Exodus 2016

ulsterman

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Billy Tell" data-cid="569847" data-time="1459780252">
<div>
Nah. The Tuilagis and Vunipolas were not established Super Rugby players who were offered convenient 3 year deals by England. From memory they moved there as teenagers.
 
What your union is doing Ulsterman is looking for areas of weakness in the Irish team, then targeting Super Rugby players who have yet to wear Black or Green and offering them 3-year deals. They don't even try and hide it, these players are labelled by the IRFU themselves as "Project Players".
 
So the recent 6N saw Nathan White (OK, no Kiwis crying about this one), C J Stander, Richard Strauss, and Jared Payne all play for Ireland.
 
I think in 2017 Bundee O'Aki, Jake O'Heenan and Tom McCartney all come on board the Irish train. I think Tyler Blyendaal is also a project player, and it's all but confirmed that Jamison Gibson-Park is the next project player.
 
There will always be players who chnage country for whatever reason, and I don't have a problem with it, but the 3-years is too short, and is being cynically targeted by Ireland > Scotland > Wales.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
To be clear, I'm not defending the practice from any of the 6 Nations. Just pointing out that although England and France have less (not none) "nominally" English/French players (Hartley, Barritt, Vakatawa), they do play the system, just more often from a lower age-profile.

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="ulsterman" data-cid="569948" data-time="1459844750">
To be clear, I'm not defending the practice from any of the 6 Nations. Just pointing out that although England and France have less (not none) "nominally" English/French players (Hartley, Barritt, Vakatawa), they do play the system, just more often from a lower age-profile.</blockquote>
 
I'll jump in and suggest that most of those players for England came for reasons other than qualifying for England. Hartley was a backpacker wasn't he? Manu came with his family as a kid. Wasn't the Fijian bloke a soldier first and foremost? Etc. 
They were not previously established professional rugby players (Barritt except) who were deliverately targetted and funded by the national union for that reason. 
I've always thought the three year residency (as well as the grandparent rule) is too generous. 
Talk above about a longer residency causing those unions targetting players at a younger age creates greater risk. They may end up with a Gareth Anscombe, Tyler Blyendaal or Robbie Robinson who looked like Dan Carter at age grade but turned out to be adequate. 
Oh, and Aussie have a similar policy. It needs to curtailed.

Billy Tell

Hey, don't diss Robbie Robinson. He was pretty decent!
 
Yeah, there are a wad of U20 NZ players who go on to become extremely ordinary.
 
In the current English squad I don't think there is anyone who was targeted under a "3 year rule", although I know Nathan Hughes (Fiji) is soon eligible.
 
But Ireland more than any other country have it as an established policy. They even have rules on how many Project Players each province is allowed etc.
 
Imagine the outcry if NZ did the same to young Irish talent! (but we don't need to, so moot point...)

Unco

I'd be okay with increasing residency to 5 or 6 years for all Tier 1 teams. It's pathetic that any of the internationally competitive teams can go around poaching players from other countries domestic teams and they should be embarrassed that they need to do it in the first place.
 
Leave the three years for Tier 2+ teams though, I have nothing against teams like Japan or the US getting all the help they can to be competitive.

ulsterman

I actually think the Irish rules on provincial squad composition are the best that can be hoped for.
 
<ol><li>4 NIQ (not-Irish-Qualified) players per province. 1 of these must be uncapped and therefore nominally eligible to play for Ireland (for Ulster, the most recent are Robbie Diack, then Jared Payne, now currently Wiehahn Herbst.)</li>
<li>Can't have more than 1 NIQ player in a particular position over the 3 "big" provinces (Leinster-Ulster-Munster) - this ensures there are at least 2 IQ players starting regular top-tier European rugby. (This definition, originally from 7/8 years ago or more, is looking a little odd at the minute with Connacht outstripping at least 2 of the big 3.)</li>
<li>There's a little bit of flexibility. Connacht have more leeway as they've got less money; we recently were allowed to keep Louis Ludik on as a "project" player, when he's never going to play for Ireland, as he's a brilliant squad member.</li>
</ol> 
I do agree with you on the project time - it should be either 5 or 6 years. But for a nation with a small playing pool like Ireland, a system which aims to facilitate a small number of world- (or at least Test-) class foreign players (Piutau, Coetzee, Pienaar), leading and educating a core of indigenous talent, is ideal.

Catogrande

Ulsterman, I don't see a problem with all that as far as it relates to the provinces, just the same as I don't see any great moral issue with the English or French clubs paying stupid amounts of cash for foreign players. I do think though that any concerted effort by ANY Union to actively source players from another country is downright piss-poor and ought to be sorted out sooner rather than later, no matter which Union it may be. I'm not altogether sure about how the French national team are doing in regard to recruitment of foreign players, but so far have seen little from England in this respect. There are certain players that have qualified on residency grounds and the obscure Grandmother rule and these I reckon ought to be sorted out too. Five years not three for residency. Parents not Grandparents for qualification via family. I'm not saying here that England have been exemplary in some of their selections Barrit is perhaps moot. Hard to deny his qualification as he is a UK passport holder but, given his history I'd rather not have picked him. Waldrom is another. He moved to the UK to play in a different environment and it was found he qualified through the Grandparent rule. He was not targeted by the RFU. However, as he is a dyed in the wool Kiwi I think we were wrong to pick him. He may have been deserving in regard to his performances and he may be qualified but was it "right"? IMO, No. Same for Hughes. Great player. Will be qualified for England soon. Should he be picked? IMO No. Hartley, Vunipolas and Tuilagi I have no problems with. They've been here for ages and have made the UK their home since they were kids or adolescents. Rokoduguni - again no problem with this one. He is a soldier first and foremost. If he is allowed to die for the UK I'm more than happy to let him play international rugby for any of the UK nations. Also he was not an established player that was targeted. I have to say I'm surprised at any fan defending the Project Player thing. I'd be devastated and ashamed if the RFU did something like that. I'd also question the sense in sending out a message to any aspiring genuine players that if we get the chance and see someone better than you elsewhere, then we'll dump you at a moment's notice. It just stinks from an ethical viewpoint and from a how to treat your own players viewpoint. I honestly think that if England were stacked with a load of foreign mercenaries I would lose any desire to see them play.

Billy Tell

Catogrande you can have a thanks from me. 
You know the thing is a farce when you can play rugby for a country before you can legally be a citizen of that same country.

Unco

Gregor Paul at the Herald is has heard that SBW will be fast tracked back into the ABs straight after the Olympics and is under the impression he'll stay in NZ:
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11617469'>http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11617469</a>

pooler fan

I don't think there's too much wrong with the grandparent rule to be honest. 
One of my best friends from school in west Wales was born in Nottingham to a Welsh mum & English dad but moved to Wales when he was a toddler. He's now married to an English girl & living in Australia where his kids have been born. 
You wouldn't get a more fanatical Welsh rugby supporter & his kids are huge Wales fans too. They even have a smattering of the Welsh language which is odd with an Aussie accent. 
Without the grandparent rule would his kids be Welsh qualified ? They certainly don't think of themselves as Australian. 
People travel all over the world for work etc these days, far more than ever before which can make situations like this quite common I guess.

Wurzel

Getting ride of the grandparent rule would stuff the Samoan and Tongan teams.
 
I think World Rugby take the good with the bad when it comes to the Grandparent Rule.

kiwiinmelb

Not sure if this is the right thread but a story going around that SBW might be committing until the lions tour

Higgins

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Wurzel" data-cid="569992" data-time="1459892074">
<div>
Getting ride of the grandparent rule would stuff the Samoan and Tongan teams.
 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Perhaps not as there are still an awful lot of people born in NZ whose parents were born in the Islands thus making them eligible under the "parents" rule. I am unsure as to whether there are anything like dual citizenship sort of things available with the Pacific Islands and if there is then effectively the grandparent rule would be completely irrevelent.

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="pooler fan" data-cid="569989" data-time="1459889980">
I don't think there's too much wrong with the grandparent rule to be honest. 
One of my best friends from school in west Wales was born in Nottingham to a Welsh mum & English dad but moved to Wales when he was a toddler. He's now married to an English girl & living in Australia where his kids have been born. 
You wouldn't get a more fanatical Welsh rugby supporter & his kids are huge Wales fans too. They even have a smattering of the Welsh language which is odd with an Aussie accent. 
Without the grandparent rule would his kids be Welsh qualified ? They certainly don't think of themselves as Australian. 
People travel all over the world for work etc these days, far more than ever before which can make situations like this quite common I guess.</blockquote>
 
Really? Tough IMO. 
The grandparent rule is a farce. Really, what connection do they have with Wales? They "feel Welsh"? Apparently that doesn't qualify you.

Frye

Piss off a kid born in Australia doesn't consider themselves Australian.

pukunui

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Don Frye" data-cid="570080" data-time="1459913664">
Piss off a kid born in Australia doesn't consider themselves Australian.</blockquote>
I was born and grew up in Australia. My parents are kiwis and i have always considered myself 100% kiwi. I only have a nz passport even though i am a citizen of both countries. 
It really depends on how you are raised whether your families 'former' country is a big part of your identity or not.

MajorRage

Hmmm, dunno about that. My parents are south islanders, and I was born in the south island. But I moved to Orewa when I was 4 and stayed north ever since.
 
I consider myself a 100% North Islander.
 
Although, I'm coming up 12 year in HK and I'm moving to Surrey, UK next year so in reality I'm just a complete bastard. As well as being somebody who feels allegiance to a multitude of places.

broughie

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="570102" data-time="1459919279">
<div>
Hmmm, dunno about that. My parents are south islanders, and I was born in the south island. But I moved to Orewa when I was 4 and stayed north ever since.
 
I consider myself a 100% North Islander.
 
Although, I'm coming up 12 year in HK and I'm moving to Surrey, UK next year so in reality I'm just a complete bastard. As well as being somebody who feels allegiance to a multitude of places.
</div>
</blockquote>
Know the feeling.

Crash

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="570102" data-time="1459919279">
<div>
Hmmm, dunno about that. My parents are south islanders, and I was born in the south island. But I moved to Orewa when I was 4 and stayed north ever since.
 
I consider myself a 100% North Islander.
 
Although, I'm coming up 12 year in HK and I'm moving to Surrey, UK next year so in reality I'm just a complete bastard. As well as being somebody who feels allegiance to a multitude of places.
</div>
</blockquote>
Yup

Billy Tell

Would anyone else be a bit worried that SBW sticks around just for the Lions then heads off...annoying NgÄtai & Crotty who head overseas too...suddenly leaving us short of 12s...

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Don Frye" data-cid="570080" data-time="1459913664">Piss off a kid born in Australia doesn't consider themselves Australian.</blockquote> I guess it depends if they've got a shot of playing for Australia. Certainly I've worn the green and gold to win this country some silverware. I've got a nephew and niece born in Australia to an Australian mother and they're All Black supporters.

The Silver Fern

Exodus 2016