Appalling double-standard



  • Not a good look at all after the Delegat decision. Hopefully NZR show more spine than the judge and the WRU have and do not select him for any NZ rep teams if he is good enough. It will be interesting if those people who were so vocal over the Chiefs incident are equally vociferous about this.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/84680904/wellington-rugby-player-discharged-without-conviction



  • Well you can be assured social media will go fucken ape shit over this one.

    How long until a young rugby player kills someone but gets a slap on the wrist because, say, he's an extremely promising lock forward and Whitelock and Retallick are close to retirement ?

    That's absolute bullshit.



  • Ordinarily I tend to give a judge who heard all the evidence the benefit of the doubt. However this case sounds horrific. I am amazed that you can get discharge without conviction for assault with intent to injure. Just seems wrong.

    On the other hand, the quality of reporting on Stuff is so bad that possibly it was not as bad as they are claiming.





  • @Damo said in Appalling double-standard:

    Ordinarily I tend to give a judge who heard all the evidence the benefit of the doubt. However this case sounds horrific. I am amazed that you can get discharge without conviction for assault with intent to injure. Just seems wrong.

    On the other hand, the quality of reporting on Stuff is so bad that possibly it was not as bad as they are claiming.

    It's one thing to have a punch up with another bloke ( or two ) something entirely different to punch a female. I could be wrong but I strongly suspect the two women he hit weren't exactly a pair of Ronda Rouseys.



  • Well the Stuff article has absolutely no details on what happened at all, and the newshub article has an extremely one-sided account of evens from the "tearful" victims, who omit to mention what provoked Losi.

    Not condoning what he ended up doing but I am willing to give the judge, who has all of the evidence, mitigating factors and information about everyone involved, the benefit of the doubt.

    It's another case of "do we ruin this guys life and have him end up being a drag on society, or do we throw him a bone and give him a chance to atone and become a positive member of society". The victims want his life ruined, but society doesn't benefit from that.

    It's not just sports stars that avoid conviction. Rightly or wrongly many people avoid conviction if it is their first run in with the law in NZ, particularly if the judge believes they have learnt a lesson and can be good citizens moving forward. It's only rich people and sports stars that ever make the media though... because click bait.



  • @No-Quarter said in Appalling double-standard:

    Well the Stuff article has absolutely no details on what happened at all, and the newshub article has an extremely one-sided account of evens from the "tearful" victims, who omit to mention what provoked Losi.

    Not condoning what he ended up doing but I am willing to give the judge, who has all of the evidence, mitigating factors and information about everyone involved, the benefit of the doubt.

    It's another case of "do we ruin this guys life and have him end up being a drag on society, or do we throw him a bone and give him a chance to atone and become a positive member of society". The victims want his life ruined, but society doesn't benefit from that.

    It's not just sports stars that avoid conviction. Rightly or wrongly many people avoid conviction if it is their first run in with the law in NZ, particularly if the judge believes they have learnt a lesson and can be good citizens moving forward. It's only rich people and sports stars that ever make the media though... because click bait.

    What you're referring to is called "diversion" and it's reserved for generally minor offences.

    Whatever "provoked" him DOES NOT excuse him hitting two chicks.



  • I read the article and I like to withhold my outrage until I see some detail that has a suitably qualified individual address the evidence and follow the guidelines in arriving ar such an outcome.



  • maybe the Stuff article and Newshub facts are skewed, wouldnt be the first time?

    I know when Ranger was being charged with assault, allegedly beating a guy and then kicking him in the head while on the ground...facts presented in the media were wrong (never mind that it turned out it wasnt even him that did it..but he was a good target on the verge of AB selection...cha-ching)



  • What a disgusting human being.

    4 people?! And he gets nothing.

    He waa 'destroying' his own career, judge could have applied the law with a clean conscience, the court should apply the law.

    I won't support any team with someone like him in it.



  • This player has been discharged without conviction. If I understand the legal side of this correctly, that means that he was found guilty of the charges (assault with intent to injure; two counts of male assaults female and injures with intent to injure).

    Regardless of the exact circumstances (whether described correctly in the media or not), he did commit the offences and IMO he didn't receive an adequate punishment. In fact, I'd like to know whether he did receive any punishment at all.



  • Judges make bizarre calls all the time sadly, for all sorts of different people...my point was the media will paint whatever picture to suit their agenda, regardless of omitting or including all relevant facts or info, I expect this fits the we have a shit rugby culture narrative we have been hearing recently (even if incidents like this fuel the fire)



  • Just read that one of the female victims is a sister of TJ Perenara's girlfriend. Perenara is contracted to Wellington Rugby as well. Wonder what would have happened if TJ hadn't made the ABs this year. Don't think having both in their team would go well under these circumstances.



  • One of the people he beat up says he was on the verge of making thf Lions himself but the injuries he received ended that. He ends someone else's career but is allowed a slap on the wrist to continue his?
    One of the guys that killed that Stephen Dudley in Auckland got similar treatment in the courts and is playing in Japan now.



  • @Stargazer Watching the TV3 story when it aired live tonight it did appear that the victims knew Filipo as they were referring to him by his first name. And given the serious injuries to 2 of them, at least, the only lives that have been ruined are theirs.



  • @Bovidae said in Appalling double-standard:

    @Stargazer Watching the TV3 story when it aired live tonight it did appear that the victims knew Filipo as they were referring to him by his first name. And given the serious injuries to 2 of them, at least, the only lives that have been ruined are theirs.

    Yes, and reading the messages sent to Wellington Rugby on social media, Wellington fans are not impressed at all.



  • Statement Wellington Rugby:

    WRFU statement on Losi Filipo
    
    MONDAY 26 September 2016
    
    Wellington Rugby would like to state clearly our organisation does not support violence in any form.
    
    The recent news story about Wellington contracted Under 19s player Losi Filipo has created an understandable reaction among our fan base and the wider public.
    
    Wellington Rugby would like to reiterate that Filipo’s case, including evidence from all of the parties involved, was dealt with by the New Zealand judicial system in August this year.
    
    Filipo, who was 17 at the time, was charged with assault for an incident that occurred while he was a secondary school student in October, 2015. Filipo was discharged without conviction by the judge in charge of the case.
    
    Wellington Rugby provided generic information to Filipo’s lawyer about the effects of a conviction on a professional rugby player, but was not involved in the court proceedings and has not been privy to the full details of the case.
    
    Wellington Rugby chief executive officer Steve Rogers said the situation was a difficult one for all involved.
    
    “Wellington Rugby is extremely disappointed in Losi’s actions and does not condone such behaviour from any member of the organisation regardless of their position or status.
    
    “We have been aware since late last year that Losi was involved in an off-field incident, but delayed any internal investigation to allow the judicial process to be completed.
    
    “Based on the facts made available to us, and the court judgement that deemed a conviction out of proportion to the gravity of the offence, we continued down the path of providing Losi with a support network to assist in his rehabilitation.
    
     “We also began an internal process that included our newly employed personal development manager working with him on a regular basis with the view to achieving a positive long term outcome.”
    
    Since his offending, Filipo has completed 150 hours of voluntary work with a youth development group promoting positive behaviour through sport and has undertaken regular counselling.
    


  • @antipodean said in Appalling double-standard:

    I read the article and I like to withhold my outrage until I see some detail that has a suitably qualified individual address the evidence and follow the guidelines in arriving ar such an outcome.

    100%. All we have is some very one-sided accounts in the media about what happened. The same media that is driven by "clicks" so will absolutely always try and create controversy.

    Again, not condoning his actions, but withholding my outrage until I hear the reasoning behind the decision.

    This is what often happens. Some initial "facts" surface in the media about an incident. Cue public outrage. Two weeks later when the judge is allowed to speak publicly he/she clearly explains their decision which makes perfect sense, but the story doesn't make the main page because everyone has moved on and it's not controversial enough.

    People are desperate to be outraged. This doesn't look great, but again we don't even know the facts yet. This is the type of thing something like the BLM movement in the States thrives on. Get the victims or somebody close to the victims to give their opinion to mainstream media and create some outrage. When the facts surface later on nobody gives a shit because they're too busy being outraged.

    Maybe you can tell.. but I deeply distrust a media that is driven by clicks.



  • Quite by chance the following appeared on today's Dominion Post website. Something along the same lines but with a very different judicial punishment imposed.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/84650044/home-detention-after-martial-art-gold-medallist-assaulted-three

    Interestingly no mention of the Filipo case on the Dominion's website. Draw your own conclusions on that.



  • Yeah, I wouldn't want to go all black lives matter on this until all the facts are known.

    If it is as it appears on the surface, the judge should be in a bit of trouble.



  • Isn't the key factor in all this that he was 17, not that he is a member of the Lions squad?

    Absolutely not condoning that - but you would want to know the full story before deciding where to set your outrage meter. "Unnamed All Black Winger" from about 10 years ago pretty much got a free pass with a similar sounding incident - but many seemed to rationalise that.



  • well the line they were peddling on the shiny new Breakfast with former mother of the nation Hilaaaaaaaaaaaaryyyyyyy Barry was that rugby players get away with too much, and to add credibility they had a former Shortland Street dude and some female comedian offer their opinions too! They had another lady on (was from some kind of sentencing outfit) who did offer a reasonably balanced view.

    I have seen plenty of summary's of facts of court cases, and the reasoning behind judges thinking is very bizarre at times, although the flipside is they are privy to all the minute details, rather than the exaggerated/downplayed facts presented in the media.

    EDIT: as an aside, what happened to Losi's 2 mates that were involved?

    "Morgan told Radio New Zealand that when he and his friends were approached by Filipo and his two friends that night, it was clear they were after a fight."...."I distinctly remember Losi being fired up from the get go ... I remember looking down and seeing Losi's fist already clenched."...."Harking back to the night he was assaulted, Morgan said he could not remember much about the assault, but his friends told him he was grabbed by the collar, and punched by Filipo"....



  • That's something that really fucks me off about NZ journalism. You so often get them interviewing either someone that is not an expert in the field at all, or interviewing each other. Very rarely do they get an actual expert to give a balanced opinion or view of an incident. As you say it's a complete fucking waste of time hearing what some idiot from Shortland Street thinks about it. How about a lawyer or someone similar that can actually talk to the case, and talk to other cases they are aware of where the same reasoning has been applied.

    We don't have reporters, we have repeaters. And often they fuck that up as well.



  • @taniwharugby The Dom Post article says Filipo's brother was charged with four lesser charges and was convicted. It doesn't say what the sentence was, if any.



  • Is this feral any relation to Ross Filipo?

    When I want an expert opinion I don't know about the rest of you but instead of seeking out the advice of someone recognised in the field I always seek guidance from a Shortland st actor, Lucy Lawless Hayley Holt or Robyn Malcolm . You know it makes sense .



  • The people that were claiming our justice system is racist are a bit quiet on this one.





  • This farks me off because of the way this is dragging 'rugby' through the mud - when in fact it's got fark all to do with it.

    Wellington are between a rock and a hard place because it's not up to them to be the judge on this - that's up to, you know, the actual judge so as far as they're concerned he's in the clear - but sheesh there's going to be some repercussions from the fans I'm sure.

    This is nothing more than some sh*tbag tough cnut who's out looking for a fight after being out drinking - I'm sure we've all encountered enough dickheads like these in our lives - and something needs to be done about it. This was a great opportunity to send a message but once again the courts have let everyone down.

    I'm all for diversion, I'm sure we've all done stupid stuff when we were younger but this is WAY above that threshold. Knocking someone out who was not even fighting, stomping on his unconscious head, then attacking the girls he was with? I saw the victims mother saying her son was a 'very big boy' so I can just see it now - "there's a big guy lets go try have a fight with him". Growing up being tall I had to deal with fcukwits exactly like this all the time going to parties etc.

    I want to be able to walk the streets after a few beers and not have to worry about twats like this, and I want my kids to be safe on the streets when they get older also.

    I also can't understand how the injuries to the victims weren't taken into account either - this wasn't a stupid drunken punchup - this was an attack that left one of the victims unable to work for 8 months! Oh but you know he spend 150 hours doing some community work.. big farking deal.

    Hopefully the people of Wellington will show their feelings towards the Mayor who wrote a letter of support in the upcoming elections as well...



  • Quality rant and if it turns out it was just an unprovoked attack from someone looking for a fight you are bang on. We don't actually know that yet though, so that's just an assumption.



  • provoked or not, if the fact about him stomping on an unconscious dudes head is true, then something like that deserves a spell behind bars.

    While plenty of incidents are jail worthy, jail may not be the best for the person, so can appreciate the judge using discretion in some instances, but to escape without conviction seems so wrong, IF the facts are as presented - I guess this is where our media need to be held to account and ensure they are presenting facts.



  • @WillieTheWaiter While I agree with you, it is about rugby because the judge made it so with the rationale behind his decision. If Filipo had been a factory worker I'm sure he would have received a prison sentence.

    I blamed the judge in my original post but NZR has an opportunity to make a stand here and gain some goodwill at the same time.



  • @taniwharugby said in Appalling double-standard:

    provoked or not, if the fact about him stomping on an unconscious dudes head is true, then something like that deserves a spell behind bars.

    While plenty of incidents are jail worthy, jail may not be the best for the person, so can appreciate the judge using discretion in some instances, but to escape without conviction seems so wrong, IF the facts are as presented - I guess this is where our media need to be held to account and ensure they are presenting facts.

    Absolutely. And I'm playing devils advocate here, but the key word there is IF.

    We've heard the account from the victims, which would have been (I assume) the same account they gave in court. But then the judge heard the account from the accused. So got both sides of the story, which is largely hearsay based on drunk people's memories of what happened. He then weighed up all of the facts, mitigating factors, people's past history and potential to reoffend, punishment which includes Losi's name being made public, and came to a decision that (by the looks) benefits society rather then the victims desire for retribution. If the soliciter-general does not agree then the decision can be appealed. Thankfully our justice system is largely free of corruption.

    In summary: fuck being a judge.



  • Without commenting on the appropriateness or otherwise of the sentence, diversion is normally done by the police and typically involves dropping the charges for a first offender provided certain criteria are met.

    Discharge without conviction is at the discretion of the judge, and can be given for any offense(s) without a minimum sentence, which is why DIC/DUI/EBA doesn't normally get it. The common reason for discharging without conviction in these cases is because the conviction would cost the offenders the ability to get contracts to play overseas (whether Super rugby or international because of the travelling, or simply to play pro rugby overseas e.g. in Europe), which is seen as disproportionate to the offending. The case law on the subject effectively views a conviction as a fine for the lost earnings, which could easily be hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars over 10-15 years for a young player relative to their earnings, particularly if they come from a lower socio-economic background.



  • @Bovidae said in Appalling double-standard:

    @WillieTheWaiter While I agree with you, it is about rugby because the judge made it so with the rationale behind his decision. If Filipo had been a factory worker I'm sure he would have received a prison sentence.

    I blamed the judge in my original post but NZR has an opportunity to make a stand here and gain some goodwill at the same time.

    That might be a minefield given he was discharged without a conviction, and we are talking about his livelihood. Employment Law can be a bitch to navigate, so it might be a case of NZR having their bed made for them in this instance.

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, so could be talking my usual bollocks



  • Pretty sensible article from Rachel Smalley on the Herald:

    The judge said if he was to follow conventional sentencing, then he would start from a position of 18 months in prison.
    
    But the judge didn't follow a conventional sentencing.
    
    Instead, he released Filipo without conviction.
    
    And this is what the judge said.
    
    "I have to ask myself are the courts in the business of destroying people's career prospects?"
    
    The judge felt that a prison sentence would serve no purpose, and it would be in Filipo's long-term interests to be allowed to continue his playing career. A prison sentence would cut that career short.
    
    It's an extraordinary case, isn't it? Polarising.
    
    But if it's possible to take the emotion out of this, it's clear what the judge is trying to do here.
    
    If you put Losi Filipo in prison, that will change the course of his life. His career prospects will be limited. His rugby career will end the moment he walks into jail. If he spends time behind bars, that will possibly fast-track him into a life of crime. Violent crime, too. If, however, he enters the New Zealand rugby system, then he'll be offered an umbrella that will provide structure, guidance, and discipline. And a chance to right the wrongs of his teens.
    
    I'm not suggesting that's right, but I can understand this judge's position on this.
    
    But if you're one of the four who were assaulted, what does justice look like to you right now?
    
    And in particular, to the young man who's playing career has been cut short? That young man who has only just started working again and who continues to suffer migraines and chronic fatigue. Life is pretty miserable, for him.
    
    So where do you sit on this? Do you place Losi Filipo in an environment where potentially he can turn his life around. Or do you bang him up in jail, ending his career prospects, and then potentially watch him spend the next 60 years of his life bouncing in and out of our justice system at enormous cost to the country and the taxpayer?
    
    What's your take?
    


  • @mariner4life said in Appalling double-standard:

    @Bovidae said in Appalling double-standard:

    @WillieTheWaiter While I agree with you, it is about rugby because the judge made it so with the rationale behind his decision. If Filipo had been a factory worker I'm sure he would have received a prison sentence.

    I blamed the judge in my original post but NZR has an opportunity to make a stand here and gain some goodwill at the same time.

    That might be a minefield given he was discharged without a conviction, and we are talking about his livelihood. Employment Law can be a bitch to navigate, so it might be a case of NZR having their bed made for them in this instance.

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, so could be talking my usual bollocks

    Always difficult, although arguably he has brought rugby into disrepute, so there's that angle. I doubt it will end his career though - more likely to be a written warning and he'll be required to undertake the rugby equivalent of community service.



  • @Bovidae

    @Bovidae said in Appalling double-standard:

    @WillieTheWaiter While I agree with you, it is about rugby because the judge made it so with the rationale behind his decision. If Filipo had been a factory worker I'm sure he would have received a prison sentence.

    I blamed the judge in my original post but NZR has an opportunity to make a stand here and gain some goodwill at the same time.

    what exactly are the NZRU supposed to do here - according to the courts this guy is in the clear.

    surely if they took action it would leave them open to a legal challenge? No different from if my work took some action against me for something that took place when I wasn't in their employment that I was then cleared about.

    The NZRFU keeps getting pointed at to act differently but at the end of the day they're no different from any other employer.



  • @No-Quarter said in Appalling double-standard:

    Pretty sensible article from Rachel Smalley on the Herald:

    If you put Losi Filipo in prison, that will change the course of his life. His career prospects will be limited. His rugby career will end the moment he walks into jail. If he spends time behind bars, that will possibly fast-track him into a life of crime. Violent crime, too. If, however, he enters the New Zealand rugby system, then he'll be offered an umbrella that will provide structure, guidance, and discipline. And a chance to right the wrongs of his teens.

    I'm not suggesting that's right, but I can understand this judge's position on this.

    But if you're one of the four who were assaulted, what does justice look like to you right now?

    And in particular, to the young man who's playing career has been cut short? That young man who has only just started working again and who continues to suffer migraines and chronic fatigue. Life is pretty miserable, for him.

    So where do you sit on this? Do you place Losi Filipo in an environment where potentially he can turn his life around. Or do you bang him up in jail, ending his career prospects, and then potentially watch him spend the next 60 years of his life bouncing in and out of our justice system at enormous cost to the country and the taxpayer?

    What's your take?

    I totally agree with what she's saying RE: prison etc.

    my issue with it is that he has totally escaped any form of punishment!

    10k reparation for each victim would be a starting point...



  • and now that I just opened the nzherald this guy is about to have the entire wrath of nz imposed on him cause the female victim is a smokin hot little blondy.



  • @WillieTheWaiter pics please


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