Use of the TMO
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Oh my favourite subject! The widening of the TMO has failed, for all the reasons above.
I think the only solution that people will accept is an appeal system. Give each team a fixed number and let them tell the ref what they want checked. TMO agrees and they keep the appeal. TMO disagrees, you lose a sub (no subs left? No appeals).
The on field ref can refer himself but only for tries and only in the last phase (with the conceding team being given an option to request a specific play checked if they choose to use a review at the same time as the ref refers so they can't watch the replay and request a review).
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I think we can safely bypass this entire process and have the judicial commissioner and two ex-players on the horn instead.
Ref: "So after stepping through the process and applicable laws, I'm thinking red card?"
Judiciary: "Nah mate"
Ref: "So yellow then?"
Judiciary: "Probs a penalty against black for falling on his head eh?" -
@barbarian said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
my problem with that is relevance? How and why was that required?
And that's the kicker. I understand your arguments above - we are the problem. We are the reason we have this system in the first place.
But now we're solving things that aren't even problems. If the TMO didn't intervene on that, would there have been outrage? Maybe from the most one-eyed Irish fans, but I don't think the vast majority would bat an eyelid.
Well, actually, that's a very very large sub-population.
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The biggest 'tragedy' is that the NRL 'abandoned' their in-goal touch judges after just one year to go with the new-fangled TMO. Where League went, union belatedly went (but skipped the in-goal touchies entirely).
We just wanted to know about groundings .......
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I agree it has got a bit silly.
What annoys me most is the cryptic way the ref and tmo talk to each other. The whole "can you give me a reason not to not award a try". Then a cryptic answer back from the tmo etc. It just makes them sound incompetent when both are trying to avoid being the one that makes the call.
Just tell him what you want checked and whether there was an advantage and the tmo checks it and makes the call.I would also limit the foul play check to ones referred by the on field officials and encourage them to say "nothing in it, play on" if it is minor. So often we see a penalty given just because they have stopped to check.
Can't really see WR back tracking on any of this stuff though.
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Good article fella.
I'd he happy to go to an NFL style tmo, where the ref makes a call and it gets overturned only if it is clear and obvious.
Also, the game is almost unrefereeable. So many conflicting laws, and so many players pushing the line all the time
Spectators at the ground get treated like rubbish, and that could be done better. Big screen, or an announcement on the PA.
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Just for the in-goal is all I'm interested in.
But ...
Because they've let the forward pass rule gets so 'flat', the margin of error is ridiculous and a ref can't pick it up with his naked eye. (but TMOs can't rule consistently on forward passes either .... and might have to use the 'best' possible camera angle which is at 45 degrees for passes near the try line )
Because they've let obstruction become semi-legal if it isn't material, a ref is seeing countless bodies moving in front of the ball, with some slightly impeding and others not, and can't tell anymore.
My solution would require a lot of clocks to be turned back, and I obviously don't see any of that happening.
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@pukunui said in Use of the TMO:
Maybe the two ref system is the solution to reducing the influence of the tmo. One ref to watch the offside line and then off the ball stuff. The other to watch the breakdown and tackles. Linesmen to do whatever they do now (which seems to be not much)
The problem with that is the blindside assistant is supposed to watch the breakdown while the openside helps with offside.
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@pukunui said in Use of the TMO:
Maybe the two ref system is the solution to reducing the influence of the tmo. One ref to watch the offside line and then off the ball stuff. The other to watch the breakdown and tackles. Linesmen to do whatever they do now (which seems to be not much)
not sure it's a success in the NRL, which is a much easier game to referee. Imagine as a player dealing with two different "feels" for the game
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Lots of contradiction in responses.
Rugby Union has and will always sit somewhere between American Football and Basketball in terms of continuity and flow.
That's what makes it Rugby Union.
Some matches the needle is slowed towards American Football by TMO involvement, some matches it isn't.
But the TMO process is here, and it's here to stay thankfully.
If we want multiple phase, flowing rugby then the TMO process has to start where the first transgression is thought to have happened. If that's 15 phases back then so be it. We've just enjoyed a 15 phase high speed chess match which may or may not have resulted in a try.
Arbitrarily tracking back 1, 2 or X phases is nonsensical IMHO.
Is it perfect? Far from it.
Is it better? For me, yes.
There are a number of things which can change to make the game faster, but when the TMO is employed it should always be a measured, thoughtful process.
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@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
If we want multiple phase, flowing rugby then the TMO process has to start where the first transgression is thought to have happened. If that's 15 phases back then so be it. We've just enjoyed a 15 phase high speed chess match which may or may not have resulted in a try
what. the. fuck.
and what, precisely, should we be looking at 15 phases back michael? tiny knock ons? suspect side entry? at some point in that 15 phases i can guarantee someone transgressed. Why do you hate points michael? is it because you are Welsh and you don't really know what they are?
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@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
If we want multiple phase, flowing rugby then the TMO process has to start where the first transgression is thought to have happened. If that's 15 phases back then so be it. We've just enjoyed a 15 phase high speed chess match which may or may not have resulted in a try
what. the. fuck.
and what, precisely, should we be looking at 15 phases back michael? tiny knock ons? suspect side entry? at some point in that 15 phases i can guarantee someone transgressed. Why do you hate points michael? is it because you are Welsh and you don't really know what they are?
So if I've read your reply correctly, rugby union is all about scoring points (tries) and it doesn't matter if there were single or multiple infringements leading up to the scoring of said points (tries) as long as it was dotted down ok and we don't have to sit through interminable seconds or minutes of TMO procrastination then 'it's all good'.
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@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
If we want multiple phase, flowing rugby then the TMO process has to start where the first transgression is thought to have happened. If that's 15 phases back then so be it. We've just enjoyed a 15 phase high speed chess match which may or may not have resulted in a try
what. the. fuck.
and what, precisely, should we be looking at 15 phases back michael? tiny knock ons? suspect side entry? at some point in that 15 phases i can guarantee someone transgressed. Why do you hate points michael? is it because you are Welsh and you don't really know what they are?
So if I've read your reply correctly, rugby union is all about scoring points (tries) and it doesn't matter if there were single or multiple infringements leading up to the scoring of said points (tries) as long as it was dotted down ok and we don't have to sit through interminable seconds or minutes of TMO procrastination then 'it's all good'.
kinda. I'm saying any stretch of phases is going to involve a heap of infringements that would be picked up by slow motion and endless replays. That's rugby. If you give carte blanche powers to a TMO to just go back and look at shit, nearly every try is going to get rubbed out.
IMO the game is so fluid it is actually about what you get away with.
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@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
If we want multiple phase, flowing rugby then the TMO process has to start where the first transgression is thought to have happened. If that's 15 phases back then so be it. We've just enjoyed a 15 phase high speed chess match which may or may not have resulted in a try
what. the. fuck.
and what, precisely, should we be looking at 15 phases back michael? tiny knock ons? suspect side entry? at some point in that 15 phases i can guarantee someone transgressed. Why do you hate points michael? is it because you are Welsh and you don't really know what they are?
So if I've read your reply correctly, rugby union is all about scoring points (tries) and it doesn't matter if there were single or multiple infringements leading up to the scoring of said points (tries) as long as it was dotted down ok and we don't have to sit through interminable seconds or minutes of TMO procrastination then 'it's all good'.
kinda. I'm saying any stretch of phases is going to involve a heap of infringements that would be picked up by slow motion and endless replays. That's rugby. If you give carte blanche powers to a TMO to just go back and look at shit, nearly every try is going to get rubbed out.
IMO the game is so fluid it is actually about what you get away with.
Ah the old Antipodean 'beg for forgiveness, not ask for permission '
So shut infringements down at source, and if they're missed c'est la vie
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@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
If we want multiple phase, flowing rugby then the TMO process has to start where the first transgression is thought to have happened. If that's 15 phases back then so be it. We've just enjoyed a 15 phase high speed chess match which may or may not have resulted in a try
what. the. fuck.
and what, precisely, should we be looking at 15 phases back michael? tiny knock ons? suspect side entry? at some point in that 15 phases i can guarantee someone transgressed. Why do you hate points michael? is it because you are Welsh and you don't really know what they are?
So if I've read your reply correctly, rugby union is all about scoring points (tries) and it doesn't matter if there were single or multiple infringements leading up to the scoring of said points (tries) as long as it was dotted down ok and we don't have to sit through interminable seconds or minutes of TMO procrastination then 'it's all good'.
kinda. I'm saying any stretch of phases is going to involve a heap of infringements that would be picked up by slow motion and endless replays. That's rugby. If you give carte blanche powers to a TMO to just go back and look at shit, nearly every try is going to get rubbed out.
IMO the game is so fluid it is actually about what you get away with.
Ah the old Antipodean 'beg for forgiveness, not ask for permission '
That's my mantra as a married man, yes.
Just seen your edit. yes. if you get away with it in real time, you get away with it.
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@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
If we want multiple phase, flowing rugby then the TMO process has to start where the first transgression is thought to have happened. If that's 15 phases back then so be it. We've just enjoyed a 15 phase high speed chess match which may or may not have resulted in a try
what. the. fuck.
and what, precisely, should we be looking at 15 phases back michael? tiny knock ons? suspect side entry? at some point in that 15 phases i can guarantee someone transgressed. Why do you hate points michael? is it because you are Welsh and you don't really know what they are?
So if I've read your reply correctly, rugby union is all about scoring points (tries) and it doesn't matter if there were single or multiple infringements leading up to the scoring of said points (tries) as long as it was dotted down ok and we don't have to sit through interminable seconds or minutes of TMO procrastination then 'it's all good'.
kinda. I'm saying any stretch of phases is going to involve a heap of infringements that would be picked up by slow motion and endless replays. That's rugby. If you give carte blanche powers to a TMO to just go back and look at shit, nearly every try is going to get rubbed out.
IMO the game is so fluid it is actually about what you get away with.
Ah the old Antipodean 'beg for forgiveness, not ask for permission '
That's my mantra as a married man, yes.
Just seen your edit. yes. if you get away with it in real time, you get away with it.
Due to human nature, this will unfortunately favour the rule breakers over the play makers IMHO
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@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
If we want multiple phase, flowing rugby then the TMO process has to start where the first transgression is thought to have happened. If that's 15 phases back then so be it. We've just enjoyed a 15 phase high speed chess match which may or may not have resulted in a try
what. the. fuck.
and what, precisely, should we be looking at 15 phases back michael? tiny knock ons? suspect side entry? at some point in that 15 phases i can guarantee someone transgressed. Why do you hate points michael? is it because you are Welsh and you don't really know what they are?
So if I've read your reply correctly, rugby union is all about scoring points (tries) and it doesn't matter if there were single or multiple infringements leading up to the scoring of said points (tries) as long as it was dotted down ok and we don't have to sit through interminable seconds or minutes of TMO procrastination then 'it's all good'.
kinda. I'm saying any stretch of phases is going to involve a heap of infringements that would be picked up by slow motion and endless replays. That's rugby. If you give carte blanche powers to a TMO to just go back and look at shit, nearly every try is going to get rubbed out.
IMO the game is so fluid it is actually about what you get away with.
Ah the old Antipodean 'beg for forgiveness, not ask for permission '
That's my mantra as a married man, yes.
Just seen your edit. yes. if you get away with it in real time, you get away with it.
Due to human nature, this will unfortunately favour the rule breakers over the play makers IMHO
all rugby players are rule breakers. all of them. some of them intentionally, some by accident, some out of desperation. But everyone, everyone breaks the rules of rugby during the game to gain an advantage.
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@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
If we want multiple phase, flowing rugby then the TMO process has to start where the first transgression is thought to have happened. If that's 15 phases back then so be it. We've just enjoyed a 15 phase high speed chess match which may or may not have resulted in a try
what. the. fuck.
and what, precisely, should we be looking at 15 phases back michael? tiny knock ons? suspect side entry? at some point in that 15 phases i can guarantee someone transgressed. Why do you hate points michael? is it because you are Welsh and you don't really know what they are?
So if I've read your reply correctly, rugby union is all about scoring points (tries) and it doesn't matter if there were single or multiple infringements leading up to the scoring of said points (tries) as long as it was dotted down ok and we don't have to sit through interminable seconds or minutes of TMO procrastination then 'it's all good'.
kinda. I'm saying any stretch of phases is going to involve a heap of infringements that would be picked up by slow motion and endless replays. That's rugby. If you give carte blanche powers to a TMO to just go back and look at shit, nearly every try is going to get rubbed out.
IMO the game is so fluid it is actually about what you get away with.
Ah the old Antipodean 'beg for forgiveness, not ask for permission '
That's my mantra as a married man, yes.
Just seen your edit. yes. if you get away with it in real time, you get away with it.
Due to human nature, this will unfortunately favour the rule breakers over the play makers IMHO
all rugby players are rule breakers. all of them. some of them intentionally, some by accident, some out of desperation. But everyone, everyone breaks the rules of rugby during the game to gain an advantage.
It's that first group of bastards which worries me.
Next stop, wendyball.
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@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
If we want multiple phase, flowing rugby then the TMO process has to start where the first transgression is thought to have happened. If that's 15 phases back then so be it. We've just enjoyed a 15 phase high speed chess match which may or may not have resulted in a try
what. the. fuck.
and what, precisely, should we be looking at 15 phases back michael? tiny knock ons? suspect side entry? at some point in that 15 phases i can guarantee someone transgressed. Why do you hate points michael? is it because you are Welsh and you don't really know what they are?
So if I've read your reply correctly, rugby union is all about scoring points (tries) and it doesn't matter if there were single or multiple infringements leading up to the scoring of said points (tries) as long as it was dotted down ok and we don't have to sit through interminable seconds or minutes of TMO procrastination then 'it's all good'.
kinda. I'm saying any stretch of phases is going to involve a heap of infringements that would be picked up by slow motion and endless replays. That's rugby. If you give carte blanche powers to a TMO to just go back and look at shit, nearly every try is going to get rubbed out.
IMO the game is so fluid it is actually about what you get away with.
Ah the old Antipodean 'beg for forgiveness, not ask for permission '
That's my mantra as a married man, yes.
Just seen your edit. yes. if you get away with it in real time, you get away with it.
Due to human nature, this will unfortunately favour the rule breakers over the play makers IMHO
all rugby players are rule breakers. all of them. some of them intentionally, some by accident, some out of desperation. But everyone, everyone breaks the rules of rugby during the game to gain an advantage.
What can we expect?
When William Webb Ellis picked up the ball and ran with it he was breaking the cardinal rule!
