Hurricanes 2020
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@Stargazer If players are going to be switching teams all the time then why not introduce trades. Wouldn’t that prevent one team being too stacked in one area. Atm having Havili, Reece, Jordan, Barrett, Goodhue, Bridge & Ennor in one team seems fairly silly and surely one player isn’t going to be happy with lack of game time when they are on the cusp of being an All Black.
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Not sure how trades would work given almost all the player moves happen when players end their contracts? The fact that all the franchises have the same amount of money to spend on players should mean that they are all relatively as strong as each other over time. The issue is that some teams are better at identifying talent and then value adding. This comes down to coaching, administration and culture. Also success tends to beget success and young players are prepared to play for less money if they think their careers will be advanced.
I'm not sure that it's possible to make the cultures of different organisations more equal through policies. The fact that the Crusaders spend roughly the same amount on players as the other NZ teams, yet are playing for their 10th title, suggests that culture plays a huge role in the success of an organisation.
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@Cantab79 said in Hurricanes 2020:
Not sure how trades would work given almost all the player moves happen when players end their contracts? The fact that all the franchises have the same amount of money to spend on players should mean that they are all relatively as strong as each other over time. The issue is that some teams are better at identifying talent and then value adding. This comes down to coaching, administration and culture. Also success tends to beget success and young players are prepared to play for less money if they think their careers will be advanced.
I'm not sure that it's possible to make the cultures of different organisations more equal through policies. The fact that the Crusaders spend roughly the same amount on players as the other NZ teams, yet are playing for their 10th title, suggests that culture plays a huge role in the success of an organisation.
Trades generally lead to a rich get richer scenario because the successful teams end up with more resources to attract talent than the weaker teams.
To balance a league you need a salary cap that's low enough that you can't afford to you hold on to all the talent. That brings its own problems though and is more likely to increase the number of players going overseas.
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@Canes4life said in Hurricanes 2020:
@Stargazer i’m not just talking about the Canes. I’m pointing out the fact that there is a massive imbalance in this competition and it’s becoming far too predictable. I’m not sure about you but I’d rather watch a Highlanders vs Crusaders game without a predictable outcome.
NZ rugby need to do something about this. I never even bothered watching the final as the outcome was so predictable, Crusaders always winning will help destroy super rugby. If NZ rugby spread around the talent rather than stacking it all in one team = a much more exciting competition. Stack it all in one team as is currently being done and I don't have much hope for super rugby
There must be a financial structure so its impossible for one team to stack it with ABs. Maybe the NZRU believe NZ rugby can do OK without super rugby (or a 2nd rate competition) and the ABs mostly selected from overseas Europe and Japan teams, Because that's were its heading
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@Chris said in Hurricanes 2020:
@Winger Players are being picked for the AB’s after they are selected and play for the Crusaders not the other way around
So maybe recruitment and the environment that turns these players into AB’s needs to be replicated at other franchisesTo an extent yes, but also the key fact that recruitment to the Crusaders has no boundaries in place. Good players want to jump on the bandwagon.
This has been one of the key factors in the continual success of the Saders and decline of the Blues.
Also one of the reasons why most pro competitions have draft systems and caps. As @Winger points out you can kill the goose that lays the golden egg if competitions lack competition.
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@Crucial sure that is a point in looking at the overall product of SR
The same happened in the 90s with Auckland we got smashed every year by the Aucks even the first year of SR
Maybe the Crusaders through losing a lot of talent for 2020 may change things
Whitelock,Franks,Crotty,Read,Taufua Todd,Funnell,Bateman is a big loss -
@Crucial said in Hurricanes 2020:
@Chris said in Hurricanes 2020:
@Winger Players are being picked for the AB’s after they are selected and play for the Crusaders not the other way around
So maybe recruitment and the environment that turns these players into AB’s needs to be replicated at other franchisesTo an extent yes, but also the key fact that recruitment to the Crusaders has no boundaries in place. Good players want to jump on the bandwagon.
This has been one of the key factors in the continual success of the Saders and decline of the Blues.
Also one of the reasons why most pro competitions have draft systems and caps. As @Winger points out you can kill the goose that lays the golden egg if competitions lack competition.
Crusaders are ahead of the curve Other NZ franchises need to catch up
Blues are a basket case & Highlanders are fast on their way to becoming the bottom feeders of NZ rugby once again
So it down to Hurricanes and Chiefs to raise standards and be competitive
AUS teams are in a mess minus the Brumbies and they're losing their 4 best players as well
SA sides can't keep anyone for long enough
So I'd state looking at the next 3-5 years the Crusaders and Jaguares are in the healthiest state in terms of player quality, depth, experience and coaching acumen
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@Jaguares4real said in Hurricanes 2020:
@Crucial said in Hurricanes 2020:
@Chris said in Hurricanes 2020:
@Winger Players are being picked for the AB’s after they are selected and play for the Crusaders not the other way around
So maybe recruitment and the environment that turns these players into AB’s needs to be replicated at other franchisesTo an extent yes, but also the key fact that recruitment to the Crusaders has no boundaries in place. Good players want to jump on the bandwagon.
This has been one of the key factors in the continual success of the Saders and decline of the Blues.
Also one of the reasons why most pro competitions have draft systems and caps. As @Winger points out you can kill the goose that lays the golden egg if competitions lack competition.
Crusaders are ahead of the curve Other NZ franchises need to catch up
Blues are a basket case & Highlanders are fast on their way to becoming the bottom feeders of NZ rugby once again
So it down to Hurricanes and Chiefs to raise standards and be competitive
AUS teams are in a mess minus the Brumbies and they're losing their 4 best players as well
SA sides can't keep anyone for long enough
So I'd state looking at the next 3-5 years the Crusaders and Jaguares are in the healthiest state in terms of player quality, depth, experience and coaching acumen
Whoosh!
In the race to blow more smoke up the Jag's arses you have completely missed the point about the system of accumulation/distribution of talent in NZ leads to haves and have nots.
@Chris is correct. It is a question for the whole of the comp but NZ could also put their own systems if they want (or feel the need) to make the NZ franchises more even. It is a hard one as you do want to reward the franchises that develop good systems but also not have other franchises with good coaches and systems but not the talent.
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What you consider blowing smoke I consider respect for pathways and player development + utilisation
Crusaders and Jaguares are likeliest teams to contend for Super Rugby titles in next 3-5 years Followed by Chiefs and Hurricanes
Other NZ sides need to improve Not to wait on Crusaders to drop standards
I mean who really wants to join the Blues.......
Only been a
show for over a decade nowWho wants to join the Landers - players wanting to leave Auckland
Until these clubs find a semblance of stability with player turnover & coaching they'll likely remain/enroute to being irrelevant in Super Rugby
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@Jaguares4real said in Hurricanes 2020:
What you consider blowing smoke I consider respect for pathways and player development + utilisation
Crusaders and Jaguares are likeliest teams to contend for Super Rugby titles in next 3-5 years Followed by Chiefs and Hurricanes
Other NZ sides need to improve Not to wait on Crusaders to drop standards
I mean who really wants to join the Blues.......
Only been a
show for over a decade nowWho wants to join the Landers - players wanting to leave Auckland
Until these clubs find a semblance of stability with player turnover & coaching they'll likely remain/enroute to being irrelevant in Super Rugby
Whoosh! Again.
Let's see how the Argies would cope with numerous SR teams. I think you might find they would have the same issues around talent distribution. (which is the discussion)
A big contributing factor to some teams slumping is the (almost) uncontrolled player movement.
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@Jaguares4real
So it down to Hurricanes and Chiefs to raise standards and be competitive
No its not possible now. Its now up to the NZRU to finally act and set up a financial (or non financial) structure so its impossible for one team to be stacked with ABs. At present the opposite is occurring. ABs earn more money and non AB who are good leave for obvious reasons. Or choose the Crusaders if wanted by them as anyone looks better playing in a strong team. For example J Barrett will look (much) better playing for a Crusader team stacked with ABs
And any NZ team that can attract all the best players as is happening now will almost always win unless they have a crap coach. It should have been addressed a long time ago. NZ always winning is bad enough for super rugby but one NZ team always winning is far worse
At least Aust and SA has done sometime to reduce their team numbers (Aust can really only support three teams though). But a lot more needs to be done. Starting with NZ ensuring a more even distribution of players. Maybe allowing a small number of NZ players to play overseas and still be eligible for the ABs. Finals must be rotated by country etc. But NZ needs to act first.
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Wait a minute. Exactly who are all these ABs that the Crusaders have been luring away from other teams? What utter rubbish. Teams should be encouraged to develop long term success and part of that is holding onto the talent you have developed.
Forcing players to move completely misses the fact that they are free to move elsewhere at the end of their contracts. More often than not they stay with the successful team where they are happy. Forcing them out is going to push more players overseas.Oh and BBBR, Cane, TJP, BB, Ardie, Coles, Aaron Smith, Ben Smith, Ioane, Dmac, ALB and a shit load of other good players say the idea that all the good players in NZ are stacked in the Crusaders is bullshit.
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Well said
I'm hearing alot of whinging which essentially boils down to the Crusaders are too good atm
Lets screw them up a little by forcing players to move to weaker NZ teams in Super Rugby
But that won't work
Who the fuck in their right mind want to play for the Blues
Highlanders are bordering on a development team with a good hooker and halfback combination
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@pukunui said in Hurricanes 2020:
Wait a minute. Exactly who are all these ABs that the Crusaders have been luring away from other teams? What utter rubbish. Teams should be encouraged to develop long term success and part of that is holding onto the talent you have developed.
Forcing players to move completely misses the fact that they are free to move elsewhere at the end of their contracts. More often than not they stay with the successful team where they are happy. Forcing them out is going to push more players overseas.Oh and BBBR, Cane, TJP, BB, Ardie, Coles, Aaron Smith, Ben Smith, Ioane, Dmac, ALB and a shit load of other good players say the idea that all the good players in NZ are stacked in the Crusaders is bullshit.
At present the Crusaders can attract the best young talent because they have the most ABs. Would say Ennor be at the Crusaders or J Barrett be considering the Crusaders if they were a team like the Blues.
But they key is for the good of super rugby NZ must start spreading the best players out more evenly. This isn't happening and the ways its going it will only get worse. Maybe make a super rugby team pick up all or a % of an AB's salary up to a certain much higher level than at present. So financially it will be impossible to have more than say 8 current ABs in one team.
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@Jaguares4real said in Hurricanes 2020:
Well said
I'm hearing alot of whinging which essentially boils down to the Crusaders are too good atm
Who the fuck in their right mind want to play for the Blues
Highlanders are bordering on a development team with a good hooker and halfback combination
and you think this is a good thing? Its a poor situation that the NZU has watched happen. Its not only bad for NZ rugby but bad for super rugby as well.
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The crusaders are stacked with talent because they recruit and develop well. Pretty much the entire squad are guys who either made their first super rugby appearance for the Crusaders or who had been in another setup but not signed/resigned. Most of them have come through Canterbury in the NPC as well.
A salary cap would just push more guys overseas because in reduces the total amount of money available to pay players.
I don't think that the crusaders are as far ahead of the pack as people make out. The Hurricanes outplayed our forwards in the last two match ups. The chiefs tore us to pieces in Suva. The blues would have one in the first round bar a rookie missing a shot at goal. The jags might have won that final if not for a lack of compsure.
The difference isn't the quality of player, but the focus and determination, particularly on defence, seldom making mistakes. That's down to an exceptional coaching group (definitely the best since Rennie and his crew were runningtthe chiefs and probably better than the) and a very experienced core. No amount of forced transfers will help other teams achieve that. In fact, while other teams don't have that a salary cap will hinder them as they'll be losing top talent too. Every salary cap league I can think of (NRL, A League and NFL) have teams that constantly succeed despite the cap.
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NZ rugby has so much money. This won't decrease (it will though if something is not done about this bullshit boring uneven super rugby set up) but needs to be allocated ina way to ensure a more even distribution of players
Super rugby could be great again but not if NZ stacks (and has a structure to almost ensure this) one team with half or more of the top players
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Success is cyclical. The Crusaders didn't win anything for 8 years under Blackadder and this will happen again.
I put a lot of our recent success down to the current coaching staff, not the fact that we are "hoarding ABs"
Rugby in NZ is still regional/ tribal to an extent, I like supporting players that come through the Canterbury development system, I get to see them play club rugby in Chch, then for Canterbury and then for the Crusaders. Players shifting all the time turns it into the joke that American sport is.
The complaints on here reek of Hurricanes fans being bitter about the prospects of losing the Barretts. Jordie came through club rugby and NPC down here and Razor has always said he'll return at some point, and Beauden is supposed to be going to the Blues anyway.
It's pretty rare an established frontline AB moves to another franchise.
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Geez, what a load of cr*p. If they want franchises other than the Crusaders to be better, start improving your player identification and development. Give young players an opportunity to play at SR level instead of keeping them on ice. Improve culture, where needed. Get better coaches, who can develop better players and better game plans.
You can't convince me that there is not enough talent in the Blues, Chiefs and Hurricanes catchment to develop into good SR players, or even ABs. The Highlanders may depend on players from other catchments for demographic reasons. If franchises don't have enough talent in their squad, it's because they haven't identified the right talent, haven't developed that talent well, or their culture sucks. Most talented players don't want to move away from family if they can stay at a franchise that can develop them into good SR players and/or ABs.
If the rumoured move from Ofa Tu'ungafasi to the Saders happens, I'd not be in favour of that. The Blues sure need him, he's achieved becoming an AB, and he has come through their academy.
If Frizell moves to the Saders, at least he's going to the franchise of his NPC team ( Ta$man). But the Landers are already losing so many players and he became an AB while playing for them, so I'd not support that either, although he played 2 seasons for Ta$man before joining the Landers, so he's possibly been in the Crusaders set-up before moving.
If Jordie moves to the Saders, I've less of a problem with it, because he has been developed by Canterbury and the Crusaders academy, and if BB moves on from the Canes, he'll just want to join his other brother in Chch. Instead of saying that "he will look (much) better playing for a Crusader team stacked with ABs", you could just make the honest assessment that he may actually improve as a player and will not only look better, but become a better player at the Crusaders due to better coaching etc. But still, I'm not convinced the Crusaders need him, so unless he's unhappy at the Canes, let him stay there.
However, limiting the number of All Blacks at franchises (read: Crusaders), denies the truth that all of the Crusaders' current ABs were developed into All Blacks by the Crusaders. If you limit the number of ABs (by capping the allocated budget for ABs per franchise), you're forcing some players to move to other franchises. Have you ever thought of the possibility that that might result in those players having to play for teams they don't want to play for (possibly affecting their motivation)? Or those players performance dropping because they work with lesser coaches and trainers, play under inadequate game plans, or function in a team culture that doesn't suit them?
So I've some sympathy for putting some mild restrictions on player movement (i.e. established SR players, who have been developed by and get sufficient game time at their current franchise) and to a degree it already happens; I'm quite sure NZR had a big role in keeping Akira (and Rieko?) Ioane at the Blues before the last time he re-signed.
However, I'm absolutely against forcing players to move from one franchise to the other (read: from the Crusaders to another franchise). I'm quite sure if NZR would want to force some of the Crusaders players to play for other franchises, they'd opt for playing overseas instead. Actually, that may also be the consequence if you completely stop players from other franchises from moving to the Crusaders.
I'm also against stopping a player, whose development is stalling at another franchise, or who doesn't get sufficient game time at that franchsie, or who doesn't even get a contract at that franchise, from moving to another franchise if he can improve his carreer prospects. It happens in every profession. If you can't improve, can't get a promotion or a pay rise, you look for another employer where you can achieve that.
And while we're at it, some people are full of hypocrisy, too. They are complaining about good players, who are important to a franchise, moving to the Crusaders. But what about Lomax, who's extremely important to the Highlanders, moving to the Hurricanes? I haven't heard a Canes fan saying that that should not be possible because it's damaging the Highlanders (who have by far the smallest player pool). I don't know how Blues fans rate Scrafton, but he's also moving from a weaker performing team to the Canes. Should NZR stop that, too?
