The GOAT
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@Victor-Meldrew holy crap, that is some resume.
Also, @TeWaio I agree with your list -but we have to accept that we are super biased because rugby is a minority sport internationally. Soccer has the advantage of being played anywhere, with any number of people, with any ball, in damn near every situation. The base of the pyramid is massive. Ditto the Men's 100m -- everyone sprints in a race at some point; the talent becomes clear. Rugby, snooker, rowing, all need infrastructure outside just the person, so cut down the competition.
Yes, I know this is an argument against Bradman
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in my opinion of course
with regards to team sports, there isn't another position in any sport that is under more scrutiny than the NFL quarterback. In a squad of 50-odd guys, you are the man. You get the money. The entire winning and losing of the organisation rests on you.
Brady built the greatest dynasty the NFL has ever seen. Left it at 43, and immediately won with another team. Playing the prime position still at the very elite level.
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@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
in my opinion of course
with regards to team sports, there isn't another position in any sport that is under more scrutiny than the NFL quarterback. In a squad of 50-odd guys, you are the man. You get the money. The entire winning and losing of the organisation rests on you.
Brady built the greatest dynasty the NFL has ever seen. Left it at 43, and immediately won with another team. Playing the prime position still at the very elite level.
He is the main man and should get his dues. But football isn't basketball. Brady did his part but that defence was huge. This is not MJ single-handedly dominating big games
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@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
in my opinion of course
with regards to team sports, there isn't another position in any sport that is under more scrutiny than the NFL quarterback. In a squad of 50-odd guys, you are the man. You get the money. The entire winning and losing of the organisation rests on you.
Brady built the greatest dynasty the NFL has ever seen. Left it at 43, and immediately won with another team. Playing the prime position still at the very elite level.
He is the main man and should get his dues. But football isn't basketball. Brady did his part but that defence was huge. This is not MJ single-handedly dominating big games
that's a myth too. One great guy doesn't win you a ring, even if he is 20% of the team on the court. Jordan was amazing, but needed other guys to step up (pippen, Rodman, game winning shots by Kerr). There are a lot of NBA teams with one great guy who don't win because he needs help (see the Warriors this year). Look at a season and see how many games are won when one guy gets a shitload. What did Curry score the other day in a loss?
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Usain Fucking Bolt come on down. His first Olympic 100m win is still the thing that astonished me more than everything else I've ever seen in sport
yeah, this is probably where i would lean if i gave it a proper think as well.
Unbeaten at olympic level, across 100, 200, and the relay.
In the absolute glamour event of athletics, in fact probably the whole Games. And in a sport where anyone with 2 legs can compete.
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@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
in my opinion of course
with regards to team sports, there isn't another position in any sport that is under more scrutiny than the NFL quarterback. In a squad of 50-odd guys, you are the man. You get the money. The entire winning and losing of the organisation rests on you.
Brady built the greatest dynasty the NFL has ever seen. Left it at 43, and immediately won with another team. Playing the prime position still at the very elite level.
Sheer weight of titles across two teams makes the case for Brady pretty compelling against all-comers.
But two things about arguing for an NFL quarterback to be the GOAT just irk me, and I'm a Pats and Brady fan. The first is that Brady isn't exactly a stunning athlete. He's never been a great running QB and much of what a QB does is (over-simplification coming up to a degree) shuffle around behind a defensive line designed to offer him the most protection possible, and throw the ball. It's predominantly one skill, albeit done supremely well. The second thing - and I know there are good alternative arguments) is that he's dominant in his sport, but it's a sport played to the highest level in just one country (CFL, anyone??) and with very few players contributed from other countries. As opposed to the modern game of basketball for example. So unlike basketball the NFL isn't attracting the best athletes from around the world against which one must dominate. It's not far removed from nominating the best Kabbati player as the GOAT. Sure, he'd the best player in the best competition in the world in a particular sport, but if it's not global how can it be compared to the likes of soccer, tennis, golf and athletics?
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@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
in my opinion of course
with regards to team sports, there isn't another position in any sport that is under more scrutiny than the NFL quarterback. In a squad of 50-odd guys, you are the man. You get the money. The entire winning and losing of the organisation rests on you.
Brady built the greatest dynasty the NFL has ever seen. Left it at 43, and immediately won with another team. Playing the prime position still at the very elite level.
Sheer weight of titles across two teams makes the case for Brady pretty compelling against all-comers.
But two things about arguing for an NFL quarterback to be the GOAT just irk me, and I'm a Pats and Brady fan. The first is that Brady isn't exactly a stunning athlete. He's never been a great running QB and much of what a QB does is (over-simplification coming up to a degree) shuffle around behind a defensive line designed to offer him the most protection possible, and throw the ball. It's predominantly one skill, albeit done supremely well. The second thing - and I know there are good alternative arguments) is that he's dominant in his sport, but it's a sport played to the highest level in just one country (CFL, anyone??) and with very few players contributed from other countries. As opposed to the modern game of basketball for example. So unlike basketball the NFL isn't attracting the best athletes from around the world against which one must dominate. It's not far removed from nominating the best Kabbati player as the GOAT. Sure, he'd the best player in the best competition in the world in a particular sport, but if it's not global how can it be compared to the likes of soccer, tennis, golf and athletics?
This is a good thread! I'm nodding away at quite a few posts
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@shark i don't disagree with anything you said there, this is the most subjective argument in sports, and is best done over 10 schooners.
I'm not hanging my hat on Brady at all, but it's a pretty good argument.
The only thing with the "best athletes" thing is the number of elite level athletes from other sports that have given it a go and been waaaay off the mark. Yes it's a sharp learning curve, but athletically they are not there either. Not big enough, not fast enough, not powerful enough. Jarryd Hayne when he went was an elite NRL player who embarrassed guys with his running. He got there and looked like a park football player.
Again, i am not trying to say the NFL is the best athletes from anywhere, i am just saying that they are still probably the best athletes for their particular sport.
My GOAT definition, which will differ to others is, do you dominate your particular sport? And the reason it is so subjective is, in most cases the sport itself cannot decide who its best player is.
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Deion Sanders played NFL and MLB on the same weekend at times. In the pro era. That's fucking unreal.
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@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
@shark i don't disagree with anything you said there, this is the most subjective argument in sports, and is best done over 10 schooners.
I'm not hanging my hat on Brady at all, but it's a pretty good argument.
The only thing with the "best athletes" thing is the number of elite level athletes from other sports that have given it a go and been waaaay off the mark. Yes it's a sharp learning curve, but athletically they are not there either. Not big enough, not fast enough, not powerful enough. Jarryd Hayne when he went was an elite NRL player who embarrassed guys with his running. He got there and looked like a park football player.
Again, i am not trying to say the NFL is the best athletes from anywhere, i am just saying that they are still probably the best athletes for their particular sport.
My GOAT definition, which will differ to others is, do you dominate your particular sport? And the reason it is so subjective is, in most cases the sport itself cannot decide who its best player is.
This is a good thread, because everyone interprets it a bit differently. I think we should also talk about GOAT team and GOAT individual (then perhaps compare), but for me I like to think of whether I would have that person play / throw / kick / swing / pass for my life. Even that doesn't quite catch what I'm talking about, but it's the idea that on the absolute biggest stage, even when under huge pressure, they can find a way to win.
IMO, it has to be a sport that also has a huge mental aspect because otherwise (relatively) simple physical characteristics can get you over the line (especially with good sports science and nutrition). For that reason I can't go down the Bolt route, despite him perhaps being the best athlete ever. However, he's never had a Rumble in the Jungle or needed a Thrilla in Manilla, so even though he's an incredibly athletic individual, I can't see him as the GOATiest, because hig sport doesn't really allow people to draw upon the mental aspect in that same way that other sports do.
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@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
Deion Sanders played NFL and MLB on the same weekend at times. In the pro era. That's fucking unreal.
He and Bo Jackson are the last 2 great dual sportsman
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The NRL is becoming a bit like the NFL in that so much hinges on the two halves and more and more. The halves are being regarded as the most dominant players because they're so heavily involved in plays, they're the most influential and therefore most sought after players. They may not be the best athletes but more and more will be the most valuable player and the best will win titles. By default, the NRL GOAT argument will lean heavily towards the likes of Cronk, Johns, Langer, Lewis etc and other guys who are extremely dominant in their position but either don't see as much ball or haven't won as many titles will be forgotten. Greg Inglis could be a good example. And it's the same in the NFL. I don't know enough about the sport to know who, but surely there are multiple title-winners in other positions who have been just as dominant, are probably better athletes, but don't get the kudos a QB does.
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@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
Wayne Gretzky
Babe Ruth@KiwiMurph and @Godder as someone who has watched the NHL avidly since the late 70's, I can't agree with Gretzky.
I'd take Mario Lemieux over Gretzky every time and IMHO, he was the best player I've ever seen.
Lemieux was a much more complete player than Gretzky was and for most of his career, didn't have the same quality of players around him. Hell, Mario even dropped the gloves on a number of occasions.
And Mario's stats on a per game basis top Wayne's in most of the key areas:
Lemieux holds the record for the highest career points-per-game average (2.005) and the highest career goals-per-game average (.823).Add to that he overcame Hodgkin's lymphoma and played whilst undergoing radiation therapy for this is just mind blowing!
And yeah, I have some experiance with this being diagnosed with lymphoma 1 year ago.
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I don't know enough about the sport to know who, but surely there are multiple title-winners in other positions who have been just as dominant, are probably better athletes, but don't get the kudos a QB does.
Charles Haley comes to mind. A dominant linebacker/DE for the 49ers and Cowboys in the 1980s and 1990s. He won 5 titles, second to Brady.
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I don't know enough about the sport to know who, but surely there are multiple title-winners in other positions who have been just as dominant, are probably better athletes, but don't get the kudos a QB does.
Charles Haley comes to mind. A dominant linebacker/DE for the 49ers and Cowboys in the 1980s and 1990s. He won 5 titles, second to Brady.
To further emphasise the point, as a casual NFL fan, I've never heard of the bloke.
