The painful truth about trainers: Are running shoes a waste
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Wanted to chime in on this subject was going to start a new thread but checked first and see you guys covered this a few years back.<br />
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I am a decent runner don't belong to a club or anything prefer to do my own thing, my PB for the marathon is 3:09 and this year I plan to break 3 hours, the misses bought me the born to run book for xmas and I got through it in 2 days. Its been a revelation for me.<br />
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Some background, I was a prop at 106kg 4 years ago, I busted the fat using a purely scientific approach to inputs and outputs, you can check on the forum, got down to 78kg and started taking running a lot more seriously. I should add I still play, normally open side where size is less of an issue or somewhere in the backs if they are short.<br />
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So anyway I have spent the first 3 months of the year re-constructing my running stride, why? I never had any serious injuries from running (plenty from rugby) the worst was some knee ligament strains that went away with physio. It was mostly because I had doubts I would be able to reach my goals. You see I need to gun under 7 minutes a mile consistently for a 3 hour marathon. In doing the 3:09 I was as close as I have ever run to complete and utter shutdown and that was like a 7:16 average. It took me 30 mins after the run to be able to stand and 3 hours before I could manage any food. The Misses said it was like I was drunker then she has ever seen me, and that's saying something.<br />
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So the first 3 months of the new regime started badly I went on the Internet got some information on moving from being a heel striker to a forefoot runner. Then tried to apply it, pulled both my calf muscles, so I reduced the distance still pulling calf muscles, after a mile or so, slowly I ran through the pain and built up to almost 2 miles but it was not getting easier. I then went back to the Internet (is there anything it can't do?) and read anything I could get my hands on about forefoot landing, turns out its a misnomer, should be called mid foot landing, and in my efforts to re-learn, I had refused to touch my heals down at all, which was another huge mistake. I abandoned my trainers Mizuno pro-grids for those that are interested in such things, and picked up some Merrell bare foots. Stuck at it then one day on an early morning run it clicked into place, I leant my hips forward let my feet fall slightly behind me and let my heels touch the ground if they wanted the quicker cadence just fell into place. <br />
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One month later and I am nearly where I was before I started this experiment running consistent 7:30's miles in training. But the weird thing is the recovery is different, I feel like I could run that every day of the week if I had the time, I have pushed a bit to see where the speed boundaries are and ran a 22 minute 5k. I doubt I have the style perfect yet I do look kind of like a pony with my weird foot lift and have not quite managed to figure out how to not go down hill without looking like I am completely out of control. But its getting there.<br />
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Will keep you all updated on the progress but have already decided this is the way forward for me and will stick with it.<br />
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ohh and the full list of goals for this year.<br />
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5k beat the PB 19:02<br />
10K run under 40 minutes<br />
half marathon go under 1:26<br />
Marathon under 3 hours<br />
Ultra finish one any I don't even care about the time, am thinking of doing a 50 miler to start.<br />
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Interested to hear others thoughts on this<br />
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Mooshld -
Wow!!! That is an amazing read (in terms of the changes) I still can't imagine the foot strike on the groung as you describe it.<br />
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Definitely keep us up to date.<br />
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I'm really enjoying my running at the moment but won't bore you or embarrass myself with the details <img src='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/invision/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> -
my only comment on this is when I use my Saloman trail running shoes, I get a sore knee (front of the knee cap), but when I use my Teva hiking sandals, there is no problem, principally I suspect because the sandals let the foot move naturally like being barefoot.<br />
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So, don't run barefoot, get a pair of these: [IMG]http://www.shoes.com/ProductImages/shoes_iaec1195566.jpg[/IMG] -
Thanks for the encouragement guys,<br />
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The truth of it is that you could video your stride and compare it but in actuality it would not tell you much and you would need some pretty heavy duty equipment to get down to the bones of it. The problem is that a foot strike takes place in a very small amount of time. So you would need some high speed cameras to accurately detail what is happening. Also as I said I have had a few injuries through rugby which may mean that I never strike exactly like any one else. The one that effects me the most is that I broke my right leg, but at the same time I dislocated my ankle and tore a ligament. The final thing of course is everyone is a little bit different look at Paula Radcliffe. Her upper body is all over the place you would never encourage someone to learn that. But it works for her. So there is no guarantee what you are looking at is any better then what you are doing. There are coaches but they cost a bomb and I think its probably only justifiable if you are having serious injury issues.<br />
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I think the trick to figuring out if you're landing properly is two fold, first listening to your body if your heels are pinging you are landing too hard on them, if its your calves you are too far forward. The thin shoes help as sub consciously your body protects itself making micro adjustments that occur faster then you can make them consciously. It has become a mental effort to run in my old style and its painful in these shoes, they actually come with a warning on the box saying you will hurt yourself if you try that, or words to that effect. Secondly its the cadence if you had asked me before to run at 180 strides a minute I would have called you nuts, but the only way to do that is taking loads of these short quick steps, its not effortless yet, but hopefully soon I will be able to sit at that cadence.<br />
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The relationship between cause and effect here is the really interesting thing take Kea's example. It could well be that his trail shoes are causing his knee pain, it could also be that when he runs in them they allow him to be less concerned about his form so he puts more stress on his knees. Now the sandals may actually let his foot move differently or they may not but they may also offer less protection and cause him to be more cautious with his form. Without getting thousands of people together and doing huge scientific trials its impossible to say with any statistical certainty. But then again who cares right if it works for you then do it, if those sandals allow you to run with out pain then I would use nothing else.<br />
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One final observation, In my old style my feet were constantly calloused. Huge ones on my toes and the balls of my feet not a problem at all I always figured it was a natural thing. Whether its the new style or the time its taken to adapt I do not know, but they have almost gone completely.<br />
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Ohh and I track my runs on Endomondo so I can post updates if people are interested, maybe I will bring back my fatbusting log and change it into a 3 hour marathon log. Have been lurking on the site for a few years now but maybe its time for a comeback.<br />
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Mooshld<br />
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P.s. Hooroo any race you finish is one you should not be embarrassed about I ran my first half marathon at 106kg took me 2:20 at the time I was gutted but looking back it was probably one of my best efforts ever. I very much doubt I could beat that with 30kg in a back pack. -
"Minimalist" training shoes are becoming a lot more popular here in the States. I haven't tried them yet and I'm a bit hesitant due to the fact that I'm built more like a prop than a runner--worried about the impact to my knees with zero padding. But the concept is definitely interesting. I'm always toying with the idea of giving it a try to see how it feels.<br />
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Here's a website with a whole range of different minimalist type running shoes:<br />
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[url]http://minimalistrunningshoes.org/[/url] -
[quote name='davidav']"Minimalist" training shoes are becoming a lot more popular here in the States. I haven't tried them yet and I'm a bit hesitant due to the fact that I'm built more like a prop than a runner--worried about the impact to my knees with zero padding. But the concept is definitely interesting. I'm always toying with the idea of giving it a try to see how it feels.<br />
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Here's a website with a whole range of different minimalist type running shoes:<br />
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[url]http://minimalistrunningshoes.org/[/url][/QUOTE]<br />
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Save yourself the cash davidav and teach yourself the style by running barefoot first, if you like it and it suits you then get the shoes. If you buy the shoes and try and run in a heal toe fashion, you will get injured and you will have just blown the cash.<br />
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Mooshld. -
[quote name='mooshld']Save yourself the cash davidav and teach yourself the style by running barefoot first, if you like it and it suits you then get the shoes. If you buy the shoes and try and run in a heal toe fashion, you will get injured and you will have just blown the cash.<br />
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Mooshld.[/QUOTE]<br />
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That is a sensible suggestion, but the idea of running totally barefoot on roads frightens me. Stepping on pebbles, glass and such. -
I bought a pair of the New Balance Minimus about three weeks ago so I'm just easing into them. I've been running with varying seriousness for the last three years or so - one marathon (3:39) and just under 20 half marathons (PB 1:37). I pronate and have worn mid-range Mizunos for road and an assortment of off-road shoes. Generally I've been pretty happy with my shoes and, while I haven't picked up any serious injuries directly related to running, I have the usual niggles particularly right hip and knee "issues". <br />
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Like a lot of people the barefoot running movement has intrigued me and the idea of running with less pain is very attractive. <br />
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I got the off road Minimus and have had two trail runs, two beach runs and a few short park sessions. Overall I've been pretty happy with them. They have a nice feel with the variety of conditions I've used them in (grass, sand, trail and mud). I got a little ahead of myself and did about 40 mins on the beach for my second run in them and paid for it over the next two days - especially when standing up or walking down stairs. After that initial over-reach, I eased back for a while and have slowly worked my way up to an 1:10 minute trail run today. <br />
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I'm planning on using the Minimus in the first race of the xterra trail running series in late May look to be on course at this stage. <br />
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At this stage I have no set plans to ditch my road runners in favour of barefoot running or for one of the road Minimus options but I'm open to the future possibility. -
A couple of weeks ago I listened to this professor. His own experience was intriguing. <br />
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[url]http://www.abc.net.au/rn/lifematters/stories/2011/3175756.htm[/url] -
[quote name='davidav'][quote name='mooshld']Save yourself the cash davidav and teach yourself the style by running barefoot first, if you like it and it suits you then get the shoes. If you buy the shoes and try and run in a heal toe fashion, you will get injured and you will have just blown the cash.<br />
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Mooshld.[/QUOTE]<br />
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That is a sensible suggestion, but the idea of running totally barefoot on roads frightens me. Stepping on pebbles, glass and such.[/QUOTE]<br />
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Im gonna try it on the treadmill first, then get the shoes and try the road if all goes well -
Great to hear there is a bit of interest out there about this and I have not become some back water hippy.<br />
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I think voltron has it spot on. Try it on the beach in the park or at the gym first then if you think its for you make an investment. I would say that the key thing to concentrate when trying to run in that style is to keep the steps short and the cadence high, it will mean you learn fast foot strikes and thats what its all about. As for worrying about pronation and the like, well if you are mid footing properly its a non issue, as pronation can only occur when you heel strike with you foot in front of you and roll over your ankle, if you land on your midfoot with your leg under you then quickly touch your heal down the rotational force on the ankle wont exist. In born to run they talk more about this and how pronation has only existed since we first started running in the heel toe style before that it was unheard of.<br />
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The final piece of advice I would give is start short maybe a few reps of 400m with rests and stretching take a month or so to build it up before trying a 30 min session. Oh and ask your gym first if its okay to go barefoot, I was doing some treadmill work in a hotel gym and the receptionist almost had a heart attack.<br />
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Thanks for the link ACT Crusader will listen when home from work. -
mooshld - check this link out [URL]http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2010/s2803692.htm[/URL]
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Interesting to read this thread being reactivated. I run mid-foot style mostly(but during a marathon I change from front, mid to heel striking to reduce fatigue) and no longer use my VFFs at all other than to the gym. When I strted races about 4-years back all my race photos showed heavy heel stike tendencies. Now I usually see good mid-foot technique unless I am making a chart to the line. <br />
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Nice goals Mooshld. I think to run sub 3 you need a faster 10km1/2m than40minutes and 1.26. I have run both those distances faster than that but still not reached the desired sub-3 yet. But travel to far flung races makes it difficult as I live in Hong Kong and the envoronment/climate is not conducive to the marathon. <br />
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I want 5-minutes off my marathon PR to get down to sub-3. Was going to have a crack at it Rotorua this week actually but some hip bursitis after a twisty 10km race has knocked this mths training so will now probably just run the half easy and give it a crack at the Gold Coast. -
Thanks for the advice red dog the other goals are not really part of the marathon training plan, just some things I want to do this year. I have no real training plan when it comes to the 3 hour marathon other then to get a lot of miles under my belt at a descent clip. Then on the big day give it a go. I am targeting the Brussels marathon again as this is where I have run my last two and I figure it makes it a fair comparison. The only other idea I had was to train till September then shed 5 kilos so that I race at a really light weight.<br />
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I have also had a setback this week when I seem to have torn another calf muscle. Not sure what went wrong, was probably just pushing too hard I guess, need to ease back a bit and build up again slowly.<br />
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Mooshld. -
Interesting thread guys, thanks for sharing your experiences. I was about to start a thread on this because I have been thinking about giving barefoot/minimalist running a go in the wake of me going from one injury to another over the last couple of years. You name it, I have had it. Achillies, calf, hip, knee, hamstring, arch. I love running ands it gets me down thinking I may have to give up if I can't beat the injuries.
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go hard hiking with teva sandals-plenty of movement if needed, grip, cushioning, and the hard hiking (up hundred s of stairs 2 by 2) is a solid leg and lung burning exercise. Sprint up them when fitter to train for running. I have no calf problems. YMMV, good luck
