Best Test XI - POLL - Keeper
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@Bovidae said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Keeper:
I'd vote for Watling as well but Ken Wadsworth was rated very highly in his time. Sadly died at only 29.
The likes of Chappell & Lillie rated Wadsworth as one of the best they'd seen.
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@Godder said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Keeper:
Ian Smith - in my opinion, NZ's best keeper ever technically. Rated as the world's best during his career.
I'd go Smithy as well, because probalby the best on pure keeping ability. If we're not doing allrounders, we're probably not doing batting wicket keepers too.
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See the issue I have here is that keeping ability is so anecdotal. What evidence do we have that Smith was that much better ( if at all ) than Watling or McCullum ?
There’s a reason Adam Gilchrist gets in so many all time teams and it’s not for his work with the gloves ( indeed, lots of people say Healy was better ) but his ability to smash huge runs nice and quick down the order. We don’t have anyone like that, indeed lots of McCullums runs were made after he hung up the gloves so by that rationale I have to go with a guy who has grafted us out of the shit on numerous occasions and to my less than expert eye done a fine job behind the stumps.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Keeper:
I nominate Parore for the single fact he scored that ton in that partnership with Astle against some quality bowling. Somewhat against the trend, I reckon his keeping was world class at the end of his career.
scored two hundreds
one against Ambrose and Walsh
one against McGrath, Gillespie, Lee and Warne.
wasn't he also the one that delivered that amazing outburst at Mark Waugh? If so i would pick him just for that
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@MN5 The issue I have with you giving such importance to a guys secondary role (in this case batting) is that we are talking our All Time XI.
If our top 5 specialists bats backed up by a couple of players who are there for their key skill but do know what end of the bat to hold i.e. Not Chris Martin can't build a total that our best ever bowling attack can't defend - then why the fuck bother?
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@dogmeat said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Keeper:
@MN5 The issue I have with you giving such importance to a guys secondary role (in this case batting) is that we are talking our All Time XI.
If our top 5 specialists bats backed up by a couple of players who are there for their key skill but do know what end of the bat to hold i.e. Not Chris Martin can't build a total that our best ever bowling attack can't defend - then why the fuck bother?
when you are desperately building a case for one bloke just because he looks good in a pair of undies, you'll make all sorts of silly justifications
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@mariner4life said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Keeper:
@ACT-Crusader said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Keeper:
I nominate Parore for the single fact he scored that ton in that partnership with Astle against some quality bowling. Somewhat against the trend, I reckon his keeping was world class at the end of his career.
scored two hundreds
one against Ambrose and Walsh
one against McGrath, Gillespie, Lee and Warne.
wasn't he also the one that delivered that amazing outburst at Mark Waugh? If so i would pick him just for that
Poor old junior was also on the end of that ‘at least I’m the best player in my family’ jibe.
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@dogmeat said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Keeper:
@MN5 The issue I have with you giving such importance to a guys secondary role (in this case batting) is that we are talking our All Time XI.
If our top 5 specialists bats backed up by a couple of players who are there for their key skill but do know what end of the bat to hold i.e. Not Chris Martin can't build a total that our best ever bowling attack can't defend - then why the fuck bother?
I disagree with that.
If there’s not much between guys in terms of their key skill I’ll always pick the one who is able to provide more worth to the team in a secondary discipline.
Our mythical top order might collapse as even the best teams do. If so I want guys who can swing a bat or graft as is sometimes needed.
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@MN5 said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Keeper:
See the issue I have here is that keeping ability is so anecdotal. What evidence do we have that Smith was that much better ( if at all ) than Watling or McCullum ?
There’s a reason Adam Gilchrist gets in so many all time teams and it’s not for his work with the gloves ( indeed, lots of people say Healy was better ) but his ability to smash huge runs nice and quick down the order. We don’t have anyone like that, indeed lots of McCullums runs were made after he hung up the gloves so by that rationale I have to go with a guy who has grafted us out of the shit on numerous occasions and to my less than expert eye done a fine job behind the stumps.
Just on the OZ discussion, I’m not a fan of Healy, Haddin or Gilchrist. The player I liked as a kid and thought he was athletic behind the stumps and a good test batsman, was Wayne Phillips.
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@MN5 said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Keeper:
There’s a reason Adam Gilchrist gets in so many all time teams and it’s not for his work with the gloves ( indeed, lots of people say Healy was better ) but his ability to smash huge runs nice and quick down the order. We don’t have anyone like that, indeed lots of McCullums runs were made after he hung up the gloves so by that rationale I have to go with a guy who has grafted us out of the shit on numerous occasions and to my less than expert eye done a fine job behind the stumps.
You have to draw a line somewhere though. Why not have Bruce Edgar (who kept a test) or Bryan Young (who kept internationally several times) as the all time XI keeper - it kills two birds with one stone as second opener is probably our weakest spot behind spinner (if one is needed at all).
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@rotated said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Keeper:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Keeper:
There’s a reason Adam Gilchrist gets in so many all time teams and it’s not for his work with the gloves ( indeed, lots of people say Healy was better ) but his ability to smash huge runs nice and quick down the order. We don’t have anyone like that, indeed lots of McCullums runs were made after he hung up the gloves so by that rationale I have to go with a guy who has grafted us out of the shit on numerous occasions and to my less than expert eye done a fine job behind the stumps.
You have to draw a line somewhere though. Why not have Bruce Edgar (who kept a test) or Bryan Young (who kept internationally several times) as the all time XI keeper - it kills two birds with one stone as second opener is probably our weakest spot behind spinner (if one is needed at all).
If I was picking a keeper to open, any of Tom Latham, Watling or McCullum would be my choices over Young.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Keeper:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Keeper:
See the issue I have here is that keeping ability is so anecdotal. What evidence do we have that Smith was that much better ( if at all ) than Watling or McCullum ?
There’s a reason Adam Gilchrist gets in so many all time teams and it’s not for his work with the gloves ( indeed, lots of people say Healy was better ) but his ability to smash huge runs nice and quick down the order. We don’t have anyone like that, indeed lots of McCullums runs were made after he hung up the gloves so by that rationale I have to go with a guy who has grafted us out of the shit on numerous occasions and to my less than expert eye done a fine job behind the stumps.
Just on the OZ discussion, I’m not a fan of Healy, Haddin or Gilchrist. The player I liked as a kid and thought he was athletic behind the stumps and a good test batsman, was Wayne Phillips.
I don’t think you could get more of a contrast between dickhead and good bloke if you tried.
Aw, you mean their keeping ability ?
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@rotated said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Keeper:
You have to draw a line somewhere though.
Apparently you don’t. There are no lines given Cairns name keeps getting mentioned...
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@Godder said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Keeper:
@rotated said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Keeper:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Keeper:
There’s a reason Adam Gilchrist gets in so many all time teams and it’s not for his work with the gloves ( indeed, lots of people say Healy was better ) but his ability to smash huge runs nice and quick down the order. We don’t have anyone like that, indeed lots of McCullums runs were made after he hung up the gloves so by that rationale I have to go with a guy who has grafted us out of the shit on numerous occasions and to my less than expert eye done a fine job behind the stumps.
You have to draw a line somewhere though. Why not have Bruce Edgar (who kept a test) or Bryan Young (who kept internationally several times) as the all time XI keeper - it kills two birds with one stone as second opener is probably our weakest spot behind spinner (if one is needed at all).
If I was picking a keeper to open, any of Tom Latham, Watling or McCullum would be my choices over Young.
Well yes, but we can't just state the obvious that Watling is a better test batsman and gloveman than McCullum and lock the thread can we? Latham I would not put above McCullum in either discipline - yet.
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@MN5 I do get where you are coming from but I can sort of understand Turner's logic.
Germon had proven leadership ability and was the incumbent back-up keeper. Rutherford was the test captain but his form had fallen off a cliff so he needed replacing. Plus from memory he was out injured anyway. then there was the hang over from the SA Tour and the dope bullshit.
So a new captain was needed and there weren't exactly any obvious candidates from within the squad. Flem was too young (22?), had only just started his test career and was one of the trio of naughty boys.
Germon wasn't tainted had a decent first class record and was probably worth a punt as a Todd Blackadder type stop gap.
He was no great shakes as a keeper - prone to a howler every innings but averaged OK with the bat from memory. problem was he was seen as the teachers pet and was saddled with a couple of very precious "stars" and a team that was still infighting and who didn't trust each other. Still as a seat warmer until Fleming had a couple more birthdays he just about gets a pass.
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@dogmeat said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Keeper:
@MN5 I do get where you are coming from but I can sort of understand Turner's logic.
Germon had proven leadership ability and was the incumbent back-up keeper. Rutherford was the test captain but his form had fallen off a cliff so he needed replacing. Plus from memory he was out injured anyway. then there was the hang over from the SA Tour and the dope bullshit.
So a new captain was needed and there weren't exactly any obvious candidates from within the squad. Flem was too young (22?), had only just started his test career and was one of the trio of naughty boys.
Germon wasn't tainted had a decent first class record and was probably worth a punt as a Todd Blackadder type stop gap.
He was no great shakes as a keeper - prone to a howler every innings but averaged OK with the bat from memory. problem was he was seen as the teachers pet and was saddled with a couple of very precious "stars" and a team that was still infighting and who didn't trust each other. Still as a seat warmer until Fleming had a couple more birthdays he just about gets a pass.
Just a very dark period in NZs test history. We should all be made to look back at footage of Germon and other such greats like Matthew Hart, Darren Murray, Richard De Groen and be thankful for what we have now.
