U20 Rugby Championship 2025
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@MJonesfan seems too much focus is, and has always been on the ABs since professionalism.
Sure, the ABs are important to NZ, NZ Rugby and to a lesser extent now, world rugby, but I think we have taken our eye off the ball at the lower levels with the development (schoolboy/club/provincial)
It's something I have mentioned plenty of times, but I go back to when Cron was a world leader in scrumming coaching, he was going around NZ doing clinics in the provinces.
Now I realise this can create it's own issue if everyone does things the same way, but it was identifying an area we needed to work on, and developed, to be world leaders, but we rested on that far too long, kept using the same methods beyond thier use-by date when other teams evolved.
So Razor, NZR along with Super/NPC coaches should be looking at areas of weakness (all round props, 10's controlling games, exits, game smarts) and looking at implementing ways to improve this.
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We always go for the physically imposing players if there is a 50/50 call to make. It can pay off if you get it right but the defence of some of our big boys and especially outside backs leaves alot to be desired.
My personal feelings are this team could be great. They have 90% of the right selections in the squad. The coaching group have come through the system. Fundamentals is whats letting this group down. Tackling, lineouts and scrums in particular. This showed in the warmup game as well to a certain degree.
Give me a rugby player who can play both ways over the speciman or flashy footwork. Im sick of the selections for the razzle player rather than those that can do their roles.
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@taniwharugby—Yip, it's beyond me how we don't have someone like Mike Cron either travelling or getting tight forwards into Palm Nth to work on their skills.
Pretty clear from the 6 Nations the amount of investment going into this level of rugby and reality is that given our mid-tier level of players are heading offshore, more and more we are requiring these young players to step up sooner into ITM and Super level ranks than what they are ready for.
Given that we will always have some of the best open field runners in the world, I'm surprised that the NZRFU is not going heavy into the development of the tight 5, whose underperformance has become very apparent (whilst North invests heavily) and is concerning given these players are who will be in the AB squad in circa 5 odd years etc.
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There are some bare bones stats here
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Very entertaining watch
Ref bottled it at the end. Soon as the Kiwi went to the bin it should have been penalty try, tied game, game over.
World Rugby has an ideal opportunity to tighten officiating each season with the U20s but seem reluctant to do so
Both teams flopping on the ruck making it a mess
Start penalising the shit out of this when these boys are young enough to change habits
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@Chris said in U20 Rugby Championship 2025:
Milton Haig is a strange choice as HC,He was Georgian coach for a while,I thought there would be better candidates for such an important development team.
Yeh was saying above, this coaching team is unusually shit.
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@Left-Right-Out-0 said in U20 Rugby Championship 2025:
They have 90% of the right selections in the squad.
I am surprised they did not select the big Highlanders wing (Rangitutia).
Scrum is another surprise to me as the U20s had dominated the Hunters in this peculiar phase a few days ago. -
@cgrant The Hunters scrum is weak based on what I saw against the Chiefs Dev team.
Having now had a look at the SA-Arg game, Arg had a strong scrum and a good defensive lineout - two areas that weren't great for NZ against Aust. Arg has plenty of speed out wide too. NZ will need improvement in their set piece.
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Watching the game a second time, it becomes more noticeable how inconsistent the NZ U20s were throughout the game, with positive interventions constantly interchanging with negative ones, often within the same sequence of events. This left them unable to properly build momentum and further aided to the already hectic nature of the game. Here, I just want to highlight two periods where they were consistent, one consistently negative at the end of the first half and the other, consistently positive at the beginning of the second half.
The series of unfortunate events which concluded the first half did start out well: Pledger forces a turnover around the NZ 22 and Rico Simpson kicks deep, forcing an Aussie kick under pressure which gives the NZ U20s both territory and possession around the AU 22. It is at this moment, however, that the issues begin, with Letiu overthrowing his target:
While the throw looks to be too high anyway, Faleafā’s lift looks rather nonchalant. Poor technique in the lift looks to me to be a consistent theme in NZ Rugby lineout failings, across all levels
Australia kicks long and the NZ U20s get another opportunity to set up an attack, with Kunawave flinging a long ball to Saunoa on the edge. In the following phase, Tengblad carries up the middle. Another poor decision is then made, as Tengblad releases to carry again, despite the fact that he’s completely isolated while both of his cleaners are still on the floor. Eamon Doyle quickly latches on and forces the predictable turnover.
The NZ breakdown was a mess throughout the game, with players often looking unsure about their decision-making during the carry and clean
With the ensuing penalty, Harvey misses touch, with Simpson again clearing the ball into the Australian half, giving the NZ U20s yet another chance to end the half on a positive note. To make an already poor sequence of events worse, however, the NZ U20 defensive organisation is lackadaisical and unprepared for the Aussie quick throw, with Harvey exploiting the acres of space behind the upcoming defensive line through a well-executed chip-kick. Kunawave’s decision to full-on volleyball spike the ball in the direction of his own undefended try-line – gratefully received and finished by Harvey and Grover – is truly the cherry on top of the turd cake.
Sometimes, a .gif is worth a thousand words
To say that the Baby Blacks shot themselves in the foot at times would be a gross understatement. Rather, it felt more like they’d taken their grandpa’s old .44 Magnum out of the garage and had decided to blow their whole foot right off.
So how were they eventually able to string together a series of positive outcomes in the second half? Like all of us, what the NZ U20s truly needed at the time was a lucky break. Kunawave’s try in the 45th minute was more comedy than it was good rugby, the Australian defence eventually being undone by a poor Pledger pass and Stanley Solomon’s chistera. Yet the next sequence of events shows what a bit of luck can bring about: from the Australian restart, New Zealand put it through the hands in their own 22, everyone in sync about when to carry and when to offload, leading to a break down the right edge and a deep foray into the Australian half.
Players in movement, combined with varied pass- and carry-selections, will challenge any defence
Australia U20s quickly infringe and at the next set-piece, following the kick to the corner, the Baby Blacks feel confident enough to pull out a creative strike play off the lineout:
Here, the NZ U20s exploit the Junior Wallabies insecurity around their maul defence, using the short maul as a decoy to create more space for the peel
The short maul forces the Aussie defenders to commit before Keith quickly releases Letiu, and with Keith looping around, Kunawave running the inside line and Wiseman running off the shoulder, the AU U20s are unable to properly read the play, allowing Kunawave to take the pass and waltz right through for his second.
While the NZ U20s would still score the next try to make it 29-17, they were already signs before this that the momentum couldn’t be maintained, with turnovers once again creeping into their game. The high number of changes around the 52 minute mark – both injury-enforced (Bason, Baker) and form-related (Letiu) – won’t have helped with this. The absence of both Baker and Bason especially was noticeable, with the pack suddenly looking very lightweight, despite Micah Fale’s best efforts.
Haig’s timing of some of his substitutions should probably be questioned as well: the team had already lost one of its key leaders in Bason around the 50 minute mark. Then taking off both Letiu and Pledger quickly afterwards seems, retrospectively speaking, like an excellent recipe for a rudderless final 20 minutes. And we all know how those final moments unfolded.
So where does all this leave the Baby Blacks for their next games, their season even? Will they be able to put in performances where they’ll string together long sequences of positive outcomes or will their collapse against Australia in the final 20 minutes further unfold into a continuous negative spiral? To be honest, I can’t really decide either way right now. Let’s just call it a draw.
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Having watched the SA game again I’m not feeling that optimistic about the next match. Sure there was a lot of enthusiasm and emotion, but there are big problems with all departments. The handling errors are particularly worrying. I don’t see this team beating Aus or NZ. They are just too static in the way they play.
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@W32 said in U20 Rugby Championship 2025:
Having watched the SA game again I’m not feeling that optimistic about the next match. Sure there was a lot of enthusiasm and emotion, but there are big problems with all departments. The handling errors are particularly worrying. I don’t see this team beating Aus or NZ. They are just too static in the way they play.
I think the handling errors are to be expected, it comes with the territory of playing a more expansive game. It's something they'll have to get through if they want to become more comfortable playing that way.
For me, the Junior Boks are definite favourites for this tournament. There should be some changes to the team - I'd probably start Moyo and put Malgas on the bench, Kyle Smith out of the 23, start Hlekani, probably play Mars on the wing ahead of Cupido, and maybe start Juandré and JD Erasmus - but they have lots of pace and power, which I think will get them across the line against both Australia and NZ.
I think NZ will improve for the U20 World Cup but they'll need some serious reinforcements coming in.
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@Mauss said in U20 Rugby Championship 2025:
@W32 said in U20 Rugby Championship 2025:
Having watched the SA game again I’m not feeling that optimistic about the next match. Sure there was a lot of enthusiasm and emotion, but there are big problems with all departments. The handling errors are particularly worrying. I don’t see this team beating Aus or NZ. They are just too static in the way they play.
I think the handling errors are to be expected, it comes with the territory of playing a more expansive game. It's something they'll have to get through if they want to become more comfortable playing that way.
For me, the Junior Boks are definite favourites for this tournament. There should be some changes to the team - I'd probably start Moyo and put Malgas on the bench, Kyle Smith out of the 23, start Hlekani, probably play Mars on the wing ahead of Cupido, and maybe start Juandré and JD Erasmus - but they have lots of pace and power, which I think will get them across the line against both Australia and NZ.
I think NZ will improve for the U20 World Cup but they'll need some serious reinforcements coming in.
I do think the coach was trying to do the “bomb squad” thing. He very nearly came unstuck as the SA players started to go into their shells for a period. Certainly they will have grown in confidence from winning, but they seem fragile. I guess that is an age thing.
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@MJonesfan said in U20 Rugby Championship 2025:
Now, it's pretty apparent from watching NZ vs. Oz games at U18 and U20 Levels over the past couple of years that Oz have now moved forward in terms of their player development.
This is a bit of a long reply but I happened to have to some thoughts on this as well, so I figured I might as well post them.
For me, I’d be hesitant to equate props’ performances at U20 level to something like player development and a potential indicator of future success. If you look at some of the current AB hopefuls at loosehead and tighthead in Super Rugby – George Dyer, Tevita Mafileo, Ollie Norris, Xavier Numia – all of them were incredibly raw at U20 level. Their most important development was in the years immediately after this, putting on a professional weight and gaining steady experience in the NPC and Super.
And, interestingly enough, these years of growth after the U20s is exactly where the issue lies with Australian development. I remember someone like Shambeckler Vui absolutely dominating at U20 level, both in the scrum and the loose. He was quickly signed by the Western Force and already played multiple games of Super Rugby as a nineteen year old in 2017. But he was never able to properly develop in the years afterwards and already played his last minutes of Super Rugby – 10 minutes total for the Waratahs against in the 2018 season, in a game against the Highlanders – at 21-years old. Jack Barrett and Massimo de Lutiis, two standouts of the previous two AU U20 campaigns, will be wary of suffering the same fate. Barrett himself was already hooked rather unceremoniously in a 2024 Tahs game against the Rebels, after being put through the wringer by SR veteran, Sam Talakai. The success of the Australian props at U20 level can, in other words, be a curse rather than a blessing, as they are exposed too soon to a level they’re not yet ready for and then quickly tossed aside when they (inevitably) don't perform.
A similar thing can be argued for other countries as well. Throughout the 2010s, the English U20 scrum was the most dominant set-piece at age grade level, and formed the basis of their excellent run of results in that period. Props like Mako Vunipola, Henry Thomas, Will Collier, Alec Hepburn, Scott Wilson, Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi, Lewis Boyce, Will Stuart, Ehren Painter and Joe Heyes were all part of a dominant scrum at U20 level. Most of these players became very decent Premiership players but very few of them broke through at Test-level. And if they did, like Vunipola, it was for their ability in the loose rather than his excellence at set-piece, which never really translated to Test-level. England are still searching for a decent tighthead, despite having consistently dominant scrums at age grade level. The current hopes are Asher Opoku-Fordjour, Afolabi Fasogbon and Billy Sela. But again, they’re put under a lot of pressure during crucial years of development, with several people already calling for Opoku-Fordjour’s inclusion in the British and Irish Lions (undeservedly so, I might add, as he can still struggle against experienced veterans, such as Ali Vermaak in the Sale vs. Stormers game in the Champions Cup).
Finally, I’ll agree with the sentiment that I would prefer to see earlier development of props in New Zealand. At the moment, the only way an NZ U20 scrum in the recent past has maintained parity is by using massive bodies (Tamaiti Williams) or by having a tighthead unicorn (F. Newell). There’s no immediate reason clear to me why the efforts in both coaching and conditioning can’t be ramped up. Watching a player like Liam Van der Heyden, the Hamilton Boys’ tighthead, scrum at the Sanix tournament, it’s clear how much he would benefit from a prolonged focus on technique and scrum fitness. Professionalism in rugby is quickening the required age of development. And while I think NZR is right by emphasizing the years of 21 and 22 as years of physical development, technical development (including scrum-specific forms of aerobic fitness) is something which could and should be conveyed earlier. It would, at the very least, bring more stability to the set-piece at U20-level, which, undoubtedly, would bring along a considerable improvement in results as well.
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Watching our Wilde Klawer schools tournament this week. Some excellent fatties and not only from the Winelands factory. Outstanding was the blond surfer lh from Stilbaai playing for Oakdale and TH from Garsfontein called Proppie. Our schoolboy rule for a few meters pushing is a bad one. Also the red card allowing 7 men scrum on both side really bad ones.
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