Rank your AB RWC coaches
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@ACT-Crusader said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
@taniwharugby said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
For me it is irrelevant if he wins or loses.
I'd loathe if test rugby has come to this where we sacrifice 3 years of test rugby purely to win the RWC, I love that in rugby every game matters, or used to, we don't have 'friendlies'.
I don’t think there’s been any sacrifice per se. Just that we’ve struggled on several fronts.
Plus sometimes the best team of the previous three years (or even the previous year) doesn’t win the cup. Sometimes the draw and things just fall into place for the tourney.
He may go up a place or two if he and the team manage to pull off a miracle.
I guess it comes down to the value placed on a RWC trophy vs our match record over his entire tenure. I guess if you use Laurie as the example, his near miss in 1995 served to fluff his resume in spite of the poor years prior.
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@canefan and I agree with both of you. The damage he has done will take quite a while to repair.
His acceptance of mediocrity and poor performances and his mealy mouthed justifications really piss me off.
He has never seemed disturbed at what he has overseen and his interviews and pressers have made the colour beige look real exciting.
I’ve been watching the ABs since the 1970s and have never felt this detached until this turkey came along. -
on a more positive note I liked how Ryan accepted blame for the forwards' performance, accepted Ethan DeG had much still to learn, but also shouldered responsibility.
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@MN5 said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
Also I’m just re reading what I wrote and need to correct myself. Osborne was “inferior” but not by much. He was a terrific player. If Cullen never existed he would have had a long successful career.
Thank you, there can be a tendency on TSF to compare fine players to once in a lifetime legends.
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@canefan revisionism
His poor years included series wins over the Lions and the Boks and very tight losses to the Wallabies.
He had a series loss to the French and some dodgy one-off test results but he rebuilt the team during a period when our options in certain positions were very limited.
He did make some strange decisions and had his favourites but he sorted that out. It also has to be noted that the decision most often quoted was choosing Pene ahead of Zinny but those that say that conveniently forget that Pene was voted player of the year when he kept Zinny on the bench.
All of thgis without the backing of Eddie Tonks or the media who were in the Hart camp and with Hart constantly working to undermine him.
It would be interesting to see how Hart would have gone if he had got the gig in 92 which he would have if he'd not tried to white ant Wyllie.
You can't ignore the results in 96/7 but that was Mains team plus Cullen who Mains would have had if he had been supported. Hart also made some strange calls and when he had to rebuild the team it all fell apart catastrophically.
IMO Hart is on a par with Fozie. Two great years undermined by two poor ones and eight years of systematically working to undermine AB rugby for his own personal interests. Something Fozzie has never done.
He was a mouthy arrogant prick as half-back who thought he was way better than he actually was . Nothing changed. Talk to anyone who worked with him at Fletchers and he is universally despised. He's the anti-Wayne Smith.
Lochore
Henry
Hansen
Mains
Hart
Mitchell
WyllieBased on RWC results
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@dogmeat said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
@canefan revisionism
His poor years included series wins over the Lions and the Boks and very tight losses to the Wallabies.
He had a series loss to the French and some dodgy one-off test results but he rebuilt the team during a period when our options in certain positions were very limited.
He did make some strange decisions and had his favourites but he sorted that out. It also has to be noted that the decision most often quoted was choosing Pene ahead of Zinny but those that say that conveniently forget that Pene was voted player of the year when he kept Zinny on the bench.
All of thgis without the backing of Eddie Tonks or the media who were in the Hart camp and with Hart constantly working to undermine him.
It would be interesting to see how Hart would have gone if he had got the gig in 92 which he would have if he'd not tried to white ant Wyllie.
You can't ignore the results in 96/7 but that was Mains team plus Cullen who Mains would have had if he had been supported. Hart also made some strange calls and when he had to rebuild the team it all fell apart catastrophically.
IMO Hart is on a par with Fozie. Two great years undermined by two poor ones and eight years of systematically working to undermine AB rugby for his own personal interests. Something Fozzie has never done.
He was a mouthy arrogant prick as half-back who thought he was way better than he actually was . Nothing changed. Talk to anyone who worked with him at Fletchers and he is universally despised. He's the anti-Wayne Smith.
Lochore
Henry
Hansen
Mains
Hart
Mitchell
WyllieBased on RWC results
Thanks for reminding me of a few things mate. I didn't want to sound too harsh about Laurie, he was coach when I was at Otago Uni so obviously attained mythical level status. I remember him struggling to settle on some combinations, and that it all came together in 1995. I still can't believe how we failed to win that game, although having over half the team crook as did not help. And yes I would also give him credit for building the team that Hart profited off
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Yeah, Mains did a lot of experimenting to get that 1995 team together. Some good luck, some good management but it was a hell of a side by the time of the WC. And while Mehrtens arriving was largely the thing that fixed it, Mains still had to pick him and settle on a team and he did that.
No coach should really get credit for Cullen arriving. An absolute freak who it would have been madness not to pick. At fullback. Not at centre. That would be madness. -
@reprobate said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
Yeah, Mains did a lot of experimenting to get that 1995 team together. Some good luck, some good management but it was a hell of a side by the time of the WC. And while Mehrtens arriving was largely the thing that fixed it, Mains still had to pick him and settle on a team and he did that.
No coach should really get credit for Cullen arriving. An absolute freak who it would have been madness not to pick. At fullback. Not at centre. That would be madness.The prosecution against John Hart's RWC record rests your honour
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Hart should have replaced Lochore as the AB team was essentially his Auckland team. Another example of the politics within NZR. The counter to your argument about Tonks is that Meads and Sturgeon were instrumental in Mains getting the position ahead of Hart. It went both ways.
Back to Mains, his biggest failing was that he was a terrible selector. He and Thorburn picked some average Otago and NH players over those dominating in the NPC.
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@Bovidae in fairness....Otago were NPC runners up in 92, 93 and 95 with NH runners up in 94....so those teams were doing well, i think mains was the anti fozzie in the fact he picks competitions that played together rather than individuals
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Agree re Hart in 92
As for your comments about Mains as a selector I agree he was a better coach than selector, but I had a bit of time on my hands.
Here are the players who debuted under Mains
As you would expect it is dominated by the three leading sides of the era - Akl, Harbour, Otago. The 4th was Waikato but they didn't have as great a representation.
Canterbury started to come right at the end of his era.
I don't think there were that many out and out duds. The ones I have greyed are the ones IMO had a pretty average career but even then some extenuating factors.
Most were bench warmers. Stensness had a great third test against Lions (and replaced Little a Harbour man) Dowd G had the misfortune to sit behind Fitzy. Bachop best option at the time. Forster - like Pene one good year that justified selection. Mitchell chosen as a mid-week captain.
The real duds were Fromont, Lam, Howarth, Seymour, Turner, Cooksley.
Not that much of a Harbour Otago bias.
By contrast Hart thought he could do a Michael Jones again and picked some real stinkers / unknowns.
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@dogmeat said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
Agree re Hart in 92
As for your comments about Mains as a selector I agree he was a better coach than selector, but I had a bit of time on my hands.
Here are the players who debuted under Mains
As you would expect it is dominated by the three leading sides of the era - Akl, Harbour, Otago. The 4th was Waikato but they didn't have as great a representation.
Canterbury started to come right at the end of his era.
I don't think there were that many out and out duds. The ones I have greyed are the ones IMO had a pretty average career but even then some extenuating factors.
Most were bench warmers. Stensness had a great third test against Lions (and replaced Little a Harbour man) Dowd G had the misfortune to sit behind Fitzy. Bachop best option at the time. Forster - like Pene one good year that justified selection. Mitchell chosen as a mid-week captain.
The real duds were Fromont, Lam, Howarth, Seymour, Turner, Cooksley.
Not that much of a Harbour Otago bias.
By contrast Hart thought he could do a Michael Jones again and picked some real stinkers / unknowns.
Some okay players in there....
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@dogmeat said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
The real duds were Fromont, Lam, Howarth, Seymour, Turner, Cooksley.
TBF, they aren't even all that bad.
Lam and Seymour were tour call ups for injury, both were in bloody good domestic form at the time.
Howarth carved out a pretty good international career after his AB stint. And was another who was in bloody good domestic form when selected. He also was not from Otago or Harbour.
Turner was a form number 8 in NZ for a number of years, unsurprising he was tried even if the fat fuck failed.
Cooksley was selected by three different AB coaches, and like Fromont was a big guy they took a punt on as we were always searching for big locks (remember Tregaskis?)
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@Nepia Pretty sure Lam and Seymour both played in the Sydney loss and so were discarded but your comments really support my point.
I was surprised but Mains wasn't that bad a selector and pretty much selected on form. Debutants anyway. Haven't got the time to go back and look at every run on squad but the biggest criticism has always been Pene over Zinny and at the time Pene was playing the better footy.
He did try a number of different options particularly at 9 and 10 but the barrel was pretty empty and although they weren't great AB's you can argue he chose the best options until people like Mehrts came along.
He didn't take MJ to RWC but that was an availability issue not a form one.
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@dogmeat said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
He was a mouthy arrogant prick as half-back who thought he was way better than he actually was .
This part is unfair, mouthy arrogant prick is in the half-back job description!
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Anyway, Main's worst selection was Mitchell because it gave him the clout to play overseas and then get coaching jobs, then come back to NZ and waltz into the AB job on the back of one middling Super campaign, which almost ruining rugby as a pastime for me.
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@dogmeat The selection that really pissed me off at the time was dropping Gatland for Dowd. Waikato had a dominant scrum/pack at the time and Gatland was a big part of that in 1992/93.
Forster was a marginal selection for me too.
@Nepia If you asked us Mooloo supporters in 1993 which of the Waikato loose forward trio was most deserving of AB selection Mitchell would have been third on that list.
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@Bovidae said in Rank your AB RWC coaches:
@dogmeat The selection that really pissed me off at the time was dropping Gatland for Dowd. Waikato had a dominant scrum/pack at the time and Gatland was a big part of that in 1992/93.
Forster was a marginal selection for me too.
@Nepia If you asked us Mooloo supporters in 1993 which of the Waikato loose forward trio was most deserving of AB selection Mitchell would have been third on that list.
Ah, it's all really about Monkley being overlooked.
Who was the blindside in the early 90s? Jerram?Obviously at that time I thought both Dowd and Gatland shouldn't have been there - it should have been Hewitt.
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