Abortion
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@antipodean said in US Politics:
@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
Seems super bizarre to me. I'd say the overwhelming majority of people would agree at least on a fundamental level that abortion itself is a bad thing if not wrong.
Perhaps in Georgia. Most people I know keep their personal opinions to themselves if they don't outright support a woman's right to choose. Particularly men.
It's not a man vs woman thing. In fact studies have found that overall women are more pro-life than men, so I don't think men should feel like they can't have an opinion on this. It's a complex moral debate.
I don't see how men have a say on women's bodies, particularly women they don't know.
We live in society too, we have daughters whom we care for, we vote, we're political representatives who get voted on. It would be extremely irresponsible to not look into the issue, discuss it and try and understand it. There are extremists on both sides who refuse to take part in nuanced discussion, they shouldn't be able to control the conversation unopposed.
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@antipodean said in US Politics:
@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
Seems super bizarre to me. I'd say the overwhelming majority of people would agree at least on a fundamental level that abortion itself is a bad thing if not wrong.
Perhaps in Georgia. Most people I know keep their personal opinions to themselves if they don't outright support a woman's right to choose. Particularly men.
It's not a man vs woman thing. In fact studies have found that overall women are more pro-life than men, so I don't think men should feel like they can't have an opinion on this. It's a complex moral debate.
I don't see how men have a say on women's bodies, particularly women they don't know.
I know a bloke whose ex got an abortion against his will and it still affects him today. I don't think this is just a women's rights issue, unless your argument is that millions of pro-life women want to roll back their rights.
For what it's worth I'm pro-choice up to a point, but I'm pretty tired of the argument that men just need to shut up. It's not particularly helpful when trying to come to any kind of middle ground.
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@Siam said in US Politics:
@antipodean would that also be true of a woman, and her view on women they don't know?
Why wouldn't it?
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@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
Seems super bizarre to me. I'd say the overwhelming majority of people would agree at least on a fundamental level that abortion itself is a bad thing if not wrong.
Perhaps in Georgia. Most people I know keep their personal opinions to themselves if they don't outright support a woman's right to choose. Particularly men.
It's not a man vs woman thing. In fact studies have found that overall women are more pro-life than men, so I don't think men should feel like they can't have an opinion on this. It's a complex moral debate.
I don't see how men have a say on women's bodies, particularly women they don't know.
We live in society too, we have daughters whom we care for, we vote, we're political representatives who get voted on. It would be extremely irresponsible to not look into the issue, discuss it and try and understand it. There are extremists on both sides who refuse to take part in nuanced discussion, they shouldn't be able to control the conversation unopposed.
Nuanced discussion about what? What business is it of yours what a women does with her body, her health and well-being?
Here's how simple it is, if you're opposed to abortion, don't have one. If you're opposed to other people you don't know having an abortion, STFU.
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@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
Seems super bizarre to me. I'd say the overwhelming majority of people would agree at least on a fundamental level that abortion itself is a bad thing if not wrong.
Perhaps in Georgia. Most people I know keep their personal opinions to themselves if they don't outright support a woman's right to choose. Particularly men.
It's not a man vs woman thing. In fact studies have found that overall women are more pro-life than men, so I don't think men should feel like they can't have an opinion on this. It's a complex moral debate.
I don't see how men have a say on women's bodies, particularly women they don't know.
I know a bloke whose ex got an abortion against his will and it still affects him today. I don't think this is just a women's rights issue, unless your argument is that millions of pro-life women want to roll back their rights.
Look at it this way; what option is available to your mate? Force her to take it to term?
For what it's worth I'm pro-choice up to a point, but I'm pretty tired of the argument that men just need to shut up. It's not particularly helpful when trying to come to any kind of middle ground.
See above response to @Rembrandt
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@antipodean well then there's no one left with a valid say. A caucus of women and their friends?
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@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
Seems super bizarre to me. I'd say the overwhelming majority of people would agree at least on a fundamental level that abortion itself is a bad thing if not wrong.
Perhaps in Georgia. Most people I know keep their personal opinions to themselves if they don't outright support a woman's right to choose. Particularly men.
It's not a man vs woman thing. In fact studies have found that overall women are more pro-life than men, so I don't think men should feel like they can't have an opinion on this. It's a complex moral debate.
I don't see how men have a say on women's bodies, particularly women they don't know.
Here's how simple it is, if you're opposed to abortion, don't have one.
Having been on the less "pure" side of the issue, the above is spot on
It's way too much of a mind fuck for anybody to decipher so live and let live will always be the only solution.
In this modern world, reasonable term abortion must be an option to couples and individuals
Edit: dark pun not intended 🙂
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I guess if the guy has no right to say anything about the child he created then he should equally have no obligation to provide for a child he didn't want. His right to choose and all....
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@Siam said in US Politics:
@antipodean well then there's no one left with a valid say. A caucus of women and their friends?
It's a discussion I leave entirely to women solely because I'll never have to make that decision. Personally I'm pro-choice because I recognise the reality of the situation. A dear friend of mine for a long time is very opposed to abortion and that's her choice. I respect it.. We don't discuss it. I get involved when men start insisting they can tell women what to do with their bodies.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
I guess if the guy has no right to say anything about the child he created then he should equally have no obligation to provide for a child he didn't want. His right to choose and all....
Talking about choice, you're free to minimise your risks of conceiving. All the way to jerking off to ensure you don't have to pay child support.
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@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
I guess if the guy has no right to say anything about the child he created then he should equally have no obligation to provide for a child he didn't want. His right to choose and all....
Talking about choice, you're free to minimise your risks of conceiving. All the way to jerking off to ensure you don't have to pay child support.
And free to choose not to pay child support?
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
I guess if the guy has no right to say anything about the child he created then he should equally have no obligation to provide for a child he didn't want. His right to choose and all....
Talking about choice, you're free to minimise your risks of conceiving. All the way to jerking off to ensure you don't have to pay child support.
And free to choose not to pay child support?
No, although I concede a tremendous amount needs to be done to fix broader Family Court issues.
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@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
I guess if the guy has no right to say anything about the child he created then he should equally have no obligation to provide for a child he didn't want. His right to choose and all....
Talking about choice, you're free to minimise your risks of conceiving. All the way to jerking off to ensure you don't have to pay child support.
Your world sucks man! 😉
Turn down a sure root for a sound abortion stance? Not even a sloppy pull out strategy? 🙂
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@Siam said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
I guess if the guy has no right to say anything about the child he created then he should equally have no obligation to provide for a child he didn't want. His right to choose and all....
Talking about choice, you're free to minimise your risks of conceiving. All the way to jerking off to ensure you don't have to pay child support.
Your world sucks man! 😉
Turn down a sure root for a sound abortion stance? Not even a sloppy pull out strategy? 🙂
I got the snip.
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@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
I guess if the guy has no right to say anything about the child he created then he should equally have no obligation to provide for a child he didn't want. His right to choose and all....
Talking about choice, you're free to minimise your risks of conceiving. All the way to jerking off to ensure you don't have to pay child support.
And free to choose not to pay child support?
No, although I concede a tremendous amount needs to be done to fix broader Family Court issues.
So the guy has to accept and be responsible for his actions but not the woman?
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
I guess if the guy has no right to say anything about the child he created then he should equally have no obligation to provide for a child he didn't want. His right to choose and all....
Talking about choice, you're free to minimise your risks of conceiving. All the way to jerking off to ensure you don't have to pay child support.
And free to choose not to pay child support?
No, although I concede a tremendous amount needs to be done to fix broader Family Court issues.
So the guy has to accept and be responsible for his actions but not the woman?
That argument doesn't make sense. She has to either abort it or take it to term in which case she then has to offer it for adoption or raise it. She's still left with a choice and has to take responsibility for those actions.
What are you going to do with a guy that says "don't have an abortion" but then won't pay child support?
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@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
I guess if the guy has no right to say anything about the child he created then he should equally have no obligation to provide for a child he didn't want. His right to choose and all....
Talking about choice, you're free to minimise your risks of conceiving. All the way to jerking off to ensure you don't have to pay child support.
And free to choose not to pay child support?
No, although I concede a tremendous amount needs to be done to fix broader Family Court issues.
So the guy has to accept and be responsible for his actions but not the woman?
That argument doesn't make sense. She has to either abort it or take it to term in which case she then has to offer it for adoption or raise it. She's still left with a choice and has to take responsibility for those actions.
What are you going to do with a guy that says "don't have an abortion" but then won't pay child support?
How doesn't it make sense? If it all boils down to an absolute right to choose then why should the guy have any obligation to look after a kid he didn't want?
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
I guess if the guy has no right to say anything about the child he created then he should equally have no obligation to provide for a child he didn't want. His right to choose and all....
Talking about choice, you're free to minimise your risks of conceiving. All the way to jerking off to ensure you don't have to pay child support.
And free to choose not to pay child support?
No, although I concede a tremendous amount needs to be done to fix broader Family Court issues.
So the guy has to accept and be responsible for his actions but not the woman?
That argument doesn't make sense. She has to either abort it or take it to term in which case she then has to offer it for adoption or raise it. She's still left with a choice and has to take responsibility for those actions.
What are you going to do with a guy that says "don't have an abortion" but then won't pay child support?
How doesn't it make sense?
Because you accepted the risk of her conceiving and leaving the decision what followed to her. That's why.
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@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
I guess if the guy has no right to say anything about the child he created then he should equally have no obligation to provide for a child he didn't want. His right to choose and all....
Talking about choice, you're free to minimise your risks of conceiving. All the way to jerking off to ensure you don't have to pay child support.
And free to choose not to pay child support?
No, although I concede a tremendous amount needs to be done to fix broader Family Court issues.
So the guy has to accept and be responsible for his actions but not the woman?
That argument doesn't make sense. She has to either abort it or take it to term in which case she then has to offer it for adoption or raise it. She's still left with a choice and has to take responsibility for those actions.
What are you going to do with a guy that says "don't have an abortion" but then won't pay child support?
How doesn't it make sense?
Because you accepted the risk of her conceiving and leaving the decision what followed to her. That's why.
I thought the guy had no say in the decision. Or at least he shouldn't.
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@Siam said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
Seems super bizarre to me. I'd say the overwhelming majority of people would agree at least on a fundamental level that abortion itself is a bad thing if not wrong.
Perhaps in Georgia. Most people I know keep their personal opinions to themselves if they don't outright support a woman's right to choose. Particularly men.
It's not a man vs woman thing. In fact studies have found that overall women are more pro-life than men, so I don't think men should feel like they can't have an opinion on this. It's a complex moral debate.
I don't see how men have a say on women's bodies, particularly women they don't know.
Here's how simple it is, if you're opposed to abortion, don't have one.
Having been on the less "pure" side of the issue, the above is spot on
It's way too much of a mind fuck for anybody to decipher so live and let live will always be the only solution.
In this modern world, reasonable term abortion must be an option to couples and individuals
Edit: dark pun not intended 🙂
I do agree, though that argument doesn't wash with pro-lifers. They are against abortion because they believe human life begins at conception, so see it as murder. Technically they are correct, although there is a world of difference between a first trimester fetus and third trimester. So the question is really: at what point is abortion murder, if at all? That's a difficult question to answer, and the best we can do is either say unborn children have no rights, or we draw a somewhat (but not completely) arbitrary line around the first or second trimester.
The debate is no less polarized among women because the two sides aren't really arguing the same issue.