Hillsborough
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<p>Crucial, who in my opinion is a bloody good bugger and no slouch, erred in his first post by apportioning "mobs" and "bad behaviour" - also my opinion.</p>
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<p>I believed the crowd was at fault in some way for years, as did possibly the majority who knew of this tragedy</p>
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<p>Blameworthy or contributing are semantics and the contributing argument could be stretched to involve all manner of things from the Liverpool players (if they hadn't made it to the semis) to the weather if you really want to get theoretical.</p>
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<p>And that's the point of the 27 years these people have put in, in the hope that people don't apportion blame or contributions to the fans and those that died.</p>
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<p>Look at what a guy who has lived the 27 years of hell has to say about this very attitude:</p>
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<p><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;">Then the moment is gone. For the coroner is on to Q7: “Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?â€</span></p>
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<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;">This is not just a question of truth now: people’s lives are in the balance. To be unfairly blamed for killing people is an insult so grievous as to seriously disturb the mind. I know of one survivor, “Ianâ€, who lost a friend in pen 3. In 2007, Ian became upset about the controversy generated by the appearance of Kelvin MacKenzie on Newsnight, and a few weeks later he hanged himself. There was Stephen Whittle, who gave his match ticket to a friend, who died. In February 2011, Stephen stepped in front of an express train. Two of my mates who survived pen 3 have tried to kill themselves; both, mercifully, survived. But we know that if this next question goes against us, people will almost certainly take their own lives. The jury cannot know this, of course. I look around at Deb, at Richie, at Damian and Lou. No one looks at me.</p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;"> </p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;">The coroner: “Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? Is your answer No?â€</p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;">“It is.â€</p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;"> </p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;">People leap to their feet and punch the air. But again, momentary relief, for we are only halfway there. Now, having answered No, the jury are asked a supplementary question: <strong>was there any behaviour on the part of supporters that may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? That “may†sets the threshold so low, we fear the jury are practically being urged to find against us. As Tim Knowles said over an anguished pint a few months ago: “What kind of question is ‘May have?’ I might be found responsible for killing my friends on the basis of a vague, theoretical possibility.â€</strong></p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;"> </p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;"><strong>But there is nothing vague about will happen to us: we will be vilified once more – for ever more – by the rightwing media and the police. We will be, for the first time in an official hearing, found culpable in killing our fellow fans. It is not the jury’s fault: they have been bounced into this. But people will die on a Yes, they may have…</strong></p>
<p style="font-family:'Guardian Egyptian Web', 'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;color:rgb(118,118,118);"> </p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;">The coroner: “Was there any behaviour on the part of supporters that may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? Is your answer No?â€</p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;">I am sitting down but my knees give way. Tears are falling either side of my nose. The woman with the reassuring voice says “It is.â€</p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;">And the place erupts.</p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;"> </p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif;"><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">I think we should consider what faults we are apportioning the fans very carefully</span></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crazy Horse" data-cid="576991" data-time="1462399597"><p>
Some of you guys are harsh. Are you deliberately not understanding what Crucial is getting at? There is no way in hell he is blaming the victims.</p></blockquote>But he is blaming football fans and football clubs which I am afraid is an entirely different verdict to that of the longest inquest in UK legal history. The jury looked at the 96 Hillsborough deaths in the most thorough fashion came up with the verdict of unlawful killing based on poor policing. The fans present and Liverpool football club were not to blame for any of the Hillsborough deaths in any way.<br><br>
This is a very emotive issue indeed in the UK and in Merseyside in particular. If you are blaming football fans for Hillsborough, you need to learn more about what actually happened on 15th April 1989.<br><br>
The speeches on the link below from the House of Commons from last week might explain to those who have not been following the inquests closely some of the issues involved:<br><br><a class="bbc_url" href="https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2016-04-27/debates/16042756000001/Hillsborough#contribution-16042756000002">https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2016-04-27/debates/16042756000001/Hillsborough#contribution-16042756000002</a><br><br>
Three things went wrong: <br>- The decision to use that ground for the semi-final.<br>
- Terrible crowd management and then disaster management by the commanding officer(s) on the day.<br>
- The dreadful cover-up and smears afterwards.
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="577031" data-time="1462408100">
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<p>That's an idiotic argument: People were crushed by the crowd. If no one was there there wouldn't have been a crowd. Hence the crowd couldn't have crushed anyone.</p>
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<p>People were crushed by a poorly managed crowd. A well managed crowd wouldn't have resulted in tragedy in this instance. There have been many, many crowds at many events around the world that didn't result in the same horrid outcome.</p>
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<p>In any case that was an attempt to try and get at what I thought Crucial was saying. But the crowd was just doing what crowds do, the fault absolutely lies with the poor management and decision making.</p> -
<p>I vividly remember this on the news as an 11 year old and it certainly made me wary of big crowds. Athletic Parks with it's narrow entrance ways could have been a prime candidate for something of this nature if it had the barriers that Hillsborough had. I still have memories of going to matches in the mid 90s and everyone moving out jammed together shoulder to shoulder and thinking how unsettling it would be for really little kids or the elderly.</p>
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<p>Horrible story. The majority of those who died had zero fault - they were kids or families.</p>
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<p>I don't think Liverpool fans should be deified though. There were people there without tickets. They charged the gates all throughout the 80s.</p>
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<p>And where is the justice for those they killed at Heysel?</p>
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<p>It's good to see the victims and families get justice in this case. I find it difficult to deal with another round of self-righteousness though.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="576863" data-time="1462342560">
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<p>And there is the bane of the human condition - not having a go at you Stargazer, you correctly report an accurate observation</p>
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<p>Humans have difficulty separating unrelated events that share coincidental factors or cohorts, thus we've got racism and stereotyping as everyday behaviours.</p>
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<p>The people rightly ask for Hillsborough to be considered in isolation. </p>
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<p>Why do you think they are unrelated? Police reacted to a pattern of behaviour which was particularly poor from one football club.</p>
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<p>The cover ups and lies in the aftermatch by the police are unforgivable. They deserve to be vilified. But saying they are unrelated events is extremely ignorant. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="da_grubster" data-cid="576980" data-time="1462394093">
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<p>this always gets me when she is addressing the the crowd at a hillsborough memorial thanking Rafa Benitez. Rafa supported JFT96 hugely during his time in liverpool and this was the memorial the year after he left Liverpool</p>
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<p>Completely understandable. And explains why some let emotions get in the way of the facts.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Richie8-7" data-cid="577381" data-time="1462514199">
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<p>Horrible story. The majority of those who died had zero fault - they were kids or families.</p>
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<p>I don't think Liverpool fans should be deified though. There were people there without tickets. They charged the gates all throughout the 80s.</p>
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<p>And where is the justice for those they killed at Heysel?</p>
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<p>It's good to see the victims and families get justice in this case. I find it difficult to deal with another round of self-righteousness though.</p>
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<p>You are still missing the point. <u><strong>None of the 96 who died at Hillsborough were at fault. </strong></u></p>
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<p>No one is deifying the Liverpool fans, but the longest inquest in English legal history ruled Liverpool football club and the fans on the day were not to blame in anyway for the deaths. T</p>
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<p>Heysel and Hillsborough were two different tragedies. Heysel was caused by holliganism, Hillsborough was caused by bad crowd and disaster management.</p>
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<p>Please stop spreading smears.</p> -
<p>And why do you think police at Hillsborough did not trust the behaviour of Liverpool fans?</p>
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<p>Do you think it's possible they had a pattern of charging gates without tickets? And charging opposition fans (causing death at Heysel)?</p>
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<p>None of the 96 deserved to die. Have said that a few times now. But it is massively constipated thinking to look at Hillsborough as a completely independent event.</p>
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<p>A common trait, especially from those who have limited understanding of English football in the 80s.</p> -
These were the judgements of the jury who spent many years looking into these tragic matters.<br><br><a class="bbc_url" href="https://hillsboroughinquests.independent.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/General-jury-questionnaire-FINAL-54004274_1.pdf">https://hillsboroughinquests.independent.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/General-jury-questionnaire-FINAL-54004274_1.pdf</a><br><br><a class="bbc_url" href="https://hillsboroughinquests.independent.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Individual-questionnaires-Final.pdf">https://hillsboroughinquests.independent.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Individual-questionnaires-Final.pdf</a>
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South Yorkshire Police acted in a manner they were accustomed to before (Orgreave) and since (Rotherham Abuse Scandal). There were plenty of dangerous stadia in England at the time, without a tragedy like this. The cover up afterwards was insidious.<br><br>
The fan behaviour line gets trotted out all the time by those with seemingly little grasp of crowd dynamics. -
I'm fully aware of English football hooliganism thanks.
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Richie8-7" data-cid="577386" data-time="1462515315">
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<p>And why do you think police at Hillsborough did not trust the behaviour of Liverpool fans?</p>
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<p>Do you think it's possible they had a pattern of charging gates without tickets? And charging opposition fans (causing death at Heysel)?</p>
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<p>None of the 96 deserved to die. Have said that a few times now. But it is massively constipated thinking to look at Hillsborough as a completely independent event.</p>
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<p>A common trait, especially from those who have limited understanding of English football in the 80s.</p>
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<p>As a recollection, Liverpool fans in the 80's were not excessively involved in rampant hooliganism. The Heysel disaster was a stand out of course but there are two elements in that that need to be taken into account. Firstly most of Liverpool's hooligan issues were on away trips in Europe. The pattern you allude to was mostly opportunistic travelling hooligans that were not usually evident away from such games. Secondly although it was the Liverpool fans that pulled down the fences at Heysel, this was because they were getting crushed in a very small area where too many had been crammed in. The tearing down of the fences triggered the fighting between the fans which in turn led to a wall collapsing in the dilapidated stadium. Whilst it is true to say the behaviour of the fans contributed to the tragedy the common link between here and Hillsborough is two-fold. A poorly maintained, out of date stadium and poor crowd control/policing.</p>
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<p>It is true that English football in the 80s had a God awful rep for hooliganism but this was not as widespread as one might think. The incidents were very bad but also quite random. It appeared that much of the problem was being caused by trailing "fans" that did not actually actively support "their club". One of the worst reps was held by Milwall FC and there were several instances of horrific hooliganism. Mostly at away matches and mostly where the travelling support was actually higher than the average at home games. </p>
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<p>So if the South Yorkshire Police were acting due to a pattern of behaviour in Liverpool fans, then they were looking at the wrong bloody pattern.</p> -
<p>Margin_Walker what you're not aware of is Richie8-7 is obviously the resident expert on soccer hooliganism during the 1980s and specifically Liverpool's history. After all based on your <strike>numerous posts</strike> <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/rugby/index.php/topic/41976-hillsborough/page-3#entry577394'>one post</a> you're clearly ignorant despite pointing out what the jury found after two years of hearing evidence.</p>
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He's busy making a dick of himself on a couple of threads
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="577429" data-time="1462522134">
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<p>He's busy making a dick of himself on a couple of threads</p>
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<p>I was assuming that kind of behaviour would suggest he was drunk , but its only about 5:30 in Melbourne isn't it?</p> -
What's wrong with that?