All Blacks 2025
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As I remember it, there was a lot of crowing on here about how good our loose forward depth was last year pre-AB season. Then our loosies, as a unit, were consistently owned by just about everyone as far down as Argentina.
That was with incumbent world player of the year Savea and soon-to-be breakout player of the year Sititi. And generally the tighties weren't too bad either - in fact no individual was playing really that badly - the balance was just wrong.
The backs were a bit shit though. Pattern or players, whatever - if the players you pick can't play the pattern you want that's still a selection issue. Are we really going to suffer through another Beauden-Jordie-Ioane 'hi we're the backline for the world's greatest team but none of us can actually pass' year? Roigard better pick his act up too, based on his last game he'd just about make that list of can run can't pass. -
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I am genuinely curious, what do these "bold" selections actually look like? Wallace Sititi and Pasilio Tosi were both very bold picks.
See, for me this is concerning. We've got so used to mediocrity that selecting absolute stand out form players and only getting them on the field if injury strikes, is considered very bold.
Sititi showed good form, but hardly put in a body of work that said he was an All Black for the here and now. As for Tosi - was he on anyone's radar?
Sititi's performance in the semi final vs the Canes was about as obvious of a 'pick me I'm All Black material' as it gets - he was the best player on the field by a country mile.
Sure, but I'd wager he was probably already in the squad before that game. I don't think a guy gets picked for the ABs based off one game.
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look, guys like Jacobson, Havili and Blackadder are really good rugby players. On top of this, Blackadder aside, they are showing good domestic form.
My problem is, they have shown domestic form before, only to go on and prove to not be needle movers at test level. So why pick them again? what is the point? They're not different players this year, they are the same players in the same form. Picking them because experience and cover is about as conservative as you can get. They should be replaced by the new guys to see if they can be difference makers.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I am genuinely curious, what do these "bold" selections actually look like? Wallace Sititi and Pasilio Tosi were both very bold picks.
See, for me this is concerning. We've got so used to mediocrity that selecting absolute stand out form players and only getting them on the field if injury strikes, is considered very bold.
Sititi showed good form, but hardly put in a body of work that said he was an All Black for the here and now. As for Tosi - was he on anyone's radar?
Sititi's performance in the semi final vs the Canes was about as obvious of a 'pick me I'm All Black material' as it gets - he was the best player on the field by a country mile.
Sure, but I'd wager he was probably already in the squad before that game. I don't think a guy gets picked for the ABs based off one game.
It's hard for me to comment on that, maybe a Chiefs fan can shed some light, but I don't recall him playing the house down before that game. I also remember Razor saying in an interview when the initial squad was selected that a couple players shone in the playoffs that caught his eye, so to me that means Sititi made a late claim and was picked after ignore based on his block busting game against the Canes. Any excuse not to pick Sotutu as well was probably a factor and also don't forget Brayden Iose was also in the conversation after a big season before Sititi completely outplayed him.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
based on his block busting game against the Canes. ... Iose ...
I detect a pattern
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Sititi signs on through to the WC, great news for NZ Rugby.
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Some good news for the upcoming French series.
The president of the Fédération Française de Rugby (FFR) has brushed off claims of a France ‘B’ team touring New Zealand in July, giving the strongest indication yet that “exceptions are possible” for some French stars involved in the Top 14 final.
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@nzzp said in Moana Pasifika v Blues:
@KiwiMurph said in Moana Pasifika v Blues:
@booboo said in Moana Pasifika v Blues:
Who on earth has thought that "Ardie is not All Black level" in the last nine years?
Plenty suggested he didn't play that well last year. And they were right.
Definition of a straw man argument
and it drives particular balance requirements in the other two loosies.
The issue was not with Ardie, it was Ardie + Sam Cane left an awful lot for the 6 to do ... you needed peak Kaino to try to balance it up.
Our loose forwards have not been super impressive over the last few years
Yes. Our loosies have been a bit shit, less than the sum of their parts - and it all started with Foster making Cane captain, when Savea was the better 7. That forced Savea from 7 to 8, with both of them undroppable, and left us with no balance.
7 has always been his best position. -
@mariner4life There's obviously some truth in what you say, but there's also some caveats.
One is that we're never going to have 36 Richie McCaws in our squad. There's always going to be a continuum from the brilliant, to guys on the fringe who you wish were better.
But, that doesn't mean picking the next cab off the rank will be (better). There's got to be a reasonable chance that he will be - otherwise, you're just selecting someone to "give them a go", with a risk that their "difference-making" will be to lose the match for you.
It's pretty rare, IMO, that a brilliant young player gets ignored/missed for long. More likely you're shuffling the third choice and fourth choice guys.
Sometimes, you're just better off with the journeymen. Case in point, 2011 RWC Final.
The Fern would have shot Beaver and Andy Ellis into the sun if they'd had a rocket - but, in the end, they were guys who could do what was necessary.
Contrast to probably 2007 and 2019, where the bright and shiny boys didn't quite have the resilience.
And probably, the first Bok test last year, when we had the winning of the game until the last 10 minutes, when we had to roll out lots of guys with few tests between them and the Boks finished over the top of us.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life There's obviously some truth in what you say, but there's also some caveats.
One is that we're never going to have 36 Richie McCaws in our squad. There's always going to be a continuum from the brilliant, to guys on the fringe who you wish were better.
But, that doesn't mean picking the next cab off the rank will be (better). There's got to be a reasonable chance that he will be - otherwise, you're just selecting someone to "give them a go", with a risk that their "difference-making" will be to lose the match for you.
It's pretty rare, IMO, that a brilliant young player gets ignored/missed for long. More likely you're shuffling the third choice and fourth choice guys.
**Sometimes, you're just better off with the journeymen. Case in point, 2011 RWC Final.
The Fern would have shot Beaver and Andy Ellis into the sun if they'd had a rocket - but, in the end, they were guys who could do what was necessary.**
Contrast to probably 2007 and 2019, where the bright and shiny boys didn't quite have the resilience.
And probably, the first Bok test last year, when we had the winning of the game until the last 10 minutes, when we had to roll out lots of guys with few tests between them and the Boks finished over the top of us.
The journeymen were surrounded by the shinies in 2011 in McCaw, Nonu, Smith, Read, Kaino etc ... so let's not go too far down that track Mitch.
In 2007we lost two 10s in the match, and the superstar GOAT subsequently admitted that we made the error of not setting for a droppie and instead played for a penalty.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
Some good news for the upcoming French series.
The president of the Fédération Française de Rugby (FFR) has brushed off claims of a France ‘B’ team touring New Zealand in July, giving the strongest indication yet that “exceptions are possible” for some French stars involved in the Top 14 final.
Realistically how many?
Compare to an All Black Team without C, say, Chiefs and Saders.
Groot
Aumua
Lomax
Paddy T
Holland
Kirifi
Iose
Lakai
Roigard
Barrett
Clarke
Barrett
Ioane/ Proctor
Telea/Lam
Love?
?
Tosi
?
Savea / Papalii
Christie (I know)
Tavatavanawai / Lam / Tangitau / Taele -
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
Some good news for the upcoming French series.
The president of the Fédération Française de Rugby (FFR) has brushed off claims of a France ‘B’ team touring New Zealand in July, giving the strongest indication yet that “exceptions are possible” for some French stars involved in the Top 14 final.
Realistically how many?
Compare to an All Black Team without C, say, Chiefs and Saders.
Groot
Aumua
Lomax
Paddy T
Holland
Kirifi
Iose
Lakai
Roigard
Barrett
Clarke
Barrett
Ioane/ Proctor
Telea/Lam
Love?
?
Tosi
?
Savea / Papalii
Christie (I know)
Tavatavanawai / Lam / Tangitau / TaeleI think Du Pont is injured, but hopefully Romain Ntamack, Damian Penaud and Louis Bielle-Biarrey come across.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life There's obviously some truth in what you say, but there's also some caveats.
One is that we're never going to have 36 Richie McCaws in our squad. There's always going to be a continuum from the brilliant, to guys on the fringe who you wish were better.
But, that doesn't mean picking the next cab off the rank will be (better). There's got to be a reasonable chance that he will be - otherwise, you're just selecting someone to "give them a go", with a risk that their "difference-making" will be to lose the match for you.
It's pretty rare, IMO, that a brilliant young player gets ignored/missed for long. More likely you're shuffling the third choice and fourth choice guys.
**Sometimes, you're just better off with the journeymen. Case in point, 2011 RWC Final.
The Fern would have shot Beaver and Andy Ellis into the sun if they'd had a rocket - but, in the end, they were guys who could do what was necessary.**
Contrast to probably 2007 and 2019, where the bright and shiny boys didn't quite have the resilience.
And probably, the first Bok test last year, when we had the winning of the game until the last 10 minutes, when we had to roll out lots of guys with few tests between them and the Boks finished over the top of us.
The journeymen were surrounded by the shinies in 2011 in McCaw, Nonu, Smith, Read, Kaino etc ... so let's not go too far down that track Mitch.
Do you still own that half acre section at Cape Canaveral that's designated as the Andy Ellis Memorial Launchpad?
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life There's obviously some truth in what you say, but there's also some caveats.
One is that we're never going to have 36 Richie McCaws in our squad. There's always going to be a continuum from the brilliant, to guys on the fringe who you wish were better.
But, that doesn't mean picking the next cab off the rank will be (better). There's got to be a reasonable chance that he will be - otherwise, you're just selecting someone to "give them a go", with a risk that their "difference-making" will be to lose the match for you.
It's pretty rare, IMO, that a brilliant young player gets ignored/missed for long. More likely you're shuffling the third choice and fourth choice guys.
**Sometimes, you're just better off with the journeymen. Case in point, 2011 RWC Final.
The Fern would have shot Beaver and Andy Ellis into the sun if they'd had a rocket - but, in the end, they were guys who could do what was necessary.**
Contrast to probably 2007 and 2019, where the bright and shiny boys didn't quite have the resilience.
And probably, the first Bok test last year, when we had the winning of the game until the last 10 minutes, when we had to roll out lots of guys with few tests between them and the Boks finished over the top of us.
The journeymen were surrounded by the shinies in 2011 in McCaw, Nonu, Smith, Read, Kaino etc ... so let's not go too far down that track Mitch.
Do you still own that half acre section at Cape Canaveral that's designated as the Andy Ellis Memorial Launchpad?
It's fallen into disrepair after a maintenance contract was awarded to Blackadder Corp.
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@Chris-B i feel like you are arguing a point i didn't make.
Not everyone in a rugby team should be a superstar. You need a balance of flash fluffybunnies and workers.
BUT
Just because you are a "worker" doesn't mean you aren't good at core roles. If you are a loose forward worker who doesn't make dominant tackles or move bodies quickly at ruck time, then what good are you? Two of those guys i mentioned fit this to a tee. Work hard? yes. Do effective work once you get there? not so much.
Likewise a back should be able to either distribute the ball well (hand or foot), or be a strong carrier (maybe defender as well), or be fucking quick. I am not sure the back i mentioned brings any of those skills to a high standard.
Even teh workers need to be more than "solid" or that old fucking cliche "won't let you down". I think this is especially true for those earmarked as bench players.
Also Beaver absolutely sums up what i am saying. Beaver was the best 10 in the country when he got the Chiefs to the GF and made the ABs. Turns out he wasn't actually good enough at the next level though and was rightfully rissolled. He was brought back only in the most dire of emergencies, and played the ultimate "limited skillset" game to squeak the narrowest of wins. And was never seen again. The everyman's fairytale.
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@Crazy-Horse yeah tough one eh, reckon with our aging and leaving outside backs, there's got to be a punt on some newbies and what better opportunity than a touring french side? Worked wonders just over 20 years ago.
Carter would be an interesting one too, shades of Jane, his "style" might work well at test level.
French series an ideal opportunity to experiment a bit. Not just new ABs, but the likes of Love, Lakai, etc. A give players like QT & Sami T some serious game time.
Don't disagree with you, but there is the obvious problem with NZers not accepting a loss - especially to an under strength side. AB legacy and all that.
Is it actually a fact that France are going to turn up with a B side? Haven’t heard much more on this coming out of France other than what was thrown out there last year by their coach
Edit: Just scrolled down and saw the stuff article - so expect nearly a full strength team to be touring
