-
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@pakman said in US Politics:
All news to me. You seem to have kept up-to-date far better!
History degree 10 years ago.
That would have been pretty interesting. Balanced lecturers?
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@pakman said in US Politics:
I would be astounded if in 30 years Trump will be seen as the worst President ever. I can conceive of him being considered one of the worst persons ever to have been President, but that is quite a different thing, and a distinction which many of the posters here seem to find difficult to make.
Yep. LBJ would make Trump look like a quiet, respectable choir-boy by all accounts. But, apart from Vietnam, he did some amazing stuff.
I posted that historic LBJ speech a month or so ago. Wonderful. But pretty coarse fellow by all accounts.
-
@pakman said in US Politics:
That would have been pretty interesting. Balanced lecturers?
OU, loads of on-line resources. Most tutors were v. good - my modern history one was German and had actually interviewed the Baader-Meinhof gang and done her PhD on them. One was very woke and ignorant. Marked me down when I wrote about Apirana Ngata and the 28th Maori battalion being held in such high regard - i was glorifying colonialism apparently.
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@pakman said in US Politics:
That would have been pretty interesting. Balanced lecturers?
OU, loads of on-line resources. Most tutors were v. good - my modern history one was German and had actually interviewed the Baader-Meinhof gang and done her PhD on them. One was very woke and ignorant. Marked me down when I wrote about Apirana Ngata and the 28th Maori battalion being held in such high regard - i was glorifying colonialism apparently.
Good on you! Fantastical experience.
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@pakman said in US Politics:
That would have been pretty interesting. Balanced lecturers?
OU, loads of on-line resources. Most tutors were v. good - my modern history one was German and had actually interviewed the Baader-Meinhof gang and done her PhD on them. One was very woke and ignorant. Marked me down when I wrote about Apirana Ngata and the 28th Maori battalion being held in such high regard - i was glorifying colonialism apparently.
Mention of Ngata reminds me of nearly 50 years ago learning about highly successful communal Maori agriculture in first half of 20th century. Trouble is I can't remember time periods. What I do recall is that owing to epidemics and splintering of the tribal group the wealth created dissapated pretty dramatically. Ring any bells?
-
@Victor-Meldrew Yeah LBJ did enact some historic legislation and seems to be a helluva lot more effective than the Kennedy's gave him credit for despite being a 'dubious" good ol boy.
I'd be astounded if Trump goes down as the worst President. Not when you have guys like Buchanan and van Buren.
He's not even the most morally reprehensible. You don't even have to go back to the slave days. 100 years ago you had Harding.
Even in the modern era there's George W, Ford, Nixon, Carter.
Trump will probably come up in conversation, more for his mishandling of the pandemic than his many human frailties.
edit: Nixon was IMO an effective President who should have laid off the drugs and not tried to cover up Watergate. Trump could easily be seen in a similar favourable light in 50 years time. Who knows what happens next to give him some positive context. Alternatively it could be that we are in a new period of puritanism and he is looked upon as even more reprehensible
-
@pakman said in US Politics:
@Snowy said in US Politics:
@Siam said in US Politics:
If anyone thinks Biden is the man then lay out the cards and we'll analyse that argument as we have done Trump's
Lesser of two evils seems to have been the voters consensus. Biden will also be analysed, that goes without saying, every president is.
CONSENSUS?!
We were talking about Biden and he won - so amongst his voters. Not the greater group obviously.
-
Dubya did some great stuff - despite the clusterfuck of Iraq. Made the US, energy independent and his African AIDS program was, and is, a stunning achievement. Carter did some great stuff in Africa too which has been unreported, but don't know whether that was as President or not. Ford wasn't Nixon, which is a plus.
I genuinely think Obama is the weakest and most ineffective President I have seen. Utterly clueless and weak on foreign policy, made Health Care reform a partisan issue when there was cross-party support and cared more about his image than anything else. Worst of all, he simply lacked the moral courage to do the right thing when needed - his sit-on-his-hands approach to Assad's use of chemical weapons was utterly contemptable.
EDIT: Here's a great story about Jimmy Carter in 2013 fighting for AIDS releif in Africa
-
@dogmeat said in US Politics:
He's not even the most morally reprehensible. You don't even have to go back to the slave days. 100 years ago you had Harding.
Or FDR. Jessie Owens points out he was excluded from from being invited to the White House with other athletes. “Hitler didn’t snub me, he gave a friendly little salute—it was our president who snubbed me,” he said months after the Games. “The president didn’t even send me a telegram.”
And then there was his aptitude to Japanese - Americans and his plans to overthrow the Supreme Court by packing it with his yes-men.
Trump's a bit of a wimp really, in the bad-boy stakes
-
@Victor-Meldrew yeah as with my edit which took a while coz of this thing called work - the guys I mentioned were just examples. I agree re Obama and also about Carter Bush etc doing some good stuff. Ford pardoned Nixon which was pretty cynical and then had the oil crisis so was always going to struggle.
Hasn't been a really effective President in my lifetime IMO. Which says a lot about the political system.
-
@dogmeat said in US Politics:
Hasn't been a really effective President in my lifetime IMO. Which says a lot about the political system.
Not since George H W. I feel. Bit overshadowed by Ronnie, but a fairly safe pair of hands.
Bush had a wicked wit too. During the Iran-Contra scandal, the Democrats were asking what he knew about it by repeatedly asking "Where was George?, Where was George?" When Ted Kennedy joined in, Bush, obviously having had enough, flattened him by replying "At home, sober, with my wife, and with the car in the garage" Ouch.
-
@Victor-Meldrew It’s a bit of a stretch to blame Obama for making healthcare partisan isn’t it? It’s been a disaster area since at least Slick Willy‘a time. If I recall he tried to install Hillary to head up a healthcare reform group and the Republicans lost their shit.
-
@JC said in US Politics:
If I recall he tried to install Hillary to head up a healthcare reform group and the Republicans lost their shit.
I'd argue Obama was either too thick to see appointing Hilary would prevent a non-partisan approach or did it deliberately to scupper any chance of a non-partisan approach so he and the Democrats could claim all the credit.
Personally, I'd bet on the latter.
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@JC said in US Politics:
If I recall he tried to install Hillary to head up a healthcare reform group and the Republicans lost their shit.
I'd argue Obama was either too thick to see appointing Hilary would prevent a non-partisan approach or did it deliberately to scupper any chance of a non-partisan approach so he and the Democrats could claim all the credit.
Personally, I'd bet on the latter.
Obama was no duffer.
-
@JC Unpopular view on here but I don't really rate Ronnie. Lucky yes. Good times for the country Yes. I'd say an effective administration rather than President.
Probably influenced by my personal experiences living in Netherlands and UK through his terms.
Nevertheless he, LBJ and Nixon probably the .... best... in my time.
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@JC said in US Politics:
If I recall he tried to install Hillary to head up a healthcare reform group and the Republicans lost their shit.
I'd argue Obama was either too thick to see appointing Hilary would prevent a non-partisan approach or did it deliberately to scupper any chance of a non-partisan approach so he and the Democrats could claim all the credit.
Personally, I'd bet on the latter.
...so it would have been Obama being partisan...for don't doing something that would stop the Republicans from acting partisan? so if he didn't take the high road its all his fault?
-
@Victor-Meldrew I don't disagree that Obama screwed the pooch on healthcare. I guess my point was it was partisan for a long time before that though, at least as far back as Clinton's attempt in 1993. The Republicans attacked that specifically because it was likely to enhance the perception of the Democrats. It was a directly partisan attack (look up the Kristol memos). It's just not correct to think that all the partisan bullshit is all down to the Democrats.
-
@dogmeat said in US Politics:
Nevertheless he, LBJ and Nixon probably the .... best... in my time.
I'd put Reagan and LBJ top of the list in my time. Both articulated a vison and worked to it, reached out across the political divide, took risks when they needed to and seemed to relate to Joe Public
Both showed a lot of moral courage too - LBJ in facing down the racist elements in his party and Reagan standing up against anti-gay religious bigotry at considerable risk to his political career.
-
@JC said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew I don't disagree that Obama screwed the pooch on healthcare. I guess my point was it was partisan for a long time before that though, at least as far back as Clinton's attempt in 1993. The Republicans attacked that specifically because it was likely to enhance the perception of the Democrats. It was a directly partisan attack (look up the Kristol memos). It's just not correct to think that all the partisan bullshit is all down to the Democrats.
Oh, for sure. The Republicans under Gingrich were a disgrace and a bigger stain on US politics that the one on Jenifer Flowers dress.
It's just that I recall McCain and the Rep. senate leader holding out a hand which Obama either didn't see or didn't want to see.
US Politics