2025 All Blacks v France series
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@gt12 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
I generally love your analysis @Mauss , but why bother going back to the WC final (which we nearly won)?
That's fair but I was mostly just referring to the RWC final because it was part of the above discussion on whether Jordie should be at 12 or 15.
Like here:
@MN5 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Has never stood out vs De Allende or Esterhuizen and PSDT hit him so hard and often in the WC final I can only assume he owed him some money.
My point is pretty general, I suppose, and can also be applied to the current coaching set-up: that it doesn't really matter how big your 12 is - whether it's Jonathan Danty or Bundee Aki or Timoci Tavatavanawai - if you don't have a particularly effective attacking shape, there's very little those players can do on their own, especially in the face of such a well-organized defence as that of the Boks.
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Very interesting talk from Ryan on the Rugbypod noting that Super rugby at the finals is a completely different beast to Super rugby in February.
He pointed to the team who won the scrum battle, and more importantly the penalties at the scrum battle; he cites 34 scrum penalties and the teams that were on the right side of that won.
You can feel that focus on the set piece as well with him noting that Finau is there because he is proper line out option. He talked about two locks who can play 6 - so one assumes them to be Vaai and Barrett.
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@gt12 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
I would have thought we'd analyse how Jordie went last year under these coaches and this attacking system when we lost in Johannesburg with Jordie at 12 and lost in Cape town with Jordie at 12?
Great, now I'm watching the Joburg Test again. But it's actually quite interesting seeing the different approaches between the French quarter final plan and the ABs at Ellis Park.
The ABs - I'm in the first 10 minutes - tend to use Jordie off of first phase lineout attack, as the carrier to set up the platform. The French, on the other hand, barely used Danty for this. Instead, they gave the ball to some of their bigger forwards - Uini Atonio and Charles Ollivon - to crash the ball up. Danty would then come into play in the next phases, either as distributor or as a carrier against smaller opposition players.
It does signal a bit of lack of originality from the AB coaches in the past year. I did hear Jason Ryan talk recently about ball carrying props, and it would make sense to let players like Tamaiti Williams or Pasilio Tosi do these crash balls, pushing Jordie into second phase and someone like McKenzie into the third, letting the latter construct the final part of the strike.
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@Mauss said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@gt12 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
I generally love your analysis @Mauss , but why bother going back to the WC final (which we nearly won)?
That's fair but I was mostly just referring to the RWC final because it was part of the above discussion on whether Jordie should be at 12 or 15.
Like here:
@MN5 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Has never stood out vs De Allende or Esterhuizen and PSDT hit him so hard and often in the WC final I can only assume he owed him some money.
My point is pretty general, I suppose, and can also be applied to the current coaching set-up: that it doesn't really matter how big your 12 is - whether it's Jonathan Danty or Bundee Aki or Timoci Tavatavanawai - if you don't have a particularly effective attacking shape, there's very little those players can do on their own, especially in the face of such a well-organized defence as that of the Boks.
I mostly agree, but a lot of that going through the middle was creating the space for those loop plays for Mo'unga. I'm not saying I liked them or that attack style, but I could see how it made defenders have to make decisions. From memory, that loop play worked once in the final, and had we kicked our goals, we might be hailing it as strategic brilliance as World champions.
My point is that looking at how he was used under Foster was with a specific goal in mind that does not necessarily translate to the current set-up and players. If you are going to use that analysis of yours, can you put it across to the new team? I'm interested.
Edit: I see you've already started having a look from the post above.
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@Mauss said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Great, now I'm watching the Joburg Test again.
Briefly following up on this (before doing something actually productive, thanks @gt12): there were some nice variations off lineout and scrum attack as the game went on, with Clarke trucking it up a number of times, as well as using Clarke to fake the run before shifting the point of attack towards the edge through McKenzie and Jordie (still no tight five crash balls, though, although that might’ve occurred in another Test). Also a nice strike move in the 51st minute, using Barrett as a kind of makeshift backdoor passer from a lineout over the top.
But it feels like a strange Test to evaluate Jordie’s role in the 12-jersey. If this Test makes anything clear, it’s that the ABs only really had one way to go, and that was wide. With Scott Barrett, Vaa’i, Blackadder, Cane and Savea as the back five, they were unable to make any dents in the Bok defensive line. It was just too easy to defend for the Springboks, they could put massive energy into their wide scramble defence as there was very little threat of a break up the middle.
So while it’s easy to blame the backs for this loss, it’s not the backline’s lack of size which is the problem, in my view. While the game-drivers (9, 10 and 15) did go to the backline way too much and too quickly, it was because they were constantly under threat of turning it over if they kept it among the forwards. So the AB forwards probably need to be a fair bit bigger and more physical in the contact in order to fix this, which the current selection policy seems to take into account (another lock/6, Holland, Finau, Sititi and Taukei’aho should help with this, in theory at least..).
But the forwards also need to be more creative and unstructured in their attacking of the ruck area, as the attack was often too premeditated for it to trouble the Bok defence too much. A few pick-and-go’s after quick ball, coupled with an offload and support play, could seriously stress a defence like that of the Boks. There seemed to be very little planning (or self-belief) on how they could attack the Boks in more ways than one, which is crucial if you’re dealing with line speed.
Hopefully we'll see some improvements in these areas this year. I suspect that if we do, the backline will look very good, very quickly.
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@cgrant said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Considering the players who have been selected, I would like a backline like this one :
Roigard
Love
Ioane
Tupaea
Proctor
Jordan
J. BarrettRatima
DMac
TavatavanawaiI'd be happy with this team - wouldn't mind Clarke getting a run though, he was good value last year.
From the backs selected in the squad, it's really only BB, Reece and (to a lesser extent) Hotham that I don't want to see in too many 23s (and ALB at 12/on the bench).
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@canefan said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Bryn Hall quite butthurt about EB and DH. So many MFers, don't know how they are going to get them all game time
How many Crusaders people do we need in the media whinging about their players missing out?
Both of them not being there is the right decision.
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If you scroll down to the "Players" part of the French National Rugby Team's Wikipedia page you'll see the age of the players, their club and their caps.
It's not exactly an experienced international back row that will be taking on the ABs.
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@sparky said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
The French squad to tour New Zealand has been named:
Even after adding 5 players from UBB or Toulouse after the final they will be missing a lot of star power. You can't write the French off as they were more than competitive when they toured Aust in 2021. The pressure will be on Robertson and the ABs to win 3-0.
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Player list by club.
Forwards (Club/ former club)
Esteban Abadie (RC Toulon / Racing Club De France)
Hugo Auradou (Pau / CA Sarladais Périgord Noir)
Demba Bamba (Racing 92 / Saint Denis US)
Gaëtan Barlot (Castres Olympique / AS Montferrandaise)
Giorgi Beria (USA Perpignan / Stade Aurillacois)
Pierre Bourgarit (La Rochelle / ES Gimontoise)
Georges-Henri Colombe (La Rochelle / Racing Nanterre Rugby)
Tyler Duguid (Montpellier HR / Edmonton Nor’westers Rugby Club)
Baptiste Erdocio (Montpellier HR / Bidard UC)
Alexandre Fischer (ASM Clermont / UC Issoirienne)
Mickaël Guillard (Lyon Rugby / RC Maurepas Élancourt)
Matthias Halagahu (RC Toulon / CA St Raphaël Fréjus)
Paul Mallez (Provence Rugby / RCPA Mousson)
Guillaume Marchand (Lyon Rugby / US Montréjeau)
Régis Montagne (ASM Clermont / FC Grenoble)
Rabah Slimani (Leinster Rugby / Aas Sarcelles)
Romain Taofifenua (Racing 92 / Al Echirolles)
Killian Tixeront (ASM Clermont / US Martres De Veyre)
Jacobus Van Tonder (USA Perpignan / Free State Cheetah)
Théo William (Lyon Rugby / CS Bourgoin-Jallieu)
Cameron Woki (Racing 92 / AC Bobigny)Backs
Théo Attissogbe (Pau / Peyrehorade Sports Rugby)
Léo Barré (Stade Français / RC Versailles)
Léo Berdeu (Lyon Rugby / OL Grasse)
Léon Darricarrère (ASM Clermont / La Rochelle)
Thibault Daubagna (Pau / Pau)
Alivereti Duguivalu (USA Perpignan / Nadroga)
Gaël Fickou (c) (Racing 92 / US Seynoise)
Émilien Gailleton (Pau / Cahors Rugby Saint Cadurcien)
Antoine Hastoy (La Rochelle / RC Billere Asptt Lescar)
Baptiste Jauneau (ASM Clermont / AS Buzy Ogeu)
Nolann Le Garrec (Racing 92 / RC Vannes)
Théo Millet (Lyon Rugby / Boitsfort Rugby Club)
Joris Segonds (Bayonne / SG C Decazevillois)
Tom Spring (Bayonne / US Nafarroa)
Cheikh Tiberghien (Bayonne / Bayonne)
Gabin Villière (RC Toulon / RC Du Bocage Virois) -
@DaGrubster said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
He had the same issues with turnovers against SA last year too.
Yeah, he clearly was rushed back too early and had little confidence.
Still can have very poor games though.
I think we will see him play a lot better rrom fullback this year
I think Jordan has developed into a bloody good fullback. I was all for at 14, but honestly think he has improved (mainly under high ball) as an out and out 15, though can still play 14 if needed.
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I'm aware I'm a rank amateur.
I'm not butt hurt and I didn't have any strong opinions on who shouldn't or should be selected.
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France national rugby union team - Wikipedia
