Hillsborough



  • Can I suggest that everyone jumping all over my post takes a moment to actually read it.
    I will try and make my comments clearer.
    The police management and actions on the day were very poor and safety was overlooked. I remember watching in disgust as spectators trying to escape the crush were beaten back.
    I totally agree with the findings including the one that says fans were not to blame.
    What I posed was that I felt that the fans contributed to what happened in a manner.
    I think that Siam is seeing those pictures of fans outside with rose tinted specs. Even the video he posted explained that there was a fear of a death outside from the crush and there was a shot of someone in distress being lifted out. That's not normal civilized behavior or recognition of a situation. It may have been the norm at the time but that doesn't mean that it doesn't add risk. That's what I meant by behavior.



  • Can I suggest that everyone jumping all over my post takes a moment to actually read it.
    I will try and make my comments clearer.
    The police management and actions on the day were very poor and safety was overlooked. I remember watching in disgust as spectators trying to escape the crush were beaten back.
    I totally agree with the findings including the one that says fans were not to blame.
    What I posed was that I felt that the fans contributed to what happened in a manner.
    I think that Siam is seeing those pictures of fans outside with rose tinted specs. Even the video he posted explained that there was a fear of a death outside from the crush and there was a shot of someone in distress being lifted out. That's not normal civilized behavior or recognition of a situation. It may have been the norm at the time but that doesn't mean that it doesn't add risk. That's what I meant by behavior.

    Kelvin McKenzie would be proud of that explanation. The bad behaviour as them being there huh?



  • Kelvin McKenzie would be proud of that explanation. The bad behaviour as them being there huh?

    Stop being so precious.
    I'm not victim blaming but if you see those fans outside the ground as having no responsibility for their behavior at all then we obviously differ.
    Did their behavior cause deaths? No. Did it contribute to the situation, yes.



  • I totally agree with the findings including the one that says fans were not to blame.
    What I posed was that I felt that the fans contributed to what happened in a manner.

    Two statements completely and utterly at odds. But well done for your disgraceful victim blaming attack on innocent people.



  • If you can find this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_(film)  its well worth watching. Its very hard going but Eccleston is superb as the father. 
     
    Is there any chance anyone in the police will actually be prosecuted ? Not just for their actions but the cover up that followed?



  • Something not yet mentioned in any depth is the dreadful state of the stadia back in those days. for the most part the stadia had been built God knows how many years before and simply added to and re-furbed. No real investment into the infrastructure while all the time the use they were being put to was changing. Hillsborough was one of the FA's go to options for the FA Cup semi-finals. Why? Because it was big (capacity wise) and Sheffield Wednesday were unlikely to be in the frame. It was never chosen because it was fit for purpose.



  • If you can find this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_(film)  its well worth watching. Its very hard going but Eccleston is superb as the father. 
     
    Is there any chance anyone in the police will actually be prosecuted ? Not just for their actions but the cover up that followed?

    I think prosecution for the actions on the day will be unlikely but the cover up? I bloody well hope so. It was disgraceful.



  • I think prosecution for the actions on the day will be unlikely but the cover up? I bloody well hope so. It was disgraceful.

    I was pretty young when it happened but I remember the fans being blamed, watching that film made me pretty angry about the stories that had come out and how at the end they talked about some of  the head cops getting promotions ffs after the inquest.



  • Two statements completely and utterly at odds. But well done for your disgraceful victim blaming attack on innocent people.
    Total rubbish.
    The context of the first quote was talking about a legal level of blame. The second about the actions of some fans contributing to the situation.
    Where have I blamed victims?
    We all agree how bad the police were during and after the event. At the time I was yelling at the TV incredulous at what was happening.
    Those charged with upholding safety failed.
    If I was in that situation outside a ground I would make a choice to back out of there because of the risk. That's my behavioral choice.



  • Total rubbish.
    The context of the first quote was talking about a legal level of blame. The second about the actions of some fans contributing to the situation.
    Where have I blamed victims?
    We all agree how bad the police were during and after the event. At the time I was yelling at the TV incredulous at what was happening.
    Those charged with upholding safety failed.
    If I was in that situation outside a ground I would make a choice to back out of there because of the risk. That's my behavioral choice.

    I think the fans probably put reasonable faith in the authorities. I don't think anyone outside of the ground could have expected what transpired.



  • I think the fans probably put reasonable faith in the authorities. I don't think anyone outside of the ground could have expected what transpired.

    I doubt the cops involved expected it would turn out that way either, however reckless/negligent thier actions were.



  • Crucial, no one knew what was going on outside the stadium.
    The negligence to open the gate was the main reason for the escalation of the problem. Fans were simply trying to get inside the stadium to watch a game of football. The only people who knew a dangerous crush was happening were the people being crushed
    Probably best to leave this alone mate!



  • Is there any chance anyone in the police will actually be prosecuted ? Not just for their actions but the cover up that followed?

    Jeg the author, referred to above, mentioned time and culture were no excuses for the BBC paedophiles, so expect that precedence to be highlighted in the upcoming trials



  • Something not yet mentioned in any depth is the dreadful state of the stadia back in those days. for the most part the stadia had been built God knows how many years before and simply added to and re-furbed. No real investment into the infrastructure while all the time the use they were being put to was changing. Hillsborough was one of the FA's go to options for the FA Cup semi-finals. Why? Because it was big (capacity wise) and Sheffield Wednesday were unlikely to be in the frame. It was never chosen because it was fit for purpose.

    I went to a boxing day game at Goodison Park a few years ago with my gf's Dad, a die hard Evertonian. I don't like crowds / cramped spaces at the best of times, and that place freaked me out. I think it is the one of the oldest stadia in the UK. Seriously like a rabbit warren with loads of bottlenecks. You can see how things could go seriously wrong, and that's with ticketed seating. Terraces + poorly managed crowd inflows.....makes me shudder to think about it.



  • Jeg the author, referred to above, mentioned time and culture were no excuses for the BBC paedophiles, so expect that precedence to be highlighted in the upcoming trials

    Excellent.



  • Something not yet mentioned in any depth is the dreadful state of the stadia back in those days. for the most part the stadia had been built God knows how many years before and simply added to and re-furbed. No real investment into the infrastructure while all the time the use they were being put to was changing. Hillsborough was one of the FA's go to options for the FA Cup semi-finals. Why? Because it was big (capacity wise) and Sheffield Wednesday were unlikely to be in the frame. It was never chosen because it was fit for purpose.

    true about stadia, civil evolution I guess
     
    Was it 2 other FA Cup Semis held there in the preceding years without incident?
     
    A major factor was removing the policeman Mole (his name) from the job he knew how to do explicitly - Senior Cops come out looking stink again



  • true about stadia, civil evolution I guess
     
    Was it 2 other FA Cup Semis held there in the preceding years without incident?
     
    A major factor was removing the policeman Mole (his name) from the job he knew how to do explicitly - Senior Cops come out looking stink again

    I watched the ESPN doco again last night, they mentioned a near tragedy in the Spurs Wolves semi 1981(sic).  You are right about the "stadium", it was built at the turn of the century (1900s) and was done up for the '66 WC.  It reminded me of a really old decrepit version of Athletic park



  • true about stadia, civil evolution I guess
     
    Was it 2 other FA Cup Semis held there in the preceding years without incident?
     
    A major factor was removing the policeman Mole (his name) from the job he knew how to do explicitly - Senior Cops come out looking stink again

    Yeah. As I said, it was one of the go-to stadia for the FA. Many times Hillsborough has been used without incident but... Over the years there have been a few examples of outdated stadia and disasters. Not always crowd related but a good indication of their fitness for purpose in the modern era. In 1985 there was the Heysel thing and also the Bradford City fire. Two different problems but the commonality was outdated infrastructure. In a similar vein the Ibrox disaster in 1971.



  • Kelvin McKenzie would be proud of that explanation. The bad behaviour as them being there huh?

    To Kelvin became a verb in Fleet Street at the time. "Have you been on holiday"? "Yes, two weeks Kelvin"
     
    Lying in the Sun.



  • I watched the ESPN doco again last night, they mentioned a near tragedy in the Spurs Wolves semi 1981(sic).  You are right about the "stadium", it was built at the turn of the century (1900s) and was done up for the '66 WC.  It reminded me of a really old decrepit version of Athletic park

    Yeah the initial semi-final was played at Hillsborough and in near identical circumstances the same issues arose. The Spurs fans were segregated down at the Leppings Lane end of the ground (The smaller end and also where the Liverpool supporters were sent. In both instances they were by far the larger number of supporters). For the Spurs supporters, complete disaster was averted by the police opening the terraces and allowing the fans to spill out onto pitch-side. Ironic that the policing saved the day this time but  8 years later totally fucked things up.
     
    Lessons learned.
     
    Not.