Orlando shooting + terrorism thread
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="590856" data-time="1466678102">
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<p>I tend not to give unverifiable claims any credence.</p>
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<p>True, and thats exactly why I bolded it, if only the same level of credence were given to him being an ISIS sleeper... when you actually look at the evidence as to the motive <em>neither</em> side is locked on, but the gay revenge motive has a hell of a lot more going for it (<em>from a purely evidential basis</em>) than ISIS. But ISIS fits a political narrative in the US right now & an agenda for a few posters. </p>
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<p>Lets face it "I'm a member of Hamas & AQ!" sets off a lot of knee jerks, but only in people who have a very poor undersatanding of the radical islam they are so outraged by. For people who actually have a vague idea it raises a "sorry? WTF!" moment.</p>
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<p>Noticable that in the US Obama & Clinton focused on the gay angle. Trump utterly ignored it & went political Islam.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="590862" data-time="1466679185"><p>
Lets face it "I'm a member of Hamas & AQ!" sets off a lot of knee jerks, but only in people who have a very poor undersatanding of the radical islam they are so outraged by. For people who actually have a vague idea it raises a "sorry? WTF!" moment.<br></p></blockquote>
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Wait - you mean the same organisations that, along with the Taliban, are on the ISIS "People We'd Like To Kill More Than Infidel Westerners Because They're Muslims Who Don't Accept Our Caliphate" shit list?<br><br>
Next you'll be telling me you're geopolitically aware or something! -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="590854" data-time="1466677666">
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<p>That's not actually the bit I was believing, but I see why you leapt on it like a fat kid on cake. And completly ignored the bit about him maybe not being an ISIS sleeper & actually being a gay guy outraged at being given HIV by a Latino.... cause if that came out as true all your rants on here about Trump being right would be a bit silly eh.</p>
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<p>Nice to see under the slightest bit of critique you resort to just making shit up. It is just so incredibly predictable. care to point out where I have ranted about Trump being right? No of course you wont, because it is just the Gollum way to make up verbose nonsense.. and then when criticised for his nonsense.. just make stuff up to argue against. </p> -
<p>Following a religion and ideology that tells you to hate and murder gays.. whilst actually being a gay.. that is a tough road to follow.</p>
<p>Could be that the religion is just monumentally shit and nasty.</p>
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<p>But of course the apologists couldn't possibly admit that...</p> -
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="590862" data-time="1466679185">
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<p>True, and thats exactly why I bolded it, if only the same level of credence were given to him being an ISIS sleeper... when you actually look at the evidence as to the motive <em>neither</em> side is locked on, but the gay revenge motive has a hell of a lot more going for it (<em>from a purely evidential basis</em>) than ISIS. But ISIS fits a political narrative in the US right now & an agenda for a few posters. </p>
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<p>Lets face it "I'm a member of Hamas & AQ!" sets off a lot of knee jerks, but only in people who have a very poor undersatanding of the radical islam they are so outraged by. For people who actually have a vague idea it raises a "sorry? WTF!" moment.</p>
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<p>Noticable that in the US Obama & Clinton focused on the gay angle. Trump utterly ignored it & went political Islam.</p>
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<p>Who said he was an ISIS sleeper? The issues around his sexuality due to the fucked up ideology he was raised to believe was pretty obviously the motive for his attack. If he wasn't raised following that ideology it is likely he wouldn't have committed such a heinous act.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="590918" data-time="1466723027">
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<p>Who said he was an ISIS sleeper? The issues around his sexuality due to the fucked up ideology he was raised to believe was pretty obviously the motive for his attack. If he wasn't raised following that ideology it is likely he wouldn't have committed such a heinous act.</p>
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<p>Nobody needs to have said it for Gollum to attack people for saying it......</p> -
<p>If he just wanted to massacre gay Latinos why stake out Disney Land? Do gay Latinos like hanging out there?</p>
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<p>The Judean People's Front and the People's Front of Judea may hate each other but someone may still support both of them for their desire to kill Romans.</p>
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<p>Same with the various Islamic Nutter groups. A fanatic who just wants to kill Western infidels isn't really going to give a shit about the geopolitical differences of these groups. They want him to kill infidels and that's good enough for him.</p> -
<a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-gay-fbi-20160623-snap-story.html">FBI investigators say they have found no evidence that Orlando shooter had gay lovers</a><br><br><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote"><p>On Tuesday, Univision aired a report in which “Miguel,†a man wearing a disguise to conceal his identity, alleged he had sex with Mateen after meeting him on the gay dating app, Grindr. He said Mateen had sex with other men too, including a threesome with a Puerto Rican who allegedly told Mateen, after having had unprotected sex with him, that he was HIV positive.<br><br>
But investigators do not consider the man’s account credible, according to one senior law enforcement official with access to the investigation.</p></blockquote> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="590894" data-time="1466714400">
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<p>Following a religion and ideology that tells you to hate and murder gays.. whilst actually being a gay.. that is a tough road to follow.</p>
<p>Could be that the religion is just monumentally shit and nasty.</p>
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<p>But of course the apologists couldn't possibly admit that...</p>
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<p>and yet somehow most of them don't murder gays. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="591181" data-time="1466755972"><p>and yet somehow most of them don't murder gays.</p></blockquote>
Do you mean just those in Western countries? Do you include people in say, Saudi Arabia, in that statement? I wonder what would happen if we held a gay pride parade there. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="590956" data-time="1466728710">
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<p>Same with the various Islamic Nutter groups. A fanatic who just wants to kill Western infidels isn't really going to give a shit about the geopolitical differences of these groups. They want him to kill infidels and that's good enough for him.</p>
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<p>I'd agree if he implied he just liked them, but he didn't, he claimed he was affiliated with both. Which is like saying you are a member the KKK & also the Black Panthers.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="591186" data-time="1466757524">
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<p>Do you mean just those in Western countries? Do you include people in say, Saudi Arabia, in that statement? I wonder what would happen if we held a gay pride parade there.</p>
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<p>Or even Turkey, where they agressively shut down a pro gay march last week. Turkey, Nato member, key part of war on Terror, country on the (not very) fast track to EU membership... </p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="590956" data-time="1466728710">
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<p>If he just wanted to massacre gay Latinos why stake out Disney Land? Do gay Latinos like hanging out there?</p>
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<p>You ever been to Disneyland Orlando? Its literally gay heavan. And smack in the middle of the little Havana / Purto Rico section of the US... fat todlers & flaming latinos as far as the eye can see, all losing their shit over princess dress up</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="591181" data-time="1466755972">
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<p>and yet somehow most of them don't murder gays. </p>
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<p>Yes but despite their religion, not because if it....</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="591193" data-time="1466760708">
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<p>Yes but despite their religion, not because if it....</p>
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<p>indeed. and the strongest opposition to gay rights in western christian countries comes from christians, but there we are talking about peaceful first word places so it's a tad toned down.. except for the 3rd world violent country christians of course, they're less polite.</p>
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<p>no doubt you'll call me an apologist. i'm not, i think religious people are nutters. but the issue is really combining nuttiness with people having backgrounds of acceptance of violence, poverty, and accessibility to weapons. buzzfeed is a heap of shit, (and so is arguing by anecdote for that matter) but when you meet people like this it makes tarring all muslims with the same brush a bit ridiculous:</p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.buzzfeed.com/robstott/this-legendary-muslim-migrant-is-saving-the-world-one-meal-a?utm_term=.drq1Nq43K#.owW5d2oEP'>https://www.buzzfeed.com/robstott/this-legendary-muslim-migrant-is-saving-the-world-one-meal-a?utm_term=.drq1Nq43K#.owW5d2oEP</a></p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="591186" data-time="1466757524">
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<p>Do you mean just those in Western countries? Do you include people in say, Saudi Arabia, in that statement? I wonder what would happen if we held a gay pride parade there.</p>
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<p>yes, i very much reckon that most people in saudi arabia haven't murdered a gay. gays are a minor concern in the scheme of things in most of those places anyway, they could start by treating women properly, that's a much bigger % of the population. gay pride parades in russia and quite a few other non-muslim countries / communities wouldn't fly either.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Tim" data-cid="591083" data-time="1466739207">
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<p><a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-gay-fbi-20160623-snap-story.html">FBI investigators say they have found no evidence that Orlando shooter had gay lovers</a><br>
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<br><br><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="591220" data-time="1466766473"><p>yes, i very much reckon that most people in saudi arabia haven't murdered a gay. gays are a minor concern in the scheme of things in most of those places anyway, they could start by treating women properly, that's a much bigger % of the population. gay pride parades in russia and quite a few other non-muslim countries / communities wouldn't fly either.</p></blockquote>
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The reason most people in Saudi Arabia haven't killed any gay people is because it would be fucking suicidal to be openly gay, so on the surface it would appear that nobody that lives there is gay. And I'm not sure what your point is re Russia and other countries - my argument is not that Islam is the ONLY fucked up ideology. Just that it is a fucked up, barbaric ideology that drives people to committ atrocities. I don't know why that's hard to admit. I'm not attacking Muslims (every time I attack an idology I get accused of making personal attacks on people which I am not), I'm attacking Islam the ideology. It played a significant role in both this recent shooting and countless other human rights atrocities that are committed around the world every day. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="591220" data-time="1466766473">
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<p>indeed. and the strongest opposition to gay rights in western christian countries comes from christians, but there we are talking about peaceful first word places so it's a tad toned down.. except for the 3rd world violent country christians of course, they're less polite.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>no doubt you'll call me an apologist. i'm not, i think religious people are nutters. but the issue is really combining nuttiness with people having backgrounds of acceptance of violence, poverty, and accessibility to weapons. buzzfeed is a heap of shit, (and so is arguing by anecdote for that matter) but when you meet people like this it makes tarring all muslims with the same brush a bit ridiculous:</p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.buzzfeed.com/robstott/this-legendary-muslim-migrant-is-saving-the-world-one-meal-a?utm_term=.drq1Nq43K#.owW5d2oEP'>https://www.buzzfeed.com/robstott/this-legendary-muslim-migrant-is-saving-the-world-one-meal-a?utm_term=.drq1Nq43K#.owW5d2oEP</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>yes, i very much reckon that most people in saudi arabia haven't murdered a gay. gays are a minor concern in the scheme of things in most of those places anyway, they could start by treating women properly, that's a much bigger % of the population. gay pride parades in russia and quite a few other non-muslim countries / communities wouldn't fly either.</p>
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<p>I think since we have been discussing Islam on here one of the crucial points most of us who have criticised Islam have made is that we are criticising the doctrine of Islam. We are not criticising all Muslims. The doctrine at its core is bad in many ways and good in a few ways too. This does not mean that everyone who says they subscribe to that doctrine is bad. People would only be bad if they tried to implement that exact doctrine.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Tim" data-cid="591221" data-time="1466766684">
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Tim" data-cid="591083" data-time="1466739207">
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<p><a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-gay-fbi-20160623-snap-story.html">FBI investigators say they have found no evidence that Orlando shooter had gay lovers</a><br>
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<p>Buried 10 paragraphs down (and very much not the headline), is also this - </p>
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<p>"But law enforcement sources did say that investigators have not uncovered any direct links between Mateen and members of Islamic State."</p> -
<p>Oh dear god. He was a failure-man who dedicated his slaughter to them. He was from an Islamist family. I am not arguing that he was a networked member of ISIS, but it is pretty clear that he committed his crimes with at least a clear claim to be doing them in the name of a radical islamic group, with radical islamic justification for what he did.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Tim" data-cid="591238" data-time="1466769532">
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<p>Oh dear god. He was a failure-man who dedicated his slaughter to them. He was from an Islamist family. I am not arguing that he was a networked member of ISIS, but it is pretty clear that he committed his crimes with at least a clear claim to be doing them in the name of a radical islamic group, with radical islamic justification for what he did.</p>
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<p>He was a fantasist who told people he was a member of various islamic groups (which he very much wasn't), he did very much pledge on the night he was doing it for ISIS. Those are literally the only 2 facts that are concrete.</p>
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<p>You read back on this thread - and look at the press in the US, you'd think he was a card carrying member of ISIS working some Islamist master plan.</p>
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<p>I'm not for a minute saying Islam had zero role in this, I'm saying the desperation to claim it is at fault 100% and this should justify a new war on Islam is WAY overboard & being (understandably) leapt on by those who stand to gain (Trump etc), those who want to justify their own views on the world & those too stupid to be able to grasp facts versus tweets.</p>
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<p>And the reporting is terrible. How is "we can't find any links at all to ISIS" <em>not </em>a story but "Didn't have Grindr on his phone!" is? </p>