Electric Vehicles
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My concern is that rolling out charging infrastructure becomes a closed cycle i.e. because we have built the infrastructure we commit long term to EV. Whereas I think hydrogen is the way forward, much cleaner and needs no costly infrastructure.
For those old enough a bit like VHS V Betamax. The inferior system won out because it became ubiquitous. Car manufacturers now have a vested industry in the EV industry despite it being relatively inefficient and environmentally suspect.
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@dogmeat EV charging infrastructure is pretty cheap though. You can buy a 2-gun charger that will charge a bus in 40 minutes (if you ramp it right the fuck up) for less than $50k. When you consider the bus costs upwards of 12 times that per unit...
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@dogmeat said in Electric Vehicles:
My concern is that rolling out charging infrastructure becomes a closed cycle i.e. because we have built the infrastructure we commit long term to EV. Whereas I think hydrogen is the way forward, much cleaner and needs no costly infrastructure.
For those old enough a bit like VHS V Betamax. The inferior system won out because it became ubiquitous. Car manufacturers now have a vested industry in the EV industry despite it being relatively inefficient and environmentally suspect.
So if porn selects EV over hydrogen, that will be the key difference?
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@dogmeat said in Electric Vehicles:
My concern is that rolling out charging infrastructure becomes a closed cycle i.e. because we have built the infrastructure we commit long term to EV. Whereas I think hydrogen is the way forward, much cleaner and needs no costly infrastructure.
For those old enough a bit like VHS V Betamax. The inferior system won out because it became ubiquitous. Car manufacturers now have a vested industry in the EV industry despite it being relatively inefficient and environmentally suspect.
I think there is room for both in a petrol / diesel sort of manner. Electric is killing it at the moment & I've read / heard little of hydrogen technology of late honestly.
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@dogmeat said in Electric Vehicles:
My concern is that rolling out charging infrastructure becomes a closed cycle i.e. because we have built the infrastructure we commit long term to EV. Whereas I think hydrogen is the way forward, much cleaner and needs no costly infrastructure.
For those old enough a bit like VHS V Betamax. The inferior system won out because it became ubiquitous. Car manufacturers now have a vested industry in the EV industry despite it being relatively inefficient and environmentally suspect.
Hydrogen will dominate the large transport sector.
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Major manufacturer drops hydrogen trucks in favor of battery-electrics
Where will hydrogen fit in the clean transport mix? Not in trucking, says one of the world's largest heavy duty vehicle manufacturers, which is scaling back its fuel cell big-rig research and development operations in favor of battery-electric power.
Major manufacturer drops hydrogen trucks in favor of battery-electrics
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@mariner4life said in Electric Vehicles:
@dogmeat EV charging infrastructure is pretty cheap though. You can buy a 2-gun charger that will charge a bus in 40 minutes (if you ramp it right the fuck up) for less than $50k. When you consider the bus costs upwards of 12 times that per unit...
The other factor: electricity is already everywhere. Just need to put the right spout on it to feed your vehicle.
Hydrogen will have uses no doubt BUT they'll be highly specialised. Creating hydrogen for transport is easy enough, but they're well behind the game when it comes to a distribution network.
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@antipodean said in Electric Vehicles:
@dogmeat said in Electric Vehicles:
My concern is that rolling out charging infrastructure becomes a closed cycle i.e. because we have built the infrastructure we commit long term to EV. Whereas I think hydrogen is the way forward, much cleaner and needs no costly infrastructure.
For those old enough a bit like VHS V Betamax. The inferior system won out because it became ubiquitous. Car manufacturers now have a vested industry in the EV industry despite it being relatively inefficient and environmentally suspect.
Hydrogen will dominate the large transport sector.
the big advantages of electricity is it's simplicity (for the vehicle) and the ubiquity of the grid. Recharging will become a thing I reckon - with chargers just proliferating along with electric vehicles.
Don't underestimate the headaches with storing and transferring hydrogen either - and having to make the bloody stuff in the first place! It's a super important alternative fuel, but I can't see it displacing electrical for most vehicles.
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@crazy-horse said in Electric Vehicles:
@kruse said in Electric Vehicles:
I see Energica is claiming they've got bikes which can do 400km, and a "quick charge" back to 80% in 42 minutes.
Not me. Imagine getting to the recharge spot moments after someone else and having to wait for them before you can start. 42 minutes becomes 84. Stuff that. They would need way more charging outlets than potential customers.
Someone mentioned prebooking. Stuff that too. I don't want to be constrained by a booking. My stress would go through the roof if I was running late.
Yeah this is my concern too. How often would you be charging right up until you leave? So that makes the length you've got left even shorter, plus it's not like you're gonna go right up to the limit, so bring that 4 hours closer to 3....then you gotta wait your turn to charge 20 mins to take you SFA further...
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@nzzp said in Electric Vehicles:
@antipodean said in Electric Vehicles:
@dogmeat said in Electric Vehicles:
My concern is that rolling out charging infrastructure becomes a closed cycle i.e. because we have built the infrastructure we commit long term to EV. Whereas I think hydrogen is the way forward, much cleaner and needs no costly infrastructure.
For those old enough a bit like VHS V Betamax. The inferior system won out because it became ubiquitous. Car manufacturers now have a vested industry in the EV industry despite it being relatively inefficient and environmentally suspect.
Hydrogen will dominate the large transport sector.
the big advantages of electricity is it's simplicity (for the vehicle) and the ubiquity of the grid. Recharging will become a thing I reckon - with chargers just proliferating along with electric vehicles.
Don't underestimate the headaches with storing and transferring hydrogen either - and having to make the bloody stuff in the first place! It's a super important alternative fuel, but I can't see it displacing electrical for most vehicles.
Batteries simply don't work for interstate b-doubles, ships and planes. They're too heavy. That's not to diminish the challenges of storage which are orders of magnitude more difficult than LPG.
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@nta said in Electric Vehicles:
In addition to what @voodoo says above: electric bikes are probably always going to cap out at a certain charging rate simply because the hardware for fast charging adds weight and complexity to the electrical systems - need more wires, more thermal management etc.
Fascinated by that. You would have thought the thermal management components would be quite light and the thicker conductors would only add a few pounds. Is it the battery construction itself which adds all the weight?
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@victor-meldrew said in Electric Vehicles:
@nta said in Electric Vehicles:
In addition to what @voodoo says above: electric bikes are probably always going to cap out at a certain charging rate simply because the hardware for fast charging adds weight and complexity to the electrical systems - need more wires, more thermal management etc.
Fascinated by that. You would have thought the thermal management components would be quite light and the thicker conductors would only add a few pounds. Is it the battery construction itself which adds all the weight?
Should have clarified: the thermal management of the battery itself. Having liquid cooling is the only way to guarantee you can get the battery to the optimum fast-charge temperatures in any condition.
You can do that on a motorcycle but the scales of construction don't work as well, because you simply have mass restrictions - also centre of gravity issues on a bike versus a car.
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@majorrage said in Electric Vehicles:
I’ve always thought battery change was the way forward, not charge.
For trucks / hauling the torque of electricity makes huge sense, but surely the battery weight / size is a hinderance?
Energy density remains a critical factor - always improving of course, but there is a reason a lot of the big boys (Daimler, Volvo, Scania) are looking at this in addition to Tesla; they see a future.
Need to ensure a truck is going to be able to do the legal hours specified to the driver's satisfaction, and more importantly that the charging infrastructure is up to smashing a load of kWh into a battery in the shortest time possible - often in the middle of fucking nowhere.
Battery change could be an avenue there, but downtime is the issue on any given journey. Overall downtime on an electric truck for maintenance is quite small compared to a diesel due to simplicity by contrast.
I think we'll probably see a lot of electric in short haul/light commercial and public transport - you don't need more than 400km a day which is a single charge for a lot of the proposed vehicles. BYD in China has looked to move solely into that market and make Big Rigs tomorrow's problem.
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@nta I went to BYD's factory in China about 10 years ago. Was hosted by a Spanish solar developer as their financial advisor , along with a group of international banks they were trying to get comfortable with BYD's PV technology.
Got to drive their EV around the facility, and the PV manufacturing was 1st rate.
But by far the more impressive setup was their battery manufacturing facility. Looking back now, you can see they'd identified it as the main game.
If only I'd been smart enough to take notice 😎
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@nta said in Electric Vehicles:
Energy density remains a critical factor - always improving of course, but there is a reason a lot of the big boys (Daimler, Volvo, Scania) are looking at this in addition to Tesla; they see a future.
Hybrid long haul trucks make perfect sense. Large torque to enable them to easily accelerate from rest, diesel for economy, range and charging while in transit.
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@nta said in Electric Vehicles:
Should have clarified: the thermal management of the battery itself. Having liquid cooling is the only way to guarantee you can get the battery to the optimum fast-charge temperatures in any condition.
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Nick, because you seem to be the go to guy and I'm too lazy to research, how are things going with battery pollutants?
The are obviously quite intricate pieces of machinery made from some rather unpleasant materials. One of the biggest things about the Prius which was often mentioned (and therefore I assume true) was that it used more pollutants to make, than a basic petrol/diesel car would produce in a lifetime.
How has that moved forwards do you know? What is going to happen in 10 years time when we, as a planet, have 100 million used car batteries lying around?
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@antipodean said in Electric Vehicles:
@nta said in Electric Vehicles:
Energy density remains a critical factor - always improving of course, but there is a reason a lot of the big boys (Daimler, Volvo, Scania) are looking at this in addition to Tesla; they see a future.
Hybrid long haul trucks make perfect sense. Large torque to enable them to easily accelerate from rest, diesel for economy, range and charging while in transit.
Might be the ideal transition. Especially if you're putting in the regeneration to the right degree - less engine braking through towns, less wear on the anchors, free energy.
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@majorrage said in Electric Vehicles:
Nick, because you seem to be the go to guy and I'm too lazy to research, how are things going with battery pollutants?
The are obviously quite intricate pieces of machinery made from some rather unpleasant materials. One of the biggest things about the Prius which was often mentioned (and therefore I assume true) was that it used more pollutants to make, than a basic petrol/diesel car would produce in a lifetime.
Fucking Prius. Yeah it was a good idea 20 years ago but Toyota really should have moved on by now... They're laggards in this whole EV thing and Clarkson was right about Toyota's hybrid progam: building the battery in this country then shipping it to that country then taking the car over there is a big issue from a carbon pov.
Companies in Korea and Chinas are addressing this in the first instance through vertical integration: the raw materials are sourced as close as possible to the place of manufacture, to minimise fiscal and carbon costs in production. Refining the materials for batteries, putting them in the cells, wrapping those cells in the case, then installing them right next to where the car is assembled, painted, and rolled off the production line is smart.
How has that moved forwards do you know? What is going to happen in 10 years time when we, as a planet, have 100 million used car batteries lying around?
It is a good question; I am reminded about all the e-waste made by phones, laptops, and circuitry in general, and how places in China that process it are polluting rivers and lakes etc.
A lot of the battery manufacturers are putting warranties on the battery of 7+ years for cars and 10 for "static" storage, so they're fairly confident the risk analysis on chemistry testing is good. Of course, the battery will probably go longer than the warranty in a high percentage of cases.
Battery component recycling as a first step is going to be a big business. Manufacturers are producing batteries they know have a high percentage of reclaimable elements. I'm not sure on the exact toxicities that the cleaning processes will make, and how they're stored if deemed unusable. But it is better quality than the laptop batteries we throw away every day as a society.
Re-purposing is another element. While the chemistries between car and static storage are different, once a car battery drops below a certain level it can be transferred to domestic or industrial use as cheap storage before going to recycling. I've even seen a few companies that buy intact battery modules from written-off Teslas to do up old Land Rovers or other classic vehicles.
It is important to note that the chemistry of a car battery versus domestic battery is different, because they have different goals:
Car battery is designed to deliver power as a priority, with total number of cycles (full-to-empty) over 10 years to be around 1200 or every ~3 days.
Static storage is targeting energy availability with a high number of cycles over a 10-year warranty, at a daily cycle we're talking 3650 in total for that warranty period.Looking at it from another angle: will the "toxic footprint" of a battery's life cycle be any better or worse than emitting carbon over the life of a petrol vehicle? I guess that would be worth some research
The supply side is an issue: a lot of cobalt comes from places like the DRC where labour practices are shoddy at best (child labour) so they're working on taking out as they move forward. There are also efforts to reduce the ethical issues by establishing local companies rather than exploitative foreign interests to get everyone the money they deserve.
On a related topic: our warehouses use electric forklifts for pallet work, and what I found interesting is a lot of MHE (Materials Handling Equipment) runs on lead-acid. While the depth of discharge isn't as good and the battery life isn't as long as a result, Lead-acid physical elements used in those units is 100% recyclable. Also big business - keeps the cost of replacement low, and the market is large.
