All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.
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@taniwharugby we do have guys that can get turnovers, but we don't have anyone nearly as good at it as pocock. none of them are anywhere near as strong over the ball as he is. i just don't buy the 'we could do that if we wanted to' argument. why would hanson design a gameplan around getting breakdown turnovers if we're 2nd rate at it?
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@Crucial he's top of the turnover stats this year too.
i do recognise that he lacks the ball skills we are used to having in a 7, but what he adds is something we don't have. at present i'd pick cane ahead of him, but not savea or todd.
i would say that both pocock and savea have such different skillsets to cane that they would be better for certain gameplans / oppositions. best like for like replacement for cane would be todd. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@taniwharugby we do have guys that can get turnovers, but we don't have anyone nearly as good at it as pocock. none of them are anywhere near as strong over the ball as he is. i just don't buy the 'we could do that if we wanted to' argument. why would hanson design a gameplan around getting breakdown turnovers if we're 2nd rate at it?
But we aren't second rate. Cane is immensely strong over the ball as is Ardie. What our coaches have done though is weigh up the value that comes from turnover hunting at the expense of tackling against giving all players the skill set to take the opportunity if it arises.
Pocock's turnover skills have rarely won them games. The 2011 RWC is an obvious argument against that statement but he also got away with murder that night. He was kneeling on nearly every ruck. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@Crucial he's top of the turnover stats this year too.
For just Oz or for the whole comp?
If just for Oz then if he is topping the tackles as well for them then he has certainly changed his style.
If for the comp then it kind of backs up why the ABs don't go all out to jackal at the tackle. It doesn't win games as much as playing their way.
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@Crucial bro, compared to pocock those guys are 2nd rate at that one skill. they are far better than him in other areas, where he is 2nd (probably 3rd) rate, but that's just a fact as far as i'm concerned.
i think it was you that mentioned part of tana's contribution to nz rugby was having breakdown skills in a midfielder. i'm in total agreement about that, and i think that the ABs main advantage over other teams is the vision and handling skills of our tight forwards - i.e. i think everyone can do everything is a great approach - but i do think pocock has had a major impact on the aussies winning games - very frequently he has saved them points by turning over opposition attacking ball. once they have it of course they don't have a clue what to do with it, but that's not his fault. -
I guess the only way we would know for sure is if he played for us and we'd see how the coaches asked him to play.
I still think he is no better than an adequate international flanker with a low centre of gravity which he uses for turnovers. Yes, I would probably pick him ahead of Todd but Ardie's wider skill set would beat him out and Cane easily outranks him.
He's a one trick pony in my eyes, although very good at that one trick. -
I don't have the stats in front of me, but I presume there isn't much of a difference between the turnovers won stat on a team basis. For that very reason I don't see why you would even consider foregoing a lineout option and ball-runner for someone who might, on a good day, get you a couple of more turnovers than the other team. IMHO the benefits just don't outweigh the costs, particularly for a team like the abs.
Pocock has clearly got the memo and is trying to improve his attacking game but the results (particularly against SA) were painful to watch.
Nope Im happy to win a few less turnovers if it means my no. 7 can run, break tackles and pass, i.e. actually represent a viable attacking threat.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel cane/savea/todd have won one lineout between them so far this tournament. pocock's in no way a well-rounded player, but if you have our locks, read and kaino, then 7 doesn't need to be a lineout option. this is kinda where my opinion differs - cost vs benefit - would the costs really effect us that much? we've got no shortage of ball runners either, particularly once the bench gets involved.
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@reprobate so we'd win more games if we had Pocock
I think the balance we have works very well for us.
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@ACT-Crusader but his play at super level isnt what is being discussed is it?
I dont think his trick is as effective at International level without the other strings, his one trick seems easy enough to nullify (famous last words and all)
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@reprobate so we'd win more games if we had Pocock
Just think. If we had Pocock we would already have the tier one record because we would have a winning record above 100%
Awesome.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@Rancid-Schnitzel cane/savea/todd have won one lineout between them so far this tournament. pocock's in no way a well-rounded player, but if you have our locks, read and kaino, then 7 doesn't need to be a lineout option. this is kinda where my opinion differs - cost vs benefit - would the costs really effect us that much? we've got no shortage of ball runners either, particularly once the bench gets involved.
IIRC Retallick is used very sparingly at lineout time as well. It's a massive benefit having that extra lineout option even if he is rarely used.
I just don't see the upside here. The number of turnovers won with him vs the number won by the team as whole without him would be negligible. So you win maybe a couple more turnovers a game and sacrifice a lineout option and any attacking threat.
IMHO that's a really shit trade off.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@Rancid-Schnitzel cane/savea/todd have won one lineout between them so far this tournament. pocock's in no way a well-rounded player, but if you have our locks, read and kaino, then 7 doesn't need to be a lineout option. this is kinda where my opinion differs - cost vs benefit - would the costs really effect us that much? we've got no shortage of ball runners either, particularly once the bench gets involved.
Worth noting that Pocock has been playing at 8 as part of poopah so should be compared to lineout takes by Read. But that points more to the impact of playing him and Hoopah together.
As Rancid said I would be interested on the overall team turnover stats to see if he is making a difference to the overall stats or whether he is just getting all of them.
IMO his work with the ball is a serious weakness not just 'average'. Owen Franks has better ball skills FFS. That is a serious black mark.
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Looking at Cane & Richie over the last 3 seasons the 2 core things we are getting from our 7 is impact tackling (ie not just tackling, but hitting the guy way behind the advantage lines & hitting him very hard indeed - something Wayne Smith is big on) and carrying in the 10 channel.
Both Richie & Cane have been doing that far more than traditional pilfering a-la Kronfield or early Richie (tho' a lot like 1987-8 Michael Jones)
One of the reasons Ardie has been a bit "M'eh" in black is he lacks the ability to tackle hard & fast like Cane has. He tackles, just without the impact. Hansen wants him to add 5kg (presumably to his chest & shoulders) and that'll get him up there you'd expect.
Poccock in contrast is a very passive tackler, he rides tackles down to get up for the turnover, his tackle style is polls apart from the way the ABs are using their 7. As others have noted a big part of the AB strategy is if the first up tackler creams a guy the next guy in - regardless of who that is, has the skill set to pilfer if its on. The key skill is the creaming bit, everyone has the pilfer skill.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@ACT-Crusader but his play at super level isnt what is being discussed is it?
I dont think his trick is as effective at International level without the other strings, his one trick seems easy enough to nullify (famous last words and all)
But from my viewing he's brought that to the test arena as well as the combination with Fardy has continued to develop.
I guess I see a lot of upside with Pocock's game as a rugby fan and don't see him as a 'one trick pony' as is often touted.
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Nah I've watched a fair bit of Pocock this year - what his game lacks hurts the team more than the odd pinch adds I reckon. He's out of the game more than he's in it, plus when his strength gets shutdown he doesn't forget it and move on to focusing on other areas, he continues on and takes himself out of the game even more.
It's something I see too much of in Ardie also, a lot of hovering around, almost seems to be tackle dodging at times, waiting for a moment to spot a turnover rather than concentrating on just getting in and defending hard and accurate (if you're focused on eyeing up a turnover opp, you're often not set for a decent tackle or at all).
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@taniwharugby but with McCaw we did get turnovers. But he also had Hore, Read, Rodders, JC, Mealamu getting them as well.
Pocock has predominantly played a Lone Ranger until Fardy came along and that has seen Pocock evolve his game. That has been particularly evident at the Brumbies with more ball handling and link play in attack.
I don't know if you're being funny here, but the Brumbies have shown sweet fa when it comes to attacking play other than Pocock being at the back of a maul.
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@Bones funny as that would be more my description for Hooper. His tackle rate is fairly low for an openside and he loves that 2nd or 3rd man in play.
What I do like about Hooper is how he attacks. We all know he's got wheels, but he is pretty abrasive for a smallish unit.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
I guess I see a lot of upside with Pocock's game as a rugby fan and don't see him as a 'one trick pony' as is often touted.
I'd find seeing upside in any 28 year old player starting his 11th year of professional footy next year strange.
He is a year younger than Vito, the same age as Franks, Whitelock and Matt Todd - I hope we all have upside left in those guys too!
