Use of the TMO
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I feel like the last few weeks have been a tipping point in regards to use of the TMO.
It's getting ridiculous, and adding 15 minutes+ to the run time of a game with a couple of referee conferences each game on marginal tackles, challenges etc.
Is it just me? I just think the desperation to get the call right has resulted in this overly bureaucratic mess which kills the flow of the game completely.
I've gone full retard in an article here if anyone is interested, but it's just an expansion of the above.
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Do you watch much league? They send 99% of tries to the TMO now even if it's clear to every fool in the ground that it's atry. Although one of your commentors is holding it up as an example to follow because they di it a wee bit quicker.
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Yeah, I agree. They spend way too much time searching for foul play these days. In 99% of cases it doesn't really impact anything, and they could just do it after the match and then administer appropriate sanctions. Folau's no-try was farcical - I don't know why they are allowed to go back as many phases as they want if it is "foul play". It should be 2 phases max for any infringement. If the ref missed it, tough shit, deal with it after the match.
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I think they should check everything. The problem is the lack of refs to watch every player. They could stop at every tackle or ruck and check for possible infringements. If there aren't any, start again. And add some helmets to reduce head injuries.
It's bad enough tries aren't being awarded because there's a single frame which suggests someone no longer has an iron grip on the ball.
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We did this to ourselves. And by us, i mean you, because AB fans don't lose. Endless, and i mean, endless social media; sports forum; phone in; fucking smoke signal whinge fests after every single game looking to absolve everything and everyone for any loss, because the ref fucked us.
We are not shit at rugby, we were fucked by the ref. How could the ref miss that minuscule knock on that we only found in super-slow-mo? Isn't he professional? It's a fucking conspiracy against my team/in favour of that team.
Rugby fans are obsessed by referees. Look at any match thread. Who is the ref? Oh shit, really? he hates us. He loves them. He hates breakdowns. He won't let us scrum. He once missed a knock on against my team 8 years ago that i have decided cost us the game. Fuck that guy. He's a cheat. French refs are shit. Aussie refs are shit. Bok refs are shit. English/Irish/Welsh refs are too slow to keep up with the game.
So world rugby listened, and gave you this clusterfuck. Where we have guys who aren't good enough to be refs watching TV and whispering shit in the refs ear "you missed a very marginal thing back there, we better check it. if we don't we will get accused of cheating" so back we go. And then we better find a penalty, or this will look like a farce.
Add in endless replays on big screens to get howls of outrage from pissed up idiots in the stands, and it gets infinitely worse.
We bought this on ourselves. And this toothpaste isn't going back in the tube. The day we got rid of it, someone is going to knock on before scoring against Ireland, no one is going to see it until after it's awarded, and the internet is going to explode. World Rugby will never allow that to happen.
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But yea, i fucking hate it. I hate how it grinds the game to a halt.
And the game is sloooow. Set piece is just as bad. The little committee meetings before lineout time. Every scrum reset!! Jesus, you get to "crouch" someone isn't 100% happy, so everyone stands up. The props disengage and walk 5m away. And then we start again. Fuck off!!
The double whammy of all of this is, with all the delays and stoppages, players get so much rest during the game that, combined with 7 subs, the game isn't being opened up by fatigue.
Fuck knows how you come up with a workable solution to change it though.
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@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
Fuck knows how you come up with a workable solution to change it though.
Award free kicks for fucking around. Escalate to penalties.
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@antipodean said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
Fuck knows how you come up with a workable solution to change it though.
Award free kicks for fucking around. Escalate to penalties.
you're just trying to get rid of scrummaging!! you just want us to play rugby league!! waaaah!
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@nepia said in Use of the TMO:
Do you watch much league? They send 99% of tries to the TMO now even if it's clear to every fool in the ground that it's atry. Although one of your commentors is holding it up as an example to follow because they di it a wee bit quicker.
They do, but there are two key differences for mine- it's much quicker (often just one replay and then a decision) and the bunker deliberations are piped over the stadium loudspeaker so the crowd know what's happening.
In rugby, we see replay after replay and if you're at the ground it's complete silence. When a decision is made you have no idea why.
I'm not against TMO use on tryscoring decisions, though. It's the other stuff I'm annoyed about.
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@barbarian they've really sped that bunker stuff up too. And it's only tries, and it's only try scoring movements.
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@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@antipodean said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
Fuck knows how you come up with a workable solution to change it though.
Award free kicks for fucking around. Escalate to penalties.
you're just trying to get rid of scrummaging!! you just want us to play rugby league!! waaaah!
The opposite. If you won't scrummage, you'll lose players to the bin.
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@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
Fuck knows how you come up with a workable solution to change it though.
It's the speed that gets me.
Take the Folau no-try. It took five minutes to resolve. I don't think you'd see nearly as much anger if the TMO looked at it, stopped the game and said 'it's a penalty to Ireland for a tackle without the ball' and that was that.
Instead, we get the 'hey I THINK I've seen something' and the game grinds to a halt while we call in the touchies, see 15 replays and have a long discussion about what it all means.
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@antipodean said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@antipodean said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
Fuck knows how you come up with a workable solution to change it though.
Award free kicks for fucking around. Escalate to penalties.
you're just trying to get rid of scrummaging!! you just want us to play rugby league!! waaaah!
The opposite. If you won't scrummage, you'll lose players to the bin.
you think that's how it will be interpreted? Teams with large ass props who want to use their scrum to draw penalties/gain dominance are going to see it as depowering the scrum to make it faster.
Just to note, in case it's not clear, i absolutely agree with this, and would love to see a shot clock implemented on all set piece. I can already predict the resistance from certain quarters though
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@barbarian @mariner4life It annoys me more in league because in general they're just straightforward decisions and that's why the Bunker is able to rule on them so quickly. And I always fucking feel like KFC after each decision!
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@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
you think that's how it will be interpreted? Teams with large ass props who want to use their scrum to draw penalties/gain dominance are going to see it as depowering the scrum to make it faster.
Then they're looking at it wrongly. If you possess the stronger scrum, you want less wait, so the other team can't recover. The more they tire, the more mistakes, the more scrums you get to have...
I'd love a 'shot clock implemented on all set piece'.
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@barbarian said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
Fuck knows how you come up with a workable solution to change it though.
It's the speed that gets me.
Take the Folau no-try. It took five minutes to resolve. I don't think you'd see nearly as much anger if the TMO looked at it, stopped the game and said 'it's a penalty to Ireland for a tackle without the ball' and that was that.
Instead, we get the 'hey I THINK I've seen something' and the game grinds to a halt while we call in the touchies, see 15 replays and have a long discussion about what it all means.
my problem with that is relevance? How and why was that required? it was a mile before the try, happened in front of the ref, and was waved play on. If by taking out that player, Aus gained the advantage taht resulted in the try, then okay. But we went back so far, for what? a penalty? whoop de ducking doo. Did Coleman shoulder charge him in the had and knock him on? no. so fuck off.
And getting the on-field ref to be the sole judge by watching the big screen seems absolutely retarded.
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@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
my problem with that is relevance? How and why was that required?
And that's the kicker. I understand your arguments above - we are the problem. We are the reason we have this system in the first place.
But now we're solving things that aren't even problems. If the TMO didn't intervene on that, would there have been outrage? Maybe from the most one-eyed Irish fans, but I don't think the vast majority would bat an eyelid.
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One of the better rugby articles I've read in recent times. Agree with everything you said
Would love it if stuff or the herald published something like this.
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@barbarian said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
my problem with that is relevance? How and why was that required?
And that's the kicker. I understand your arguments above - we are the problem. We are the reason we have this system in the first place.
But now we're solving things that aren't even problems. If the TMO didn't intervene on that, would there have been outrage? Maybe from the most one-eyed Irish fans, but I don't think the vast majority would bat an eyelid.
gifs. stills. red circles. red arrows.
some fuck head in a studio saying "look, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but i have to say it, Australia were refereed differently today. That's a penalty to Ireland all day, where was the call? It's disgraceful really"
And the masses will swallow it and attack.
I would limit it to tries only. And the last phase only. And the TMO makes the decision, while looking at what the ref specifically asks them to. Just adopt the league position.
Missed "foul play" is for the judiciary
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@sammyc Thanks!
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Oh my favourite subject! The widening of the TMO has failed, for all the reasons above.
I think the only solution that people will accept is an appeal system. Give each team a fixed number and let them tell the ref what they want checked. TMO agrees and they keep the appeal. TMO disagrees, you lose a sub (no subs left? No appeals).
The on field ref can refer himself but only for tries and only in the last phase (with the conceding team being given an option to request a specific play checked if they choose to use a review at the same time as the ref refers so they can't watch the replay and request a review).
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I think we can safely bypass this entire process and have the judicial commissioner and two ex-players on the horn instead.
Ref: "So after stepping through the process and applicable laws, I'm thinking red card?"
Judiciary: "Nah mate"
Ref: "So yellow then?"
Judiciary: "Probs a penalty against black for falling on his head eh?" -
@barbarian said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
my problem with that is relevance? How and why was that required?
And that's the kicker. I understand your arguments above - we are the problem. We are the reason we have this system in the first place.
But now we're solving things that aren't even problems. If the TMO didn't intervene on that, would there have been outrage? Maybe from the most one-eyed Irish fans, but I don't think the vast majority would bat an eyelid.
Well, actually, that's a very very large sub-population.
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The biggest 'tragedy' is that the NRL 'abandoned' their in-goal touch judges after just one year to go with the new-fangled TMO. Where League went, union belatedly went (but skipped the in-goal touchies entirely).
We just wanted to know about groundings .......
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I agree it has got a bit silly.
What annoys me most is the cryptic way the ref and tmo talk to each other. The whole "can you give me a reason not to not award a try". Then a cryptic answer back from the tmo etc. It just makes them sound incompetent when both are trying to avoid being the one that makes the call.
Just tell him what you want checked and whether there was an advantage and the tmo checks it and makes the call.I would also limit the foul play check to ones referred by the on field officials and encourage them to say "nothing in it, play on" if it is minor. So often we see a penalty given just because they have stopped to check.
Can't really see WR back tracking on any of this stuff though.
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Good article fella.
I'd he happy to go to an NFL style tmo, where the ref makes a call and it gets overturned only if it is clear and obvious.
Also, the game is almost unrefereeable. So many conflicting laws, and so many players pushing the line all the time
Spectators at the ground get treated like rubbish, and that could be done better. Big screen, or an announcement on the PA.
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Just for the in-goal is all I'm interested in.
But ...
Because they've let the forward pass rule gets so 'flat', the margin of error is ridiculous and a ref can't pick it up with his naked eye. (but TMOs can't rule consistently on forward passes either .... and might have to use the 'best' possible camera angle which is at 45 degrees for passes near the try line )
Because they've let obstruction become semi-legal if it isn't material, a ref is seeing countless bodies moving in front of the ball, with some slightly impeding and others not, and can't tell anymore.
My solution would require a lot of clocks to be turned back, and I obviously don't see any of that happening.
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Maybe the two ref system is the solution to reducing the influence of the tmo. One ref to watch the offside line and then off the ball stuff. The other to watch the breakdown and tackles. Linesmen to do whatever they do now (which seems to be not much)
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@pukunui said in Use of the TMO:
Maybe the two ref system is the solution to reducing the influence of the tmo. One ref to watch the offside line and then off the ball stuff. The other to watch the breakdown and tackles. Linesmen to do whatever they do now (which seems to be not much)
The problem with that is the blindside assistant is supposed to watch the breakdown while the openside helps with offside.
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@pukunui said in Use of the TMO:
Maybe the two ref system is the solution to reducing the influence of the tmo. One ref to watch the offside line and then off the ball stuff. The other to watch the breakdown and tackles. Linesmen to do whatever they do now (which seems to be not much)
not sure it's a success in the NRL, which is a much easier game to referee. Imagine as a player dealing with two different "feels" for the game
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Lots of contradiction in responses.
Rugby Union has and will always sit somewhere between American Football and Basketball in terms of continuity and flow.
That's what makes it Rugby Union.
Some matches the needle is slowed towards American Football by TMO involvement, some matches it isn't.
But the TMO process is here, and it's here to stay thankfully.
If we want multiple phase, flowing rugby then the TMO process has to start where the first transgression is thought to have happened. If that's 15 phases back then so be it. We've just enjoyed a 15 phase high speed chess match which may or may not have resulted in a try.
Arbitrarily tracking back 1, 2 or X phases is nonsensical IMHO.
Is it perfect? Far from it.
Is it better? For me, yes.
There are a number of things which can change to make the game faster, but when the TMO is employed it should always be a measured, thoughtful process.
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@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
If we want multiple phase, flowing rugby then the TMO process has to start where the first transgression is thought to have happened. If that's 15 phases back then so be it. We've just enjoyed a 15 phase high speed chess match which may or may not have resulted in a try
what. the. fuck.
and what, precisely, should we be looking at 15 phases back michael? tiny knock ons? suspect side entry? at some point in that 15 phases i can guarantee someone transgressed. Why do you hate points michael? is it because you are Welsh and you don't really know what they are?
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@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
If we want multiple phase, flowing rugby then the TMO process has to start where the first transgression is thought to have happened. If that's 15 phases back then so be it. We've just enjoyed a 15 phase high speed chess match which may or may not have resulted in a try
what. the. fuck.
and what, precisely, should we be looking at 15 phases back michael? tiny knock ons? suspect side entry? at some point in that 15 phases i can guarantee someone transgressed. Why do you hate points michael? is it because you are Welsh and you don't really know what they are?
So if I've read your reply correctly, rugby union is all about scoring points (tries) and it doesn't matter if there were single or multiple infringements leading up to the scoring of said points (tries) as long as it was dotted down ok and we don't have to sit through interminable seconds or minutes of TMO procrastination then 'it's all good'.
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@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
If we want multiple phase, flowing rugby then the TMO process has to start where the first transgression is thought to have happened. If that's 15 phases back then so be it. We've just enjoyed a 15 phase high speed chess match which may or may not have resulted in a try
what. the. fuck.
and what, precisely, should we be looking at 15 phases back michael? tiny knock ons? suspect side entry? at some point in that 15 phases i can guarantee someone transgressed. Why do you hate points michael? is it because you are Welsh and you don't really know what they are?
So if I've read your reply correctly, rugby union is all about scoring points (tries) and it doesn't matter if there were single or multiple infringements leading up to the scoring of said points (tries) as long as it was dotted down ok and we don't have to sit through interminable seconds or minutes of TMO procrastination then 'it's all good'.
kinda. I'm saying any stretch of phases is going to involve a heap of infringements that would be picked up by slow motion and endless replays. That's rugby. If you give carte blanche powers to a TMO to just go back and look at shit, nearly every try is going to get rubbed out.
IMO the game is so fluid it is actually about what you get away with.
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@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
If we want multiple phase, flowing rugby then the TMO process has to start where the first transgression is thought to have happened. If that's 15 phases back then so be it. We've just enjoyed a 15 phase high speed chess match which may or may not have resulted in a try
what. the. fuck.
and what, precisely, should we be looking at 15 phases back michael? tiny knock ons? suspect side entry? at some point in that 15 phases i can guarantee someone transgressed. Why do you hate points michael? is it because you are Welsh and you don't really know what they are?
So if I've read your reply correctly, rugby union is all about scoring points (tries) and it doesn't matter if there were single or multiple infringements leading up to the scoring of said points (tries) as long as it was dotted down ok and we don't have to sit through interminable seconds or minutes of TMO procrastination then 'it's all good'.
kinda. I'm saying any stretch of phases is going to involve a heap of infringements that would be picked up by slow motion and endless replays. That's rugby. If you give carte blanche powers to a TMO to just go back and look at shit, nearly every try is going to get rubbed out.
IMO the game is so fluid it is actually about what you get away with.
Ah the old Antipodean 'beg for forgiveness, not ask for permission '
So shut infringements down at source, and if they're missed c'est la vie
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@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
If we want multiple phase, flowing rugby then the TMO process has to start where the first transgression is thought to have happened. If that's 15 phases back then so be it. We've just enjoyed a 15 phase high speed chess match which may or may not have resulted in a try
what. the. fuck.
and what, precisely, should we be looking at 15 phases back michael? tiny knock ons? suspect side entry? at some point in that 15 phases i can guarantee someone transgressed. Why do you hate points michael? is it because you are Welsh and you don't really know what they are?
So if I've read your reply correctly, rugby union is all about scoring points (tries) and it doesn't matter if there were single or multiple infringements leading up to the scoring of said points (tries) as long as it was dotted down ok and we don't have to sit through interminable seconds or minutes of TMO procrastination then 'it's all good'.
kinda. I'm saying any stretch of phases is going to involve a heap of infringements that would be picked up by slow motion and endless replays. That's rugby. If you give carte blanche powers to a TMO to just go back and look at shit, nearly every try is going to get rubbed out.
IMO the game is so fluid it is actually about what you get away with.
Ah the old Antipodean 'beg for forgiveness, not ask for permission '
That's my mantra as a married man, yes.
Just seen your edit. yes. if you get away with it in real time, you get away with it.
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@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
If we want multiple phase, flowing rugby then the TMO process has to start where the first transgression is thought to have happened. If that's 15 phases back then so be it. We've just enjoyed a 15 phase high speed chess match which may or may not have resulted in a try
what. the. fuck.
and what, precisely, should we be looking at 15 phases back michael? tiny knock ons? suspect side entry? at some point in that 15 phases i can guarantee someone transgressed. Why do you hate points michael? is it because you are Welsh and you don't really know what they are?
So if I've read your reply correctly, rugby union is all about scoring points (tries) and it doesn't matter if there were single or multiple infringements leading up to the scoring of said points (tries) as long as it was dotted down ok and we don't have to sit through interminable seconds or minutes of TMO procrastination then 'it's all good'.
kinda. I'm saying any stretch of phases is going to involve a heap of infringements that would be picked up by slow motion and endless replays. That's rugby. If you give carte blanche powers to a TMO to just go back and look at shit, nearly every try is going to get rubbed out.
IMO the game is so fluid it is actually about what you get away with.
Ah the old Antipodean 'beg for forgiveness, not ask for permission '
That's my mantra as a married man, yes.
Just seen your edit. yes. if you get away with it in real time, you get away with it.
Due to human nature, this will unfortunately favour the rule breakers over the play makers IMHO
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@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
If we want multiple phase, flowing rugby then the TMO process has to start where the first transgression is thought to have happened. If that's 15 phases back then so be it. We've just enjoyed a 15 phase high speed chess match which may or may not have resulted in a try
what. the. fuck.
and what, precisely, should we be looking at 15 phases back michael? tiny knock ons? suspect side entry? at some point in that 15 phases i can guarantee someone transgressed. Why do you hate points michael? is it because you are Welsh and you don't really know what they are?
So if I've read your reply correctly, rugby union is all about scoring points (tries) and it doesn't matter if there were single or multiple infringements leading up to the scoring of said points (tries) as long as it was dotted down ok and we don't have to sit through interminable seconds or minutes of TMO procrastination then 'it's all good'.
kinda. I'm saying any stretch of phases is going to involve a heap of infringements that would be picked up by slow motion and endless replays. That's rugby. If you give carte blanche powers to a TMO to just go back and look at shit, nearly every try is going to get rubbed out.
IMO the game is so fluid it is actually about what you get away with.
Ah the old Antipodean 'beg for forgiveness, not ask for permission '
That's my mantra as a married man, yes.
Just seen your edit. yes. if you get away with it in real time, you get away with it.
Due to human nature, this will unfortunately favour the rule breakers over the play makers IMHO
all rugby players are rule breakers. all of them. some of them intentionally, some by accident, some out of desperation. But everyone, everyone breaks the rules of rugby during the game to gain an advantage.
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@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
If we want multiple phase, flowing rugby then the TMO process has to start where the first transgression is thought to have happened. If that's 15 phases back then so be it. We've just enjoyed a 15 phase high speed chess match which may or may not have resulted in a try
what. the. fuck.
and what, precisely, should we be looking at 15 phases back michael? tiny knock ons? suspect side entry? at some point in that 15 phases i can guarantee someone transgressed. Why do you hate points michael? is it because you are Welsh and you don't really know what they are?
So if I've read your reply correctly, rugby union is all about scoring points (tries) and it doesn't matter if there were single or multiple infringements leading up to the scoring of said points (tries) as long as it was dotted down ok and we don't have to sit through interminable seconds or minutes of TMO procrastination then 'it's all good'.
kinda. I'm saying any stretch of phases is going to involve a heap of infringements that would be picked up by slow motion and endless replays. That's rugby. If you give carte blanche powers to a TMO to just go back and look at shit, nearly every try is going to get rubbed out.
IMO the game is so fluid it is actually about what you get away with.
Ah the old Antipodean 'beg for forgiveness, not ask for permission '
That's my mantra as a married man, yes.
Just seen your edit. yes. if you get away with it in real time, you get away with it.
Due to human nature, this will unfortunately favour the rule breakers over the play makers IMHO
all rugby players are rule breakers. all of them. some of them intentionally, some by accident, some out of desperation. But everyone, everyone breaks the rules of rugby during the game to gain an advantage.
It's that first group of bastards which worries me.
Next stop, wendyball.
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@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@mikethesnow said in Use of the TMO:
If we want multiple phase, flowing rugby then the TMO process has to start where the first transgression is thought to have happened. If that's 15 phases back then so be it. We've just enjoyed a 15 phase high speed chess match which may or may not have resulted in a try
what. the. fuck.
and what, precisely, should we be looking at 15 phases back michael? tiny knock ons? suspect side entry? at some point in that 15 phases i can guarantee someone transgressed. Why do you hate points michael? is it because you are Welsh and you don't really know what they are?
So if I've read your reply correctly, rugby union is all about scoring points (tries) and it doesn't matter if there were single or multiple infringements leading up to the scoring of said points (tries) as long as it was dotted down ok and we don't have to sit through interminable seconds or minutes of TMO procrastination then 'it's all good'.
kinda. I'm saying any stretch of phases is going to involve a heap of infringements that would be picked up by slow motion and endless replays. That's rugby. If you give carte blanche powers to a TMO to just go back and look at shit, nearly every try is going to get rubbed out.
IMO the game is so fluid it is actually about what you get away with.
Ah the old Antipodean 'beg for forgiveness, not ask for permission '
That's my mantra as a married man, yes.
Just seen your edit. yes. if you get away with it in real time, you get away with it.
Due to human nature, this will unfortunately favour the rule breakers over the play makers IMHO
all rugby players are rule breakers. all of them. some of them intentionally, some by accident, some out of desperation. But everyone, everyone breaks the rules of rugby during the game to gain an advantage.
What can we expect?
When William Webb Ellis picked up the ball and ran with it he was breaking the cardinal rule!
