Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?
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@African-Monkey said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
@Chester-Draws Yes I don't know why Tom Taylor didn't shift. Canterbury players are weird like that. Yes their culture is great which we hear about all the time but stuff like that is just plain stupid, similar to Dom Bird refusing to go to the Blues. They'd rather rot away on the bench or play club rugby instead of challenging themselves to benefit their careers and give the cop out excuse saying they'd rather learn off the guys starting ahead of them which gets them nowhere.
Bird made the ABs from Canterbury/the Crusaders and didn't advance after going to the Chiefs. Why the fuck would the dysfunctional Blues have been better for him?
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@Chester-Draws said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
@SammyC said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
@Chester-Draws said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
@shark said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
@Nepia said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
@rotated Of those Taylor was clearly in the frame and chose to leave, Sops is all about the Benjaminās, Blyeendraal was a bit over hyped and did nothing of note, Ihaia never found his groove, and Anscombe was an average 10 for the Blues and an ok 15 for Chiefs.
Yep spot on. Can't recall when TT left but presumably there was a queue for the 10 jumper (Carter, Barrett, Cruden, Sopoaga) and I'm pretty sure he wasn't playing a lot of 10 anyway, certainly not at Super Rugby level where Blackadder liked to use him as a thoroughly uninspiring fullback.
Tom Taylor refused to shift to the Blues, where he would have been a lock-in starter at #10. Instead he got shunted around the backline by Blackadder. Presumably he had his reasons for staying with Canterbury, but it made no sense to me.
Makes perfect sense to me. Look at what happened to Steven Brett
Nah, that's bullshit. Look what happened to Tom Taylor -- shovelled around the backline till he left the country, having never had a decent shot at making the ABs in his best positions. How'd that work out for him?
Stephen Brett's problem wasn't that he moved. It was that he wasn't as good as his boosters made out.
Maybe shifting might not have worked for Tom Taylor either. But he'll never know whether he could have made the big time with a decent run as a first choice.
Again, why would a team as dysfunctional as the Blues have been a better fit for Taylors' development than the Crusaders, albeit often out of position? This is the team that around the period you're referring to saw Nonu and Weepu come and go, Benji Marshall signed and tehe very ordinary Pat Lam replaced by the very, very ordinary JK as they consistently missed the play-offs. You reckon that would have helped his development and helped keep him in the NZ game?
Much better to remain at the Crusaders and take ones' chances wherever possible in the backline.
The issue was the queue for the ABs' 10 jersey.
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@Nepia said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
@shark He made the ABs at the Chiefs.
Bird having been a member of the Crusaders Wider Training Group in 2012 he was selected as a senior squad member for the 2013 Super Rugby season.[4][5] Bird was selected for the 2013 All Blacks wider training squad of 38 to train for the June test series against France and went on to make his international debut against Japan in November, starting for them in the 54-6 win before being replaced by Sam Whitelock.[6] Bird broke the record for tallest All Black in history on his debut, standing 1 cm taller than previous record holder, the now-retired Mark Cooksley. Bird made another appearance for the All Blacks one year later, starting against Scotland in a 24-16 win on the 2014 end-of-year tour after being called in as cover for Luke Romano.
Bird switched Super Rugby teams to the Chiefs for the 2016 Super Rugby season, forming a formidable locking partnership with All Blacks team-mate Brodie Retallick. Bird became a regular starter for the Chiefs, starting for them against the touring British and Irish Lions team in 2017, with the Chiefs losing to the Lions 34-6. Bird also went on to start in the knockout rounds but the Chiefs were eliminated from the competition in the semi-final against Bird's former team the Crusaders who went on to win the competition. After a solid Mitre 10 Cup campaign, Bird was re-selected for the All Blacks for the 2017 end-of-year tour afer three years' absence from international rugby. This came after Bird started against the All Blacks for the Barbarians in a 22-31 loss to the All Blacks. Bird started for the All Blacks against a French XV on 14 November and was not subbed off, with the All Blacks winning 28-23.
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@Nepia said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
@shark š¤Like I said, he was a Chief when he last made the ABs.
Well, yeah if you like. But he made the ABs from the Crusaders and only later played a lone midweek game as a 'Chief' after a strong NPC for Canterbury.
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@shark said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
@Nepia said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
@shark š¤Like I said, he was a Chief when he last made the ABs.
Well, yeah if you like. But he made the ABs from the Crusaders and only later played a lone midweek game as a 'Chief' after a strong NPC for Canterbury.
Well maybe next time you should specify - āmade the ABs, played a test, directly after the super Comp had finishedā. Well TBF that doesnāt work either as both the previous times he made the ABs was after the NPC.
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@shark said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
Again, why would a team as dysfunctional as the Blues have been a better fit for Taylors' development than the Crusaders, albeit often out of position? This is the team that around the period you're referring to saw Nonu and Weepu come and go, Benji Marshall signed and tehe very ordinary Pat Lam replaced by the very, very ordinary JK as they consistently missed the play-offs. You reckon that would have helped his development and helped keep him in the NZ game?
Lots of other players made the ABs from that dysfunctional Blues outfit. Indeed it can be easier to shine if the players around you are rubbish.
If Taylor had played for the Blues, and looked good, he would have massively advanced his cause.
In a similar situation Cruden left the Hurricanes for an apparently poor Chiefs outfit. It turns out he was a major reason they became quite functional. And he leap-frogged the player in front of him as a result.
Nothing ventured nothing gained. Yes, it would have been a risk. But the situation at the Crusaders wasn't working for him, so why stay?
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@Nepia said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
@shark said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
@Nepia said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
@shark š¤Like I said, he was a Chief when he last made the ABs.
Well, yeah if you like. But he made the ABs from the Crusaders and only later played a lone midweek game as a 'Chief' after a strong NPC for Canterbury.
Well maybe next time you should specify - āmade the ABs, played a test, directly after the super Comp had finishedā. Well TBF that doesnāt work either as both the previous times he made the ABs was after the NPC.
Sorry, you're right. His career went forward in leaps and bounds after going to the Chiefs.
He was already an AB. The one game (not even a test) he played after two seasons with the Chiefs came on the back of an NPC with Canterbury.
The argument is would he have been better served by playing for the Blues? Well clearly his career didn't advance after going to the Chiefs who were a significantly more competitive and better organised franchise than the Blues, so Chester Draws argument he should have gone to the Blues is badly flawed.
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@shark My pedantry only extends to the facts. š
But TBH Bird should have left the Crusaders a lot earlier, he lacked a hard edge to his game while down there (unsure why as other players had it) but refound it at the Chiefs - which carried on to the Canterbury NPC team ...
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@Stargazer said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
@Nepia He should have played for the Bay.
That goes without saying although the fact that he chose to play for Canterbury means heās half dead to me (Iām fine with the Chiefs half) š
But to be serious for a second yeah he probably would have got more game time and had a chance to push his case at levels outside of Chch. One of the few players that could be said about.
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So Bird makes the All Blacks out of Canterbury & the Crusaders in 2013 anditalicised text 2014, then switches to the Chiefs for regular starts and over two seasons plays just one more AB game which isn't even a test, but it's the Canterbury system which is to blame for his lack of development?
Brilliant.
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@shark said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
So Bird makes the All Blacks out of Canterbury & the Crusaders in 2013 anditalicised text 2014, then switches to the Chiefs for regular starts and over two seasons plays just one more AB game which isn't even a test, but it's the Canterbury system which is to blame for his lack of development?
Brilliant.
He had plenty of opportunity in Canterbury.
All the physical attributes, but just not hard enough to be a regular. As I recall he looked ok for the chiefs when playing alongside Retallick, but was otherwise pretty ordinary.
Craig Clarke was far more effective.
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@Nepia said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
@shark As @SammyC notes he was never a real success at Canterbury, a change earlier might have seen him reach his potential. Sheesh, I even stated that he was a failure where others clearly arenāt so as to save you the trouble of getting on your trusty stead.
[trolling] Brodie had to go to the Chiefs to get good
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@nzzp said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
@Nepia said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
@shark As @SammyC notes he was never a real success at Canterbury, a change earlier might have seen him reach his potential. Sheesh, I even stated that he was a failure where others clearly arenāt so as to save you the trouble of getting on your trusty stead.
[trolling] Brodie had to go to the Chiefs to get good
Nah man, he had to go to the Magpies to get good - he just maintained that at the Chiefs.
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@Nepia said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
@shark As @SammyC notes he was never a real success at Canterbury, a change earlier might have seen him reach his potential. Sheesh, I even stated that he was a failure where others clearly arenāt so as to save you the trouble of getting on your trusty stead.
Coming to Chch was his early change. Canterbury Colts 2010 and into the NZ U20s in 2011, Crusaders in 2012 and All Blacks 2013 and 2014. I don't think the Blues (or Chiefs) systems would or could have done any more for him at that early stage of his career.
If the rationale is he was too soft early in his rep career but hardened up at the Chiefs, it wasn't reflected in his national opportunities.
