2025 All Blacks v France series
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Kinda depends on what sort of support Jordan gets from his wings. Clarke has been out of form and Reece sh*ts the bed every other test.
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@The-Docter said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Ridiculous
This could relate to any number of my posts.
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@Mauss said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Not that I really want to rehash the above discussion but for what little that it’s worth, in my view Jordie is most at home as a 12 and Will Jordan is (becoming) a 14/15.
Blaming Jordie for getting smashed behind the gainline is like blaming a Barrett for having a shit haircut: it’s the shape that matters. France didn’t simply launch a guy like Jonathan Danty (110 kg+) into the Bok defensive line in the RWC quarter final, they used short kicks over the top, they used wide passes off of turnover ball, they used box kicks, switch plays to the blindside, quick taps, pick-and-go’s, all to misdirect and overload the Bok defensive line speed.
In the entire first half, Danty carried the ball in first phase just three times: in the first one, he was stopped dead in his tracks and nearly turned over. In the second, he ran a hard line off a lineout, targeting Libbok in the defensive line. And in the third, he was manhandled by De Allende. For the majority, France manipulated the Bok defence in order to get Danty to run at single defenders in broken field play.
Jordie got smashed because the AB attack in the opening 20 minutes was too slow, too conservative and didn’t attack the space that was available with enough conviction. Put any other 12 in world rugby on the attacking backfoot against Du Toit, Etzebeth and Vermeulen and it’s easy to predict what will happen (putting Tupaea or Tavatavanawai in the same situation will change very little). Jordie Barrett has both the tools (passing off left and right, kicking game, offload, defensive prowess, breakdown threat) and the instincts (decision-making in tight spaces, communication, scanning, physicality) to be a very good midfielder. What he needs around him is an AB attack shape which is ambitious and clever, and is able to properly showcase his particular skillset.
As far as Will Jordan is concerned, he, as mentioned before, has taken considerable steps as a fullback, improving his decision-making, distribution, playmaking and kicking. But there are also signs that he could be more effective on the wing at Test level as well, as he looks to have considerably improved his work in close quarter contact, whether it be in defence, at the breakdown or on the attacking edge.
The basis of this seems to be some mass added to his frame as well the way he engages contact with a set defensive line. While he always excelled at running towards weak shoulders in broken play, he struggled with ready defenders and double tackles, often losing the ball by going too upright or hesitating before going into contact. On the basis of this season, and the SR finals series especially, he seems to have worked hard on this. He scored two tries against the Blues in the semi-final by running into crowded defensive spaces and in the final, he again displayed his increased comfort in close contact:
Jordan running into contact
Jordan uses footwork to fix his defender, gets into a lower body position and accelerates into contact. While these clips might seem innocuous enough, Jordan’s increased comfort in contact makes him, in my view, more of a genuine option on the wing against aggressive defences, the latter often seeking to dominate the contact on the edge in order to push teams back towards the middle. It means Jordan can be used for attacking the opposition in multiple ways and spaces, whether it’s as a scanner and organizer at the back or whether it’s at the end of an attacking chain, where he can use his footwork and increased comfort in contact to finish a strike.
He is, in other words, slowly turning into a version of Ben Smith which, obviously, is a very good thing. Smith’s value was both his attacking vision as well as his ability to be used in different ways, giving an attack coach a unique weapon to unlock opposition defences. For me, at least, it is looking like Jordan is becoming such a multifaceted option in his own right, his ability to attack multiple spaces throughout a game something which needs to be further cultivated at Test level.
Jeez @Mauss , you write like I've got time to
a. Read
b. Understand
What you've written.Love your stuff, but will try and comprehend it all in the morning!
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@booboo said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@Mauss said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Not that I really want to rehash the above discussion but for what little that it’s worth, in my view Jordie is most at home as a 12 and Will Jordan is (becoming) a 14/15.
Blaming Jordie for getting smashed behind the gainline is like blaming a Barrett for having a shit haircut: it’s the shape that matters. France didn’t simply launch a guy like Jonathan Danty (110 kg+) into the Bok defensive line in the RWC quarter final, they used short kicks over the top, they used wide passes off of turnover ball, they used box kicks, switch plays to the blindside, quick taps, pick-and-go’s, all to misdirect and overload the Bok defensive line speed.
In the entire first half, Danty carried the ball in first phase just three times: in the first one, he was stopped dead in his tracks and nearly turned over. In the second, he ran a hard line off a lineout, targeting Libbok in the defensive line. And in the third, he was manhandled by De Allende. For the majority, France manipulated the Bok defence in order to get Danty to run at single defenders in broken field play.
Jordie got smashed because the AB attack in the opening 20 minutes was too slow, too conservative and didn’t attack the space that was available with enough conviction. Put any other 12 in world rugby on the attacking backfoot against Du Toit, Etzebeth and Vermeulen and it’s easy to predict what will happen (putting Tupaea or Tavatavanawai in the same situation will change very little). Jordie Barrett has both the tools (passing off left and right, kicking game, offload, defensive prowess, breakdown threat) and the instincts (decision-making in tight spaces, communication, scanning, physicality) to be a very good midfielder. What he needs around him is an AB attack shape which is ambitious and clever, and is able to properly showcase his particular skillset.
As far as Will Jordan is concerned, he, as mentioned before, has taken considerable steps as a fullback, improving his decision-making, distribution, playmaking and kicking. But there are also signs that he could be more effective on the wing at Test level as well, as he looks to have considerably improved his work in close quarter contact, whether it be in defence, at the breakdown or on the attacking edge.
The basis of this seems to be some mass added to his frame as well the way he engages contact with a set defensive line. While he always excelled at running towards weak shoulders in broken play, he struggled with ready defenders and double tackles, often losing the ball by going too upright or hesitating before going into contact. On the basis of this season, and the SR finals series especially, he seems to have worked hard on this. He scored two tries against the Blues in the semi-final by running into crowded defensive spaces and in the final, he again displayed his increased comfort in close contact:
Jordan running into contact
Jordan uses footwork to fix his defender, gets into a lower body position and accelerates into contact. While these clips might seem innocuous enough, Jordan’s increased comfort in contact makes him, in my view, more of a genuine option on the wing against aggressive defences, the latter often seeking to dominate the contact on the edge in order to push teams back towards the middle. It means Jordan can be used for attacking the opposition in multiple ways and spaces, whether it’s as a scanner and organizer at the back or whether it’s at the end of an attacking chain, where he can use his footwork and increased comfort in contact to finish a strike.
He is, in other words, slowly turning into a version of Ben Smith which, obviously, is a very good thing. Smith’s value was both his attacking vision as well as his ability to be used in different ways, giving an attack coach a unique weapon to unlock opposition defences. For me, at least, it is looking like Jordan is becoming such a multifaceted option in his own right, his ability to attack multiple spaces throughout a game something which needs to be further cultivated at Test level.
Jeez @Mauss , you write like I've got time to
a. Read
b. Understand
What you've written.Love your stuff, but will try and comprehend it all in the morning!
I've given Mauss' last post the CGPT treatment
Jordie Barrett thrives at second five-eighth (12), with strong passing, defence, and decision-making. His recent struggles were due to a slow, conservative All Blacks attack, not individual flaws. France showed how to break down the Springboks with smart, varied play. Will Jordan, meanwhile, has improved both as a fullback and a wing. Added strength and better contact technique now make him more effective in tight spaces. His footwork and versatility allow him to attack from deep or finish wide plays. Like Ben Smith, Jordan is becoming a dynamic, multi-role weapon who should be further developed at Test level.
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@canefan said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
I've given Mauss' last post the CGPT treatment
Jordie Barrett thrives at second five-eighth (12), with strong passing, defence, and decision-making. His recent struggles were due to a slow, conservative All Blacks attack, not individual flaws. France showed how to break down the Springboks with smart, varied play. Will Jordan, meanwhile, has improved both as a fullback and a wing. Added strength and better contact technique now make him more effective in tight spaces. His footwork and versatility allow him to attack from deep or finish wide plays. Like Ben Smith, Jordan is becoming a dynamic, multi-role weapon who should be further developed at Test level.
Can't say I've had a lot of experience with AI, apart from trying to deduce what's written by a real person and what's not.
The Jordan summary is all right, I suppose, if a bit reductionist. Less enthused about the Jordie-stuff, my point was very specific to the RWC final and the AB attack performance there in the first 20 minutes. And it doesn't even mention the Barrett hair-joke, which I thought was the best bit.
I'm going to start including tl;dr's.
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@canefan said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@booboo said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@Mauss said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Not that I really want to rehash the above discussion but for what little that it’s worth, in my view Jordie is most at home as a 12 and Will Jordan is (becoming) a 14/15.
Blaming Jordie for getting smashed behind the gainline is like blaming a Barrett for having a shit haircut: it’s the shape that matters. France didn’t simply launch a guy like Jonathan Danty (110 kg+) into the Bok defensive line in the RWC quarter final, they used short kicks over the top, they used wide passes off of turnover ball, they used box kicks, switch plays to the blindside, quick taps, pick-and-go’s, all to misdirect and overload the Bok defensive line speed.
In the entire first half, Danty carried the ball in first phase just three times: in the first one, he was stopped dead in his tracks and nearly turned over. In the second, he ran a hard line off a lineout, targeting Libbok in the defensive line. And in the third, he was manhandled by De Allende. For the majority, France manipulated the Bok defence in order to get Danty to run at single defenders in broken field play.
Jordie got smashed because the AB attack in the opening 20 minutes was too slow, too conservative and didn’t attack the space that was available with enough conviction. Put any other 12 in world rugby on the attacking backfoot against Du Toit, Etzebeth and Vermeulen and it’s easy to predict what will happen (putting Tupaea or Tavatavanawai in the same situation will change very little). Jordie Barrett has both the tools (passing off left and right, kicking game, offload, defensive prowess, breakdown threat) and the instincts (decision-making in tight spaces, communication, scanning, physicality) to be a very good midfielder. What he needs around him is an AB attack shape which is ambitious and clever, and is able to properly showcase his particular skillset.
As far as Will Jordan is concerned, he, as mentioned before, has taken considerable steps as a fullback, improving his decision-making, distribution, playmaking and kicking. But there are also signs that he could be more effective on the wing at Test level as well, as he looks to have considerably improved his work in close quarter contact, whether it be in defence, at the breakdown or on the attacking edge.
The basis of this seems to be some mass added to his frame as well the way he engages contact with a set defensive line. While he always excelled at running towards weak shoulders in broken play, he struggled with ready defenders and double tackles, often losing the ball by going too upright or hesitating before going into contact. On the basis of this season, and the SR finals series especially, he seems to have worked hard on this. He scored two tries against the Blues in the semi-final by running into crowded defensive spaces and in the final, he again displayed his increased comfort in close contact:
Jordan running into contact
Jordan uses footwork to fix his defender, gets into a lower body position and accelerates into contact. While these clips might seem innocuous enough, Jordan’s increased comfort in contact makes him, in my view, more of a genuine option on the wing against aggressive defences, the latter often seeking to dominate the contact on the edge in order to push teams back towards the middle. It means Jordan can be used for attacking the opposition in multiple ways and spaces, whether it’s as a scanner and organizer at the back or whether it’s at the end of an attacking chain, where he can use his footwork and increased comfort in contact to finish a strike.
He is, in other words, slowly turning into a version of Ben Smith which, obviously, is a very good thing. Smith’s value was both his attacking vision as well as his ability to be used in different ways, giving an attack coach a unique weapon to unlock opposition defences. For me, at least, it is looking like Jordan is becoming such a multifaceted option in his own right, his ability to attack multiple spaces throughout a game something which needs to be further cultivated at Test level.
Jeez @Mauss , you write like I've got time to
a. Read
b. Understand
What you've written.Love your stuff, but will try and comprehend it all in the morning!
I've given Mauss' last post the CGPT treatment
Jordie Barrett thrives at second five-eighth (12), with strong passing, defence, and decision-making. His recent struggles were due to a slow, conservative All Blacks attack, not individual flaws. France showed how to break down the Springboks with smart, varied play. Will Jordan, meanwhile, has improved both as a fullback and a wing. Added strength and better contact technique now make him more effective in tight spaces. His footwork and versatility allow him to attack from deep or finish wide plays. Like Ben Smith, Jordan is becoming a dynamic, multi-role weapon who should be further developed at Test level.
@Grok is this true?
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@Mauss said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@canefan said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
I've given Mauss' last post the CGPT treatment
Jordie Barrett thrives at second five-eighth (12), with strong passing, defence, and decision-making. His recent struggles were due to a slow, conservative All Blacks attack, not individual flaws. France showed how to break down the Springboks with smart, varied play. Will Jordan, meanwhile, has improved both as a fullback and a wing. Added strength and better contact technique now make him more effective in tight spaces. His footwork and versatility allow him to attack from deep or finish wide plays. Like Ben Smith, Jordan is becoming a dynamic, multi-role weapon who should be further developed at Test level.
Can't say I've had a lot of experience with AI, apart from trying to deduce what's written by a real person and what's not.
The Jordan summary is all right, I suppose, if a bit reductionist. Less enthused about the Jordie-stuff, my point was very specific to the RWC final and the AB attack performance there in the first 20 minutes. And it doesn't even mention the Barrett hair-joke, which I thought was the best bit.
I'm going to start including tl;dr's.
That's what you get with a 100 word limit! Probably needed to ask CGPT to add some context re-JB and the RWC
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@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
I guess these guys seeing themselves as pro level analysts of the game might find it a bit of failing when they get it so wrong.
Mirror....reflection time......
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@canefan said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@booboo said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@Mauss said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Not that I really want to rehash the above discussion but for what little that it’s worth, in my view Jordie is most at home as a 12 and Will Jordan is (becoming) a 14/15.
Blaming Jordie for getting smashed behind the gainline is like blaming a Barrett for having a shit haircut: it’s the shape that matters. France didn’t simply launch a guy like Jonathan Danty (110 kg+) into the Bok defensive line in the RWC quarter final, they used short kicks over the top, they used wide passes off of turnover ball, they used box kicks, switch plays to the blindside, quick taps, pick-and-go’s, all to misdirect and overload the Bok defensive line speed.
In the entire first half, Danty carried the ball in first phase just three times: in the first one, he was stopped dead in his tracks and nearly turned over. In the second, he ran a hard line off a lineout, targeting Libbok in the defensive line. And in the third, he was manhandled by De Allende. For the majority, France manipulated the Bok defence in order to get Danty to run at single defenders in broken field play.
Jordie got smashed because the AB attack in the opening 20 minutes was too slow, too conservative and didn’t attack the space that was available with enough conviction. Put any other 12 in world rugby on the attacking backfoot against Du Toit, Etzebeth and Vermeulen and it’s easy to predict what will happen (putting Tupaea or Tavatavanawai in the same situation will change very little). Jordie Barrett has both the tools (passing off left and right, kicking game, offload, defensive prowess, breakdown threat) and the instincts (decision-making in tight spaces, communication, scanning, physicality) to be a very good midfielder. What he needs around him is an AB attack shape which is ambitious and clever, and is able to properly showcase his particular skillset.
As far as Will Jordan is concerned, he, as mentioned before, has taken considerable steps as a fullback, improving his decision-making, distribution, playmaking and kicking. But there are also signs that he could be more effective on the wing at Test level as well, as he looks to have considerably improved his work in close quarter contact, whether it be in defence, at the breakdown or on the attacking edge.
The basis of this seems to be some mass added to his frame as well the way he engages contact with a set defensive line. While he always excelled at running towards weak shoulders in broken play, he struggled with ready defenders and double tackles, often losing the ball by going too upright or hesitating before going into contact. On the basis of this season, and the SR finals series especially, he seems to have worked hard on this. He scored two tries against the Blues in the semi-final by running into crowded defensive spaces and in the final, he again displayed his increased comfort in close contact:
Jordan running into contact
Jordan uses footwork to fix his defender, gets into a lower body position and accelerates into contact. While these clips might seem innocuous enough, Jordan’s increased comfort in contact makes him, in my view, more of a genuine option on the wing against aggressive defences, the latter often seeking to dominate the contact on the edge in order to push teams back towards the middle. It means Jordan can be used for attacking the opposition in multiple ways and spaces, whether it’s as a scanner and organizer at the back or whether it’s at the end of an attacking chain, where he can use his footwork and increased comfort in contact to finish a strike.
He is, in other words, slowly turning into a version of Ben Smith which, obviously, is a very good thing. Smith’s value was both his attacking vision as well as his ability to be used in different ways, giving an attack coach a unique weapon to unlock opposition defences. For me, at least, it is looking like Jordan is becoming such a multifaceted option in his own right, his ability to attack multiple spaces throughout a game something which needs to be further cultivated at Test level.
Jeez @Mauss , you write like I've got time to
a. Read
b. Understand
What you've written.Love your stuff, but will try and comprehend it all in the morning!
I've given Mauss' last post the CGPT treatment
Jordie Barrett thrives at second five-eighth (12), with strong passing, defence, and decision-making. His recent struggles were due to a slow, conservative All Blacks attack, not individual flaws. France showed how to break down the Springboks with smart, varied play. Will Jordan, meanwhile, has improved both as a fullback and a wing. Added strength and better contact technique now make him more effective in tight spaces. His footwork and versatility allow him to attack from deep or finish wide plays. Like Ben Smith, Jordan is becoming a dynamic, multi-role weapon who should be further developed at Test level.
I generally love your analysis @Mauss , but why bother going back to the WC final (which we nearly won)?
I would have thought we'd analyse how Jordie went last year under these coaches and this attacking system when we lost in Johannesburg with Jordie at 12 and lost in Cape town with Jordie at 12?
BTW, I'm not trying to put any of those results on Jordie himself (Ofa's YC was the turning point in the first game, arguably Lomax's YC in the latter) but if we are going to talk about Jordie at 12, we should be talking about how this coaching group uses him.
Edit: Apologies, looks like I replied to the wrong post, I'm referring to here.
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@gt12 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
I generally love your analysis @Mauss , but why bother going back to the WC final (which we nearly won)?
That's fair but I was mostly just referring to the RWC final because it was part of the above discussion on whether Jordie should be at 12 or 15.
Like here:
@MN5 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Has never stood out vs De Allende or Esterhuizen and PSDT hit him so hard and often in the WC final I can only assume he owed him some money.
My point is pretty general, I suppose, and can also be applied to the current coaching set-up: that it doesn't really matter how big your 12 is - whether it's Jonathan Danty or Bundee Aki or Timoci Tavatavanawai - if you don't have a particularly effective attacking shape, there's very little those players can do on their own, especially in the face of such a well-organized defence as that of the Boks.
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Very interesting talk from Ryan on the Rugbypod noting that Super rugby at the finals is a completely different beast to Super rugby in February.
He pointed to the team who won the scrum battle, and more importantly the penalties at the scrum battle; he cites 34 scrum penalties and the teams that were on the right side of that won.
You can feel that focus on the set piece as well with him noting that Finau is there because he is proper line out option. He talked about two locks who can play 6 - so one assumes them to be Vaai and Barrett.
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@gt12 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
I would have thought we'd analyse how Jordie went last year under these coaches and this attacking system when we lost in Johannesburg with Jordie at 12 and lost in Cape town with Jordie at 12?
Great, now I'm watching the Joburg Test again. But it's actually quite interesting seeing the different approaches between the French quarter final plan and the ABs at Ellis Park.
The ABs - I'm in the first 10 minutes - tend to use Jordie off of first phase lineout attack, as the carrier to set up the platform. The French, on the other hand, barely used Danty for this. Instead, they gave the ball to some of their bigger forwards - Uini Atonio and Charles Ollivon - to crash the ball up. Danty would then come into play in the next phases, either as distributor or as a carrier against smaller opposition players.
It does signal a bit of lack of originality from the AB coaches in the past year. I did hear Jason Ryan talk recently about ball carrying props, and it would make sense to let players like Tamaiti Williams or Pasilio Tosi do these crash balls, pushing Jordie into second phase and someone like McKenzie into the third, letting the latter construct the final part of the strike.
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@Mauss said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@gt12 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
I generally love your analysis @Mauss , but why bother going back to the WC final (which we nearly won)?
That's fair but I was mostly just referring to the RWC final because it was part of the above discussion on whether Jordie should be at 12 or 15.
Like here:
@MN5 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Has never stood out vs De Allende or Esterhuizen and PSDT hit him so hard and often in the WC final I can only assume he owed him some money.
My point is pretty general, I suppose, and can also be applied to the current coaching set-up: that it doesn't really matter how big your 12 is - whether it's Jonathan Danty or Bundee Aki or Timoci Tavatavanawai - if you don't have a particularly effective attacking shape, there's very little those players can do on their own, especially in the face of such a well-organized defence as that of the Boks.
I mostly agree, but a lot of that going through the middle was creating the space for those loop plays for Mo'unga. I'm not saying I liked them or that attack style, but I could see how it made defenders have to make decisions. From memory, that loop play worked once in the final, and had we kicked our goals, we might be hailing it as strategic brilliance as World champions.
My point is that looking at how he was used under Foster was with a specific goal in mind that does not necessarily translate to the current set-up and players. If you are going to use that analysis of yours, can you put it across to the new team? I'm interested.
Edit: I see you've already started having a look from the post above.
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@Mauss said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Great, now I'm watching the Joburg Test again.
Briefly following up on this (before doing something actually productive, thanks @gt12): there were some nice variations off lineout and scrum attack as the game went on, with Clarke trucking it up a number of times, as well as using Clarke to fake the run before shifting the point of attack towards the edge through McKenzie and Jordie (still no tight five crash balls, though, although that might’ve occurred in another Test). Also a nice strike move in the 51st minute, using Barrett as a kind of makeshift backdoor passer from a lineout over the top.
But it feels like a strange Test to evaluate Jordie’s role in the 12-jersey. If this Test makes anything clear, it’s that the ABs only really had one way to go, and that was wide. With Scott Barrett, Vaa’i, Blackadder, Cane and Savea as the back five, they were unable to make any dents in the Bok defensive line. It was just too easy to defend for the Springboks, they could put massive energy into their wide scramble defence as there was very little threat of a break up the middle.
So while it’s easy to blame the backs for this loss, it’s not the backline’s lack of size which is the problem, in my view. While the game-drivers (9, 10 and 15) did go to the backline way too much and too quickly, it was because they were constantly under threat of turning it over if they kept it among the forwards. So the AB forwards probably need to be a fair bit bigger and more physical in the contact in order to fix this, which the current selection policy seems to take into account (another lock/6, Holland, Finau, Sititi and Taukei’aho should help with this, in theory at least..).
But the forwards also need to be more creative and unstructured in their attacking of the ruck area, as the attack was often too premeditated for it to trouble the Bok defence too much. A few pick-and-go’s after quick ball, coupled with an offload and support play, could seriously stress a defence like that of the Boks. There seemed to be very little planning (or self-belief) on how they could attack the Boks in more ways than one, which is crucial if you’re dealing with line speed.
Hopefully we'll see some improvements in these areas this year. I suspect that if we do, the backline will look very good, very quickly.
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@cgrant said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Considering the players who have been selected, I would like a backline like this one :
Roigard
Love
Ioane
Tupaea
Proctor
Jordan
J. BarrettRatima
DMac
TavatavanawaiI'd be happy with this team - wouldn't mind Clarke getting a run though, he was good value last year.
From the backs selected in the squad, it's really only BB, Reece and (to a lesser extent) Hotham that I don't want to see in too many 23s (and ALB at 12/on the bench).
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@canefan said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Bryn Hall quite butthurt about EB and DH. So many MFers, don't know how they are going to get them all game time
How many Crusaders people do we need in the media whinging about their players missing out?
Both of them not being there is the right decision.
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