-
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="599033" data-time="1469192016">
<div>
<p>So you're positive that 20% voted because of Turks and NHS? Is that a fact or just your opinion? Norway voted no to the EU twice. Is that because of stupid or badly informed voters or because people had genuine concerns about joining the EU?<br><br>
Perhaps it's best to wait a bit and find out exactly what form Brexit will take before passing judgement? Not to mention the long-term ramifications for the UK economy.<br><br>
As for the PC thing, you clearly didn't even read what I wrote.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>FFS Rancid, jumping on the 20% thing is a bit of a poor argument. Smeagol, sorry Gollum did say as an example, "so if 20%..."</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As for the Norway argument I never quite see the rationale for pointing out how the EU does or does not affect another country. It is nowhere near the same, plus for every example you can think of that paints EU membership in a good/bad light, you can easily cite any number of others that paint it in a bad/good light. It's just not relevant.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>There is plenty that is wrong with our membership of the EU and plenty that is just plain wrong with the EU itself, whether or not we will be better off out or not, I just don't know. Nor do I yet know whether we will actually leave. All I can be sure of is that this whole referendum thing has been incredibly divisive, ill planned and has been campaigned in an absolutely bloody awful manner.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I can say for sure that we are not in a better position for having the referendum and that it has not improved many people's views on our politicians veracity.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="598722" data-time="1469153674">
<div>
<p>Be morally reprehensible to not follow through on the referendum. There would be a backlash the likes of which would not have been seen in the UK in centuries... and rightfully so.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>No different to the UK voting to remain and then a majority of MP's vote to leave anyway. Can you imagine the reaction??? The tantrum that would have followed about the death of democracy?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>You're spot on here Baron. The referendum is the genie that you cannot put back in the bottle. To me it just beggars belief that Cameron ever thought it would be a good idea for him.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="599034" data-time="1469192457">
<div>
<p>No, not all. But I am positive that a lot of people voted for something that cannot be delivered & were lied to. And thats not a good basis for stable democracy. It is going to dawn on those people in the next 2 years that the Poles aren't leaving, in fact they are still coming. That the NHS ain't getting that cash (to be fair that dawned on them the day after) etc.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I honestly can't comment on Norway as I don't know what was on offer, nor have I had 2 weeks of telly of people saying why they voted in Norway.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Great. That is your opinion. Lots of the remain camp have the same opinion. But the thing they dont realise is that they only speak for themselves, they dont get to tell others what they voted for and what motivated them. All these claims of why people voted are just made up nonsense from the arrogant.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Nobody yet knows how the negotiations will pan out, Catogrande is correct, comparing to other countries is just a waste of time. This situation is unchartered waters. In fact the scaremongering about this is in my opinion the worst lie in the whole debate.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="599038" data-time="1469194082">
<div>
<p>Really? Now you are saying if the new reports on the TV (ALL the news reports) say something its probably wrong? Isn't that Wingers stance? I get you are just trying to toss in a snide throwaway, but thats pretty tinfoil hat.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Especially as you've dodged actual valid points like the PMI indicators & what scare mongering Remain did that compares to Brexit...</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Yes invoke Winger, that certainly makes you the bigger man.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>My point is that saying you saw stuff on the telly doesn't prove your assertion that leave won because their voters were stupid and uninformed. 16.8 million people voted leave. When you get a number that high saying that Turks and NHS money were the decisive factors is more than a little simplistic. You're also talking as if you know exactly what form Brexit will take. So how can you say people were fooled or didn't get what they want when nothing has even been decided yet?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And I haven't dodged anything. I said perhaps it would be sensible to wait and see how this thing pans out before making judgements. Call that Winger-like if you want. I call it common fucking sense.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="599042" data-time="1469201898">
<div>
<p>FFS Rancid, jumping on the 20% thing is a bit of a poor argument. Smeagol, sorry Gollum did say as an example, "so if 20%..."</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As for the Norway argument I never quite see the rationale for pointing out how the EU does or does not affect another country. It is nowhere near the same, plus for every example you can think of that paints EU membership in a good/bad light, you can easily cite any number of others that paint it in a bad/good light. It's just not relevant.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>There is plenty that is wrong with our membership of the EU and plenty that is just plain wrong with the EU itself, whether or not we will be better off out or not, I just don't know. Nor do I yet know whether we will actually leave. All I can be sure of is that this whole referendum thing has been incredibly divisive, ill planned and has been campaigned in an absolutely bloody awful manner.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I can say for sure that we are not in a better position for having the referendum and that it has not improved many people's views on our politicians veracity.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>FFS Cato, he's pretty adamant that those were the decisive factors that put leave over the top. I'm simply asking him to prove it beyond vague references to having watched it on the telly.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I mentioned Norway because it shows that people do not just vote against the EU based on xenophobia and stupidity or because the dumb plebs are just uninformed.</p> -
<p>there is a major and valid general issue here though: politicians should be held to some sort of standard in terms of the truth of their advertising.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>if they can say whatever the fuck they want, there is no democracy because people are not getting what they voted for.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>trump's wall to keep out mexicans paid for by mexicans comes to mind.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>the EU vote is a funny situation too, because the people who 'won' are not the people who get to implement anything at all. in fact the person who resigned because he didn't want to leave has been replaced with someone who also did not want to leave.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>it's a bit of a farce really that 'leave' could campaign on absolutely anything at all, but have no accountability or even ability to deliver anything; any promises they made were necessarily false.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="599077" data-time="1469229373">
<div>
<p>there is a major and valid general issue here though: politicians should be held to some sort of standard in terms of the truth of their advertising.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>if they can say whatever the fuck they want, there is no democracy because people are not getting what they voted for.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>trump's wall to keep out mexicans paid for by mexicans comes to mind.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>the EU vote is a funny situation too, because the people who 'won' are not the people who get to implement anything at all. in fact the person who resigned because he didn't want to leave has been replaced with someone who also did not want to leave.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>it's a bit of a farce really that 'leave' could campaign on absolutely anything at all, but have no accountability or even ability to deliver anything; any promises they made were necessarily false.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>That is a heck of a lot of opinion masquerading as fact.</p>
<p>Voters have always understood that politicians make promises to try and do things. Look at the promises Obama made.... he made a good attempts at some.. but was blocked. Shit happens like that and voters understand, they want the people they vote into fight for what they have promised. The remain camp 'lied' about numerous things as well.I would say far more seriously and demonstrably than the leave campaign.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The vote was not a farce.. The people spoke and the politicians now have the job to implement it.</p> -
<p>Lol ... Bob Jones is hilarious.</p>
<p> </p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> </p>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><span style="font-size:14px;">“My life is ruined,†cried a marcher to the television interviewer. It could have been worse. She might have had the terrible misfortune to be born in Canada, the US, Australia, Japan or New Zealand and endured the grinding poverty borne by those non-EU nations’ inhabitants.In the subsequent furore a NZ Herald correspondent proposed that older folk should not have been allowed to vote on a decision that largely affects the young, because their lives are almost over. On face value that’s a logical argument but why stop at Brexit? The same reasoning applies equally to our elections, except that a few problems arise.</span></p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><span style="font-size:14px;">First, throughout the western world since the turn of the century, the young (and the economic under-class, inaccurately blamed for Brexit) no longer vote in general elections. For example, unsurprisingly, the lowest Brexit turn-out in age sectors, specifically 36%, came from the 18-24 year olds, now griping about the outcome.</span></p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> </p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><span style="font-size:14px;">In my view that recent years non-voting by the young and the underclass is an excellent development as both groups share two behavioural traits, being laziness and ignorance. Far better they carry on with their primary concerns, respectively Facebook and the pub. And if you think that’s harsh on the working class, then consider one hard fact. That is that the main distinguishing point work-wise, between the so-called working class and the prosperous middle class folk is that the latter work much longer hours, a key factor in their relative prosperity.</span></p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><span style="font-size:14px;">I won’t bore you by re-litigating the Brexit issues other than to say there were four principal considerations, each with emphatic, albeit opposing, sensible Leave or Remain outcomes. I was in Britain a week before the vote and concluded that if I were a Brit, I’d vote for Brexit.</span></p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> </p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><span style="font-size:14px;">The fear-mongering by the Remain camp was frequently insultingly dishonest, descending to a hysterical level with David Cameron’s third world war warning should Britain leave. So too Chancellor George Osborne with his ‘Vote Brexit and I’ll have to immediately lift taxes’ threat. They did and a week later he announced he was going to lower corporate taxes to 15%, drawing cries from the Continent of creating a tax haven. And it was that never discussed tax factor, that was my ultimate reason for siding with Brexit.</span></p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><span style="font-size:14px;">In the pursuit of competition governments come down hard on monopolistic activity and its price-fixing offspring, with heavy penalties for offenders. But they don’t apply this worthy objective to themselves. Indeed, a week before the Brexit vote, Cameron attended a multi-nation conference aimed at combatting tax havens. Bogus nominal headquarters on a tropical island is one thing but multi-government de facto conspiracies to establish uniform punitive tax regimes, an inevitable evolution with the EU’s historic undemocratic, imperialistic trending, is quite another. Indeed we’re currently seeing the value of tax competition in our neck of the woods.</span></p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><span style="font-size:14px;">[…] So too the nonsense about post-Brexit Britain no longer having any say in rule-making pertaining to its exports into the EU nations. For God’s sake, Britain exports to at least 150 nations outside the EU and is subject to rules it has no say in. It exports to New Zealand and must comply with our various product safety, quality, content, labelling, health standards, and other dictates, all sensible, doubtless similar to their own and presenting no difficulties.My view is that after an initial untidy post-Brexit period, Britain will boom. And if that leads to an independent Scotland, as I doubt but would like, then both new countries will thrive apart.</span></p>
<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><span style="font-size:14px;">I especially like Scotland’s prospects as an independent nation for reasons irrelevant to this article. Furthermore, I’ve put my money where my mouth is, we having opened the first of our two planned offices in Glasgow and Edinburgh, and bought our first office building there. We’ll lose one tenant, namely the Bank of England, if Scotland breaks away but that’s neither here nor there in what I foresee as a golden age ahead. And a golden age for my company as we exploit the inevitable Funds and Institutional panic and relieve them of their buildings at give-away prices.</span></p>
<p> </p>
</blockquote> -
<p>I had missed Cameron saying that a Brexit could lead to WW3.. </p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/08/cameron-brexit-will-increase-risk-of-europe-descending-into-war/'>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/08/cameron-brexit-will-increase-risk-of-europe-descending-into-war/</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>What were you guys saying about dishonest claims?</p> -
"The serried rows of white headstones in lovingly tended Commonwealth war cemeteries stand as silent testament to the price this country has paid to help restore peace and order in Europe.<br><br>
"Can we be so sure that peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking? I would never be so rash as to make that assumption."<br><br>
Who was it running the scare campaign again? The hypocrisy is astonishing. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="599082" data-time="1469230307">
<div>
<p>That is a heck of a lot of opinion masquerading as fact.</p>
<p>Voters have always understood that politicians make promises to try and do things. Look at the promises Obama made.... he made a good attempts at some.. but was blocked. Shit happens like that and voters understand, they want the people they vote into fight for what they have promised. The remain camp 'lied' about numerous things as well.I would say far more seriously and demonstrably than the leave campaign.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The vote was not a farce.. The people spoke and the politicians now have the job to implement it.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>how so?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>there is a major difference between a politician promising something, getting elected and failing to do it and a referendum where nobody gets elected and no campaign could <em>ever </em>have implemented any promise they made because they will not be in control of those decisions regardless of the result; this applies to both sides.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>frankly i don't think there should have been any campaigning whatsoever. it's a referendum, not an election, and the focus should have been on dispassionate voter education.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="599070" data-time="1469225359">
<div>
<p>FFS Cato, he's pretty adamant that those were the decisive factors that put leave over the top. I'm simply asking him to prove it beyond vague references to having watched it on the telly.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I mentioned Norway because it shows that people do not just vote against the EU based on xenophobia and stupidity or because the dumb plebs are just uninformed.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>OK mate fair point on No1 and to an extent on No2.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>We will all have our view on stay or go and probably will not move on this until all the shitstorm has cleared. I voted to remain because I prefer a degree of certainty or at least a "devil you know" type of certainty to the total opposite. The thing that puts the sand in my panties over all this though is not the result, not even the blatant lies and absolute bollocks spouted by both sides but the stupidity of how the thing was managed and the fact (as reprobate said above) that those who "won" don't have to impleemnt the decision and have pretty much run away from any responsibility. Of course I'm not surprised at this at all, not even disillusioned, just plain tired of it all really. I'm hoping against all hope that Theresa May actually has some balls and stands up for something. Anything really (almost), just so we can get some fucking direction.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="599069" data-time="1469225009">
<div>
<p>Yes invoke Winger, that certainly makes you the bigger man.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>My point is that saying you saw stuff on the telly doesn't prove your assertion that leave won because their voters were stupid and uninformed. 16.8 million people voted leave. When you get a number that high saying that Turks and NHS money were the decisive factors is more than a little simplistic. You're also talking as if you know exactly what form Brexit will take. So how can you say people were fooled or didn't get what they want when nothing has even been decided yet?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>I'm astonished by people not living in the UK, not reading, watching or hearing the pre & post Brexit interviews categoriocally sayinbg there were a lot of reasons, and EU movement of people wasn't the core driver</p>
<p> </p>
<p>From the Times this weekend -</p>
<p> </p>
<p>‘Why do they give all our jobs to foreigners?’ </p>
<p>Brexit.Andrew Norfolk visits Grimethorpe in South Yorkshire, where anger over immigration drove voters to choose Brexit</p>
<p>2059 words</p>
<p> </p>
<p>He barely raises his head to explain, almost apologetically, that “You just feel let down by how things have happened around hereâ€. Asked why he voted Leave, there is a brief glance up to make eye contact. The gaze is one of defiance, tinged with a hint of despair. “Why not? We’ve tried everything else.†The former miner lives in a South Yorkshire village that our nation left behind. In the EU referendum, it hit back. To spend a day in Grimethorpe was to begin to understand why so many people in Labour’s northern heartlands chose Brexit. And why Ukip is licking its lips. A few locals said that they voted Out to kick the Tories; to stick a finger up to “the rich and the eliteâ€.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Others wanted to “take back our islandâ€. Some seemingly yearned to rewind history, to return to a past that no longer exists. O<em><strong>verwhelmingly, however, the voters of Grimethorpe went to their local polling stations — in numbers unprecedented in recent years — to signal anger, confusion, bitterness and fear about a single, dominant issue. In this almost all-white village of 4,500 people, five miles from Barnsley, last month’s referendum was all about immigration</strong></em>. More specifically, although residents young and old tended to put it rather more bluntly, their votes were their verdict on the impact of <strong><em>EU freedom of movement rules on English communities where, according to one Labour MP,</em></strong> “a lot of my people have never even been to Londonâ€. For an explanation, one need look no further than the former site of Grimethorpe colliery. On its grave stands a giant industrial park whose two biggest companies employ hundreds of recent arrivals from eastern Europe. They came to the UK because jobs in Grimethorpe were advertised in Poland and Romania. Many villagers feel cast aside in favour of unskilled, low-wage migrant workers who speak no English.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>They do not think that is fair. Big northern cities such as Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool, which all voted Remain, have found it easier to absorb much larger numbers of EU migrants. In the region’s post-industrial towns and villages, small changes have had a much bigger impact. The three most pro-Brexit areas of Yorkshire were the adjoining local authorities of Barnsley, Doncaster and Rotherham, where the combined Leave vote was 68.4 per cent. While the referendum turnout nationally was six percentage points higher than in last year’s general election, across those three councils it jumped by 11 points. All nine Westminster seats are held by Labour MPs who backed Remain. In seven of them, Ukip came second in 2015. In Barnsley alone, more than 20,600 people who did not vote for any party at the general election chose to have their say in the EU referendum. In the council ward that includes Grimethorpe and a couple of neighbouring villages, turnout rose from 5,679 to 6,858.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Here, they say their children’s nursery school places are being handed to Polish children. They want to know why the labels of so many products in the local convenience store are in a language they cannot understand. If this is progress, they don’t want a bar of it. November will bring the 20th anniversary of the release of Brassed Off, the widely acclaimed film about a brass band from a loosely-fictionalised village, Grimley, whose coal mine has been earmarked for closure. It was Grimethorpe’s story, with a soundtrack courtesy of the Grimethorpe Colliery Band. Andy, the band member played by Ewan McGregor, remarks at one point: “The only reason I get up in the morning is to see if my luck’s changed. And it never bloody has.†In this part of South Yorkshire, that sounds about right. Grimethorpe’s reason to exist was its colliery, which began producing coal in 1894. The village was built to serve the pit. In 99 years, 155 people died underground. When it closed in 1993, a community lost its soul. Mass unemployment triggered an exodus of those capable of finding work elsewhere. Houses were abandoned; shops and pubs closed. Cue boarded-up and vandalised properties, soaring crimes levels and a surge in the use of hard drugs by teenagers denied a future. The village was dying. What ensued was a remarkable regeneration programme that from 1997 to 2010 pumped £165 million of public and private-sector investment into one fractured community. The contribution from local and national government, plus significant EU funding, totalled £67 million.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Contaminated land was reclaimed and a new link road built. Derelict houses were demolished and replaced by 600 new homes. At the heart of the project was the new industrial estate. Its biggest companies are Asos, the UK’s biggest independent online fashion retailer, and Symphony Group, Britain’s largest privately-owned manufacturer of fitted kitchen and bedroom furniture. Locals claim that most employees at both companies are foreign nationals. Asos has a giant distribution warehouse the size of six football pitches. Its management is outsourced to a global logistics company, XPO, that employs 4,000 people at the site. <strong><em>Symphony has 800 production workers at its Grimethorpe factory, less than half of whom are UK nationals. An estimated 430 employees are EU migrants, 96 per cent of them from Poland.</em></strong> Asos declined to provide a nationality breakdown for its 4,000 warehouse workers, many of whom are thought to be Polish or Romanian. Both companies admitted using agencies that recruit overseas. Symphony said that jobs were advertised in Poland to meet vacancies it was “unable to fill from the local areaâ€.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>An XPO spokesperson said that it selected “the best talent for our organisation irrespective of background, race or any other factorâ€. Asos said that it focused on “providing jobs for the people of Grimethorpe and the wider Barnsley community†but it was “not always possible to fill all our roles locallyâ€. None of which batters many haddocks at Grimethorpe’s White City Chippy, where <strong><em>Chelsea Priestley told of the day she went for a job interview at Asos. “Me and my mam went and there was a load of Polish people there, talking all jibber-jabber. We turned up, had an interview, then they took us to one side and said they didn’t want us. They gave the jobs to the foreigners. It’s not fair. This is our town.†Ms Priestley, 26, proceeded to conduct a guided tour of the small convenience store next door, which was indeed “full of Polish stuff†including an impressive variety of sausages and 17 brands of Polish beer. “All this bread’s Polish as well. We can’t read the labels. It’s disgusting and it needs sorting out. If I went over to Poland, d’you think they’d have a Warburton’s loaf for me?â€</em></strong></p>
<p> </p>
<p>The store’s owner, who said that Polish products amounted to 20 per cent of his sales, was the only person in Grimethorpe who told The Times that he voted Remain. It almost sounded like a confession. His name was Parimal Odedara and he happened to be visiting for the day. He lives in Leicester. Ms Priestley’s friend, 22-year-old Jessica Kearford, has a son aged four. She was told that there was no available place for him at the nursery school 100 yards from her home, where there were “lots of Polish childrenâ€. Ms Kearford’s son was instead offered a nursery place in a neighbouring village. She is awaiting the outcome of her appeal against the local authority’s decision. “Why’s my son not allowed to go to that school? Why are Polish children getting places that British kids don’t get? It’s like they’ve got more rights than us. Say something about it and you’re classed as racist, but we’re not. It’s about equal rights. They’re getting more than us.†Both women voted proudly for Brexit. Ms Kearford spent referendum day telling “everyone I saw, at least 50 family and friends, to make sure they got themselves down to that polling station to vote Outâ€. Perceived injustice breeds resentment and tension. Locals spoke of foreigners “breeding like rabbitsâ€, living 30 to a house, “walking around with no respect for othersâ€. A 19-year-old man who voted Leave gave a two-word explanation: “The Polish.†One Polish woman, 23, said she could “feel the hostility of English people whenever I pick up my son†from his primary school. Four of the 42 children in his class are Poles. The young woman, too scared to give her name, lives in Grimethorpe with her British boyfriend. They have bought a house in the village. Her mother and sister live ten miles away in Wakefield. “Everyone thinks Polish people come here to take their jobs, or that we’re all on benefits, but we work really hard for everything. We pay tax here and spend money here, but now we’re all worried that we’re going to be sent back. I earn the same here in one week, £200-£300, as I could earn in a month in Poland.â€</p>
<p> </p>
<p>At the working men’s club, a five-minute downhill stroll from the chippy, the wake for a former NUM official was in full swing. Johnny Wood, 58, a former miner who is now a postman, said that displays of xenophobia were a regrettable consequence of “the undermining of local communitiesâ€. “When the pit closed, I saw grown men crying. They didn’t know where to turn or what to do. When I come into the village today and see all those [industrial] units, I get a bit angry. They’re bringing in people from other countries and actually going to those countries to recruit. They know full well they’ll work for next to nothing.†Noting that the eastern European arrivals were as white as their Grimethorpe-born neighbours, Mr Wood suggested that if the British locals were black “you’d all be holding up the race card and saying we were victims of discrimination, and rightly soâ€. Until the last moment, he had intended to vote Remain “to protect union rights†but finally decided tha<strong><em>t “we’ve got to vote Out to control ’us own countryâ€</em></strong>. Of those he spoke to on his postal round during the referendum campaign, “out of 70 or 80 there were only two people who said they were voting for Remainâ€.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Anti-EU hostility was not confined to Grimethorpe. In Barnsley, the official Labour Remain campaign cancelled a scheduled street stall in the town centre on the day before the vote. It was felt to be too dangerous. Jonny Walker, a pro-Remain busker and Labour activist who defied warnings to stay away from Barnsley on the same day, said he was advised by organisers that “people’s safety couldn’t be guaranteedâ€. “The day before, an elderly man had been punched while handing out Remain literature. I thought we shouldn’t let fear win, so I turned up with my busking gear, a lot of leaflets and a big ‘Labour In For Britain’ poster. The atmosphere was really hostile. “People told me I had a nerve, coming to their town. They started talking to street wardens, trying to move me on. One angry woman in her 40s came up, took the poster, tore it up and threw it in the bin. Another woman told me to f*** off. She said I wasn’t welcome.†Might Ukip mirror the SNP’s conquest of Labour in Scotland by persuading the party’s northern strongholds to desert en masse, lured by a simplistic but seductive mantra of anti-elitism and anti-immigration?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Steven Woolfe, odds-on favourites to become the party’s next leader, called last week on the party to “go ruthlessly after Labour seats in the north and the Midlandsâ€. In Grimethorpe, opinion among lifelong Labour voters was divided. Mr Wood thought that the referendum result was a one-off howl of outrage from people who would probably return to the Labour fold at a general election, though he admitted that he was a lot less certain of such tribal loyalties than he would have been 20 years ago. A 68-year-old man who would not give his name, but who said he worked at the colliery for 23 years and has lived in the village since the days “when no one locked their front doorsâ€, was far more doubtful. “There’s an old saying in Yorkshire, cock. Tha’ can put a donkey up for Labour and they’ll get in. We’ve always been staunch Labour here, but Nigel Farage was right.<strong><em> We don’t want any more immigrants</em></strong>. That’s what swung the referendum. “Jeremy Corbyn will never lead Labour into power. We’ve got lads and lasses finishing college who end up flipping burgers ’cos there’s no work for them, while Poles come over here and walk straight into a job. Why don’t Labour and Ukip put themselves together and form a proper party?â€</p> -
<p>As mentioned, perhaps it's best to wait until a final agreement is in place before drawing conclusions:</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>Brexit: EU considers migration ‘emergency brake’ for UK for up to seven years</strong></p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/24/brexit-deal-free-movement-exemption-seven-years'>https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/24/brexit-deal-free-movement-exemption-seven-years</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>BTW, wasn't it Turks and NHS you were banging on about?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="600164" data-time="1469444692">
<div>
<p>As mentioned, perhaps it's best to wait until a final agreement is in place before drawing conclusions:</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>Brexit: EU considers migration ‘emergency brake’ for UK for up to seven years</strong></p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/24/brexit-deal-free-movement-exemption-seven-years'>https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/24/brexit-deal-free-movement-exemption-seven-years</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>BTW, wasn't it Turks and NHS you were banging on about?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>First, no, I was banging on about EU right to movemnent, the Turks & the NHS were brought in when we verred over to "things that were lied about". Thjo' good of you to graciously concede that right to movement is the core thing.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Re the emergency brake that is on the table (in theory) in that article, you mean the same EB that Cameron got in Feb?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>IE the same thing the Brexit voters rejected? Thats your example of them getting the deal they want? </p> -
If you'd bother to read the article it says "greater concessions than those won by David Cameron". <br><br>
It also states that it was "very early days". In other words no agreement has been reached on anything. So how can you say that people were fooled or lied to when nothing has even been agreed to? -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="600171" data-time="1469446592">
<div>
<p>If you'd bother to read the article it says "greater concessions than those won by David Cameron".<br><br>
It also states that it was "very early days". In other words no agreement has been reached on anything. So how can you say that people were fooled or lied to when nothing has even been agreed to?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Did you read this bit -</p>
<p> </p>
<p>"The Dutch MEP Hans van Baalen, who is president of the Liberal group in the European parliament and a member of the same party as Dutch prime minster Mark Rutte, said the plan should be taken forward, <em><strong>but would require the UK to give firm assurances about the right of EU citizens currently living and working in Britain to remain in the country</strong></em>."</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Or are you back to saying Brexit wasn't about that?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="600174" data-time="1469446949">
<div>
<p>Did you read this bit -</p>
<p> </p>
<p>"The Dutch MEP Hans van Baalen, who is president of the Liberal group in the European parliament and a member of the same party as Dutch prime minster Mark Rutte, said the plan should be taken forward, <em><strong>but would require the UK to give firm assurances about the right of EU citizens currently living and working in Britain to remain in the country</strong></em>."</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Or are you back to saying Brexit wasn't about that?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>So it was all about turfing them out now? The decisive factor in Leave winning was being able to chuck out the Poles? What about the Turks and the NHS?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And answer my question. How can you say that people have been fooled or lied to when a final agreement is still a long way from being reached?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="600182" data-time="1469449092">
<div>
<p>So it was all about turfing them out now? The decisive factor in Leave winning was being able to chuck out the Poles? What about the Turks and the NHS?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And answer my question. How can you say that people have been fooled or lied to when a final agreement is still a long way from being reached?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Go back & read what I wrote. The core of brexit was freeddom of movement. I've been consistant on that from page 1. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>NHS & Turks (which is by definition <strong><em>part of freedom of movement FFS</em></strong> - how do you think they were getting here? Turkey joins EU, gets Freedom of Movement. come to UK) were just other lies peddled. I've been saying the core is FoM, you've been saying "Thats just your opinion!!" </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Then you utterly ignored an article spelling it out because, well, turns out not just my opinion....</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="600182" data-time="1469449092">
<div>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>And answer my question. How can you say that people have been fooled or lied to when a final agreement is still a long way from being reached?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Ok,</p>
<p> </p>
<ul><li>EU migrants sent back - thats a lie, that has zero chance of happening, even at this very early stage the UK <em>are not asking for that</em>, have not even fucking mentioned it & in the article YOU linked to it's one of the core things that must be off the table</li>
<li>Turks coming - nope, they are not. You honestly think Turkey is just about to be given right to join? Now? after being held off for 20 years, NOW in your opinion is when they get let in?</li>
<li>NHS will get £350m funding - nope<em> Farage himself scotched that one the day after the election</em>. Literally the day after.</li>
<li>Freedom of Movement gone - with access to the free market - nope, zero chance. If the EU hand that over France votes to exit, as does Hungary & a whole swathe others. Norway has access in exchange for FoM, if the UK get access with no FoM why would Norway not immediately pull out & demand the same? The Norway model was held up pre vote - the Norway model is built on FoM! If you can get full access & have closed borders you don't have an EU, you have NAFTA. FoM has been the cornerstone of the EU since day 1. If that's on the table the EU ceases to exist What <em>might </em>be on the table is a temporary emergency break - which is what Cameron successfully got & the Brexit vote didn't want. Its very much NOT what they voted for. Saying "look they've got a EB!!" when Brexit voters just voted to not take that & saying its a win is farcial. </li>
</ul><p> </p>
<p>Same in the US, you don't have to wait & see what Trump can do, anyone who vaguely understands the US knows he 100% cannot build a wall with Mexico (let alone make Mexico pay for it) or ban Muslims, but those 2 are repeated over & over.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>In the real world there is shit that anyone vaguely sane knows cannot be done.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The irony is voters are (rightly) pissed at being lied to by polititians and as a result they are voting for more blatent lies. We are literally at the point where I offer every household a Unicorn that shits rainbows & rather than saying "you can't deliver that" people go "hang on, you don't know what he can deliver!!"</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="600184" data-time="1469451177">
<div>
<p>Go back & read what I wrote. The core of brexit was freeddom of movement. I've been consistant on that from page 1. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>NHS & Turks (which is by definition <strong><em>part of freedom of movement FFS</em></strong> - how do you think they were getting here? Turkey joins EU, gets Freedom of Movement. come to UK) were just other lies peddled. I've been saying the core is FoM, you've been saying "Thats just your opinion!!" </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Then you utterly ignored an article spelling it out because, well, turns out not just my opinion....</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Ok,</p>
<p> </p>
<ul><li>EU migrants sent back - thats a lie, that has zero chance of happening, even at this very early stage the UK <em>are not asking for that</em>, have not even fucking mentioned it & in the article YOU linked to it's one of the core things that must be off the table</li>
<li>Turks coming - nope, they are not. You honestly think Turkey is just about to be given right to join? Now? after being held off for 20 years, NOW in your opinion is when they get let in?</li>
<li>NHS will get £350m funding - nope<em> Farage himself scotched that one the day after the election</em>. Literally the day after.</li>
<li>Freedom of Movement gone - with access to the free market - nope, zero chance. If the EU hand that over France votes to exit, as does Hungary & a whole swathe others. Norway has access in exchange for FoM, if the UK get access with no FoM why would Norway not immediately pull out & demand the same? The Norway model was held up pre vote - the Norway model is built on FoM! If you can get full access & have closed borders you don't have an EU, you have NAFTA. FoM has been the cornerstone of the EU since day 1. If that's on the table the EU ceases to exist What <em>might </em>be on the table is a temporary emergency break - which is what Cameron successfully got & the Brexit vote didn't want. Its very much NOT what they voted for. Saying "look they've got a EB!!" when Brexit voters just voted to not take that & saying its a win is farcial. </li>
</ul><p> </p>
<p>Same in the US, you don't have to wait & see what Trump can do, anyone who vaguely understands the US knows he 100% cannot build a wall with Mexico (let alone make Mexico pay for it) or ban Muslims, but those 2 are repeated over & over.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>In the real world there is shit that anyone vaguely sane knows cannot be done.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The irony is voters are (rightly) pissed at being lied to by polititians and as a result they are voting for more blatent lies. We are literally at the point where I offer every household a Unicorn that shits rainbows & rather than saying "you can't deliver that" people go "hang on, you don't know what he can deliver!!"</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Freedom of movement and throwing out EU citizens who are currently UK residents are two completely different things. Are you saying that the decisive factor was people thinking that they could chuck out the Poles? Did the Leave campaign actually say that they would chuck out all EU citizens residing in the UK?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As for the rest, you can write another fucking novel if you want, but the fact remains that nothing has been agreed to.</p>
Brexit