The painful truth about trainers: Are running shoes a waste

ACT Crusader

barefoot or jandals is the way to go xzxcool 
 
Asics are making a killing at the moment with the notion that their technology cuts out half the problems. Never wore them, but am like a foreign entity at the gym with what seems like everyone is wearing. I don't go on long runs so all the running shoe technology isn't a huge priority.

Mainlander

[quote name='Chubbs Peterson']I have mixed feelings about this article and the whole school of thought around this. I definitely think that just because your running shoes cost $300 it doesn't mean to say that they will be this magic remedy for your feet and make you a better runner. I used to buy the new Asics Kayano every year when the new model came out. Last year, I changed to the Nike Triax Structure and at half the price it is as good a shoe as the coveted Kayano. However, there is bound to be people out there who have switched from a cheaper shoe to the Kayano and think the exact opposite. Every foot is different. I think a huge problem out there is that many many people actually have the wrong type of shoe for their foot in the first place. 
 
As for the barefoot theory, they mentioned the Nike 'Free' shoe. When it first came out (around 2004/05) I was in the Nike store in Canberra and the assistant (a very good marathon runner himself) explained to me the theory behind it and stressed that it was not a running shoe replacement but a 'supplement'. He said that it should only be used a couple of times a week and only for runs of about 2 to 4km and then slowly building up from that. He reckoned that it would mimic the barefoot running technique and strengthen the foot just as they mention in the article. But it was definitely not a replacement for my normal running shoes. He said it would take a while to get used to them and I would be quite sore if I used them too much (I didn't buy them). 
 
Finally, if barefoot running (or using extremely flat/old style shoes) is so good for us then why don't the professional runners all train in their racing flats 100% of the time? 
 
I will be keeping my moderately priced running shoes for now thanks.[/quote] 
 
Sounds logical Chubbs, I bow to your superior knowledge, One of the problems I have with the article is that I (and I presume others) do most of our running walking on hard concrete paths and roads. That pounding on bare feet is going eventually hurt so your bit about breaking them in and limiting there use sounds reasonable. My dad always pointed out that horses that spent a lot of time on roads used to wear their shoes out quicker and their shoes are made of metal. 
 
My own problems started when I replaced my broken down old runners with some new fancy more expensive ones. But the feet pain I'm having doesn't incline me into drastically altering my current footwear. I replaced those new fancy ones with another pair of even more expensive new fancy ones sold to me funny enough by a Canberra shoe salesman who also does marathons. Bare feet is not the answer for me at the mo, I need to get over my current problems first wich Iâ€™ll admit the new new shoes are helping (along with a knee support, anti-inflammatories and pain killers before I start the run.) 
 
Well I'm off to do a 15 km run today although I somehow doubt I'll run the whole 15. xzxhang1

WillieTheWaiter

there was an article in the sunday star times about this as well... Dr Pain is my mate and I could see it working for him cause he's about 60kgs dripping wet.. but to someone like me i'm pretty keen to have that inch of protection - especially with my dodgy knee! 
 
[quote]Baring your sole 
By Steve Kilgallon - Sunday Star Times Last updated 05:00 19/07/2009SharePrint Text Size 
OPINION: Thirty years ago, the modern running shoe was invented. Since then, running-related injuries have risen. And so a growing movement of runners are taking to the streets barefoot. 
 
Perhaps no man has had more positive influence upon running than Arthur Lydiard. Yet you could, perversely, almost blame the Kiwi master-coach for the pernicious rise of the modern, high-technology running shoe even though Lydiard's cadre of world-class runners trained only in canvas plimsolls. 
 
American Bill Bowerman ran with Lydiard in the early 1970s, and returned home inspired to experiment with his wife's waffle iron to create the first Nike running shoe. Lydiard was aghast; he thought such footwear would cause injuries and poor technique. And as with so many other things, Lydiard, it appears, was ahead of his time. 
 
Since 2002, the 30th anniversary of the first Nike, and driven by statistics showing an alarming rise in running-related foot, ankle and knee injuries, a fringe community of runners have been rejecting shoes altogether and going barefoot. 
 
Now it threatens to go mainstream, and the mad movement's reluctant prophet is a very sane running writer, Chris MacDougall, whose story of conversion to barefoot theology makes inspiring reading. His manifesto appears in his new book, Born to Run, in which he writes: "Blaming the running injury epidemic on big, bad Nike seems too easy but that's OK, because there's a lot to throw at them". He says the book sits 13th on the US bestseller lists. 
 
SIX MONTHS ago, sick of constant muscle soreness in my hips and adductors which stopped me running the big miles I wanted to, I began visiting a sports biomechanist called (ironically) Greg Pain. 
 
Pain, who runs Auckland clinic BioSport, is a running heretic. He thinks 98% of people run wrongly and blames a Western culture which encourages us to take cars, buses and trains and sit at desks when we should be running and walking. He believes it causes us to become unbalanced, with overdeveloped thighs and hips which take on too much work and eventually lead to injury. 
 
He reconstructed my unique running style, which resembled an old lady chasing a bus while carrying four bags of shopping. Now I run straight-backed, with shorter strides, tensing my core muscles, firing' my gluteals (bum muscles) and hamstrings to flick my heels behind me to get more kick. I'm faster, more efficient and injury-free. A lot of what Pain and MacDougall say seems to fit. I threw Born to Run to Pain a fortnight ago. It was his Archimedes in the bathtub moment. "It's a great book," he says. "It challenges the way we wear shoes the way we do; even more so, it challenges our lifestyle." Ten days later, we went barefoot running. Ad Feedback As we trot through central Auckland, Greg spots two blokes looking at us as "if we were idiots". We pass a woman who gives me the disgusted glance you might cast at someone who allows their dog to foul the pavement and doesn't pick it up. We may be New Zealand's early-adopters: I suspect there aren't many other blokes running around the city without shoes. But they all laughed when Christopher Columbus said the world was round. This may be the future. It certainly seems to work. It's amazing how your stride immediately, unconsciously, changes when you run barefoot. It becomes shorter, choppier and lighter: something Pain preaches because it cuts the stress on your feet. In shoes, you almost always land on your heel, where the manufacturers place the most padding. Barefoot, you land on the natural cushion of your mid-foot. It's not painful, but you do feel every footfall, and not every surface is created equal: I found the dark asphalt of the road itself the best. In the interests of science, we burst across a muddy park. It's very tactile: like squeezing jelly between your fingers. I like it. So does Greg. On the phone from the US, MacDougall explains. "The foot is the greatest disciplinarian. You can't over-pronate, can't over-train, can't over-stride ... if you do anything wrong, the foot will tell you uh uh, don't do that'. Shoes are like morphine: a sedative that deadens the pain." 
 
Because the foot tells you how to run, MacDougall says anyone can make the transition within three weeks. He offers a few tips, then adds: "I still feel definitely the student here, not the master; very grudgingly I will give people a couple of pointers. I didn't feel qualified to at first, but I found it is so easy, there is little to teach." 
 
The science behind MacDougall's claims is impressive, led by a Newcastle University (Australia) study which found no evidence-based research to show high-tech running shoes are in any way beneficial. 
 
MacDougall's thesis boils down to this: the best shoes are the worst (one report suggested you are 123% more likely to sustain injury in more expensive shoes, because they offer too much support); feet like impact (and "it's preposterous to think that half an inch of rubber is going to make a difference" when 12 times your bodyweight pounds through them); and finally, that humans are designed to run shoeless, and shoes weaken you. He cites one doctor who describes them having the same wasting effect as plaster casts. 
 
Pain says the common ankle, back and knee problems his clients arrive with support these theories and says the shoeless science makes "perfect sense", although he'd only use barefoot running as a measured part of training. 
 
Born to Run isn't just an anti-Nike manifesto. It's also a fantastic tale of a reclusive tribe of Mexican Indians, the Tarahumara, who embark on two-day trail-race adventures wearing home-made leather sandals. It's the story of how MacDougall and a group of crack ultra-runners tracked them down to engage in an epic desert ultra-race. It's how the experience changed them all, and how MacDougall learned from them exactly how to run. The Tarahumura, incidentally, are aware of their subsequent impact on the running community, but, says MacDougall, don't care. "It's irrelevant to them; like talking about Hollywood to the Amish." 
 
The most extreme of the book's ultra-runners is `Barefoot' Ted MacDonald. By email, he says he doesn't think the movement will threaten the shoe giants. "Threaten, no. Allow 1000 blossoms to bloom, yes. I am not dogmatically barefoot, even though I think it is the best. I have no problem endorsing companies making minimal shoes and not telling me I'm broken by design." 
 
MacDougall, meanwhile, who ironically only began barefooting after the epic race (pushed into it by a broken toe) is now a devotee. Has it made him a better runner? 
 
"I see it differently than I would've a few years ago. If I could do a 3:59:59, instead of a four-hour, marathon, that was better. Now I couldn't give a shit about that 1sec. Better to me means I don't ever get hurt, I enjoy it, and I never dread it."[/quote]

Kirwan

I saw that MacDougall on the Daily Show, he looks like a big guy. That book would be more interesting to read about the Tarahumura, their races sound incredible.

Toddy

Read the book a couple of months ago and really enjoyed it. It gets a bit 'spiritual' sometimes which I'm not really in to but most of it is really interesting. It's made want to give barefoot running a go over summer.

reddog

Great book. Read it 6-months back. I run 2-3 marathons a year and have had the usual list of injuries that old open side flankers get. Knees, ankles, achilles. Recently I have ben doing my 5-mile recovery runs in VFFs. I have had no injury niggles since. They are very freaky looking. I get tonnes of comments on them whenever I wear them. In Japan they are trendy. In HK could not buy them so ordered them online. First saw them when I ran the San Fran marathon earlier this year.

mooshld

Wanted to chime in on this subject was going to start a new thread but checked first and see you guys covered this a few years back. 
 
I am a decent runner don't belong to a club or anything prefer to do my own thing, my PB for the marathon is 3:09 and this year I plan to break 3 hours, the misses bought me the born to run book for xmas and I got through it in 2 days. Its been a revelation for me. 
 
Some background, I was a prop at 106kg 4 years ago, I busted the fat using a purely scientific approach to inputs and outputs, you can check on the forum, got down to 78kg and started taking running a lot more seriously. I should add I still play, normally open side where size is less of an issue or somewhere in the backs if they are short. 
 
So anyway I have spent the first 3 months of the year re-constructing my running stride, why? I never had any serious injuries from running (plenty from rugby) the worst was some knee ligament strains that went away with physio. It was mostly because I had doubts I would be able to reach my goals. You see I need to gun under 7 minutes a mile consistently for a 3 hour marathon. In doing the 3:09 I was as close as I have ever run to complete and utter shutdown and that was like a 7:16 average. It took me 30 mins after the run to be able to stand and 3 hours before I could manage any food. The Misses said it was like I was drunker then she has ever seen me, and that's saying something. 
 
So the first 3 months of the new regime started badly I went on the Internet got some information on moving from being a heel striker to a forefoot runner. Then tried to apply it, pulled both my calf muscles, so I reduced the distance still pulling calf muscles, after a mile or so, slowly I ran through the pain and built up to almost 2 miles but it was not getting easier. I then went back to the Internet (is there anything it can't do?) and read anything I could get my hands on about forefoot landing, turns out its a misnomer, should be called mid foot landing, and in my efforts to re-learn, I had refused to touch my heals down at all, which was another huge mistake. I abandoned my trainers Mizuno pro-grids for those that are interested in such things, and picked up some Merrell bare foots. Stuck at it then one day on an early morning run it clicked into place, I leant my hips forward let my feet fall slightly behind me and let my heels touch the ground if they wanted the quicker cadence just fell into place. 
 
One month later and I am nearly where I was before I started this experiment running consistent 7:30's miles in training. But the weird thing is the recovery is different, I feel like I could run that every day of the week if I had the time, I have pushed a bit to see where the speed boundaries are and ran a 22 minute 5k. I doubt I have the style perfect yet I do look kind of like a pony with my weird foot lift and have not quite managed to figure out how to not go down hill without looking like I am completely out of control. But its getting there. 
 
Will keep you all updated on the progress but have already decided this is the way forward for me and will stick with it. 
 
ohh and the full list of goals for this year. 
 
5k beat the PB 19:02 
10K run under 40 minutes 
half marathon go under 1:26 
Marathon under 3 hours 
Ultra finish one any I don't even care about the time, am thinking of doing a 50 miler to start. 
 
Interested to hear others thoughts on this 
 
Mooshld

Hooroo

Wow!!! That is an amazing read (in terms of the changes) I still can't imagine the foot strike on the groung as you describe it. 
 
Definitely keep us up to date. 
 
I'm really enjoying my running at the moment but won't bore you or embarrass myself with the details <img src='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/invision/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

BartMan

way cool. is there any way you can maybe video your run and then watch a video on the internet and see if you are doing it right on the money?

Wairau

my only comment on this is when I use my Saloman trail running shoes, I get a sore knee (front of the knee cap), but when I use my Teva hiking sandals, there is no problem, principally I suspect because the sandals let the foot move naturally like being barefoot. 
 
So, don't run barefoot, get a pair of these: [IMG]http://www.shoes.com/ProductImages/shoes_iaec1195566.jpg[/IMG]

mooshld

Thanks for the encouragement guys, 
 
The truth of it is that you could video your stride and compare it but in actuality it would not tell you much and you would need some pretty heavy duty equipment to get down to the bones of it. The problem is that a foot strike takes place in a very small amount of time. So you would need some high speed cameras to accurately detail what is happening. Also as I said I have had a few injuries through rugby which may mean that I never strike exactly like any one else. The one that effects me the most is that I broke my right leg, but at the same time I dislocated my ankle and tore a ligament. The final thing of course is everyone is a little bit different look at Paula Radcliffe. Her upper body is all over the place you would never encourage someone to learn that. But it works for her. So there is no guarantee what you are looking at is any better then what you are doing. There are coaches but they cost a bomb and I think its probably only justifiable if you are having serious injury issues. 
 
I think the trick to figuring out if you're landing properly is two fold, first listening to your body if your heels are pinging you are landing too hard on them, if its your calves you are too far forward. The thin shoes help as sub consciously your body protects itself making micro adjustments that occur faster then you can make them consciously. It has become a mental effort to run in my old style and its painful in these shoes, they actually come with a warning on the box saying you will hurt yourself if you try that, or words to that effect. Secondly its the cadence if you had asked me before to run at 180 strides a minute I would have called you nuts, but the only way to do that is taking loads of these short quick steps, its not effortless yet, but hopefully soon I will be able to sit at that cadence. 
 
The relationship between cause and effect here is the really interesting thing take Kea's example. It could well be that his trail shoes are causing his knee pain, it could also be that when he runs in them they allow him to be less concerned about his form so he puts more stress on his knees. Now the sandals may actually let his foot move differently or they may not but they may also offer less protection and cause him to be more cautious with his form. Without getting thousands of people together and doing huge scientific trials its impossible to say with any statistical certainty. But then again who cares right if it works for you then do it, if those sandals allow you to run with out pain then I would use nothing else. 
 
One final observation, In my old style my feet were constantly calloused. Huge ones on my toes and the balls of my feet not a problem at all I always figured it was a natural thing. Whether its the new style or the time its taken to adapt I do not know, but they have almost gone completely. 
 
Ohh and I track my runs on Endomondo so I can post updates if people are interested, maybe I will bring back my fatbusting log and change it into a 3 hour marathon log. Have been lurking on the site for a few years now but maybe its time for a comeback. 
 
Mooshld 
 
P.s. Hooroo any race you finish is one you should not be embarrassed about I ran my first half marathon at 106kg took me 2:20 at the time I was gutted but looking back it was probably one of my best efforts ever. I very much doubt I could beat that with 30kg in a back pack.

davidav

"Minimalist" training shoes are becoming a lot more popular here in the States. I haven't tried them yet and I'm a bit hesitant due to the fact that I'm built more like a prop than a runner--worried about the impact to my knees with zero padding. But the concept is definitely interesting. I'm always toying with the idea of giving it a try to see how it feels. 
 
Here's a website with a whole range of different minimalist type running shoes: 
 
[url]http://minimalistrunningshoes.org/[/url]

mooshld

[quote name='davidav']"Minimalist" training shoes are becoming a lot more popular here in the States. I haven't tried them yet and I'm a bit hesitant due to the fact that I'm built more like a prop than a runner--worried about the impact to my knees with zero padding. But the concept is definitely interesting. I'm always toying with the idea of giving it a try to see how it feels. 
 
Here's a website with a whole range of different minimalist type running shoes: 
 
[url]http://minimalistrunningshoes.org/[/url][/QUOTE] 
 
Save yourself the cash davidav and teach yourself the style by running barefoot first, if you like it and it suits you then get the shoes. If you buy the shoes and try and run in a heal toe fashion, you will get injured and you will have just blown the cash. 
 
Mooshld.

davidav

[quote name='mooshld']Save yourself the cash davidav and teach yourself the style by running barefoot first, if you like it and it suits you then get the shoes. If you buy the shoes and try and run in a heal toe fashion, you will get injured and you will have just blown the cash. 
 
Mooshld.[/QUOTE] 
 
That is a sensible suggestion, but the idea of running totally barefoot on roads frightens me. Stepping on pebbles, glass and such.

scruffy-lookin

I bought a pair of the New Balance Minimus about three weeks ago so I'm just easing into them. I've been running with varying seriousness for the last three years or so - one marathon (3:39) and just under 20 half marathons (PB 1:37). I pronate and have worn mid-range Mizunos for road and an assortment of off-road shoes. Generally I've been pretty happy with my shoes and, while I haven't picked up any serious injuries directly related to running, I have the usual niggles particularly right hip and knee "issues". 
 
Like a lot of people the barefoot running movement has intrigued me and the idea of running with less pain is very attractive. 
 
I got the off road Minimus and have had two trail runs, two beach runs and a few short park sessions. Overall I've been pretty happy with them. They have a nice feel with the variety of conditions I've used them in (grass, sand, trail and mud). I got a little ahead of myself and did about 40 mins on the beach for my second run in them and paid for it over the next two days - especially when standing up or walking down stairs. After that initial over-reach, I eased back for a while and have slowly worked my way up to an 1:10 minute trail run today. 
 
I'm planning on using the Minimus in the first race of the xterra trail running series in late May look to be on course at this stage. 
 
At this stage I have no set plans to ditch my road runners in favour of barefoot running or for one of the road Minimus options but I'm open to the future possibility.

ACT Crusader

A couple of weeks ago I listened to this professor. His own experience was intriguing. 
 
[url]http://www.abc.net.au/rn/lifematters/stories/2011/3175756.htm[/url]

Voltron

[quote name='davidav'][quote name='mooshld']Save yourself the cash davidav and teach yourself the style by running barefoot first, if you like it and it suits you then get the shoes. If you buy the shoes and try and run in a heal toe fashion, you will get injured and you will have just blown the cash. 
 
Mooshld.[/QUOTE] 
 
That is a sensible suggestion, but the idea of running totally barefoot on roads frightens me. Stepping on pebbles, glass and such.[/QUOTE] 
 
Im gonna try it on the treadmill first, then get the shoes and try the road if all goes well

mooshld

Great to hear there is a bit of interest out there about this and I have not become some back water hippy. 
 
I think voltron has it spot on. Try it on the beach in the park or at the gym first then if you think its for you make an investment. I would say that the key thing to concentrate when trying to run in that style is to keep the steps short and the cadence high, it will mean you learn fast foot strikes and thats what its all about. As for worrying about pronation and the like, well if you are mid footing properly its a non issue, as pronation can only occur when you heel strike with you foot in front of you and roll over your ankle, if you land on your midfoot with your leg under you then quickly touch your heal down the rotational force on the ankle wont exist. In born to run they talk more about this and how pronation has only existed since we first started running in the heel toe style before that it was unheard of. 
 
The final piece of advice I would give is start short maybe a few reps of 400m with rests and stretching take a month or so to build it up before trying a 30 min session. Oh and ask your gym first if its okay to go barefoot, I was doing some treadmill work in a hotel gym and the receptionist almost had a heart attack. 
 
Thanks for the link ACT Crusader will listen when home from work.

ACT Crusader

mooshld - check this link out [URL]http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2010/s2803692.htm[/URL]

reddog

Interesting to read this thread being reactivated. I run mid-foot style mostly(but during a marathon I change from front, mid to heel striking to reduce fatigue) and no longer use my VFFs at all other than to the gym. When I strted races about 4-years back all my race photos showed heavy heel stike tendencies. Now I usually see good mid-foot technique unless I am making a chart to the line. 
 
Nice goals Mooshld. I think to run sub 3 you need a faster 10km1/2m than40minutes and 1.26. I have run both those distances faster than that but still not reached the desired sub-3 yet. But travel to far flung races makes it difficult as I live in Hong Kong and the envoronment/climate is not conducive to the marathon. 
 
I want 5-minutes off my marathon PR to get down to sub-3. Was going to have a crack at it Rotorua this week actually but some hip bursitis after a twisty 10km race has knocked this mths training so will now probably just run the half easy and give it a crack at the Gold Coast.

The Silver Fern

The painful truth about trainers: Are running shoes a waste