Best Test XI - General chat
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Since it's been 5 years since we last did this, and the old thread was lost forever when the forum software was updated, I thought this was worth re-visiting.
Here's how it's going to work. Feel free to disagree/critique/offer advise on how it should or could be done better. I do however reserve the right to completely ignore you if I don't agree
We'll start with nominations for each category.
Nominations require a summary as to why they're being nominated/why people should vote for them.Categories are:
Opening Batsmen (2 choices)
Batsmen (4 choices)
Keeper (1 choice)
Bowlers (4 choices)A couple of points that may be contentious.
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There will be no allrounder category.
As this is a best ever team, we can assume 4 bowlers will be enough to take 20 wickets. -
No specialist spinner category.
I know until recently it's been pretty rare that we go into a test without a spinner. But I think we'll just let the individual decide if they include a spinner in their final line-up.
Someone can be nominated in more than one category, for example Brendan McCullum could receive nominations for both batsmen and keeper category, or Chris Cairns as both a batsmen or bowler.
If someone receives enough votes in more than one category to make the final team in those categories, they will fill the spot that they have the higher number of votes in. Their place in the other category will go to the person with the next highest number of votes.That's all I can think of, we'll deal with any issues that crop up along the way.
Nomination threads to follow shortly, happy nominating.
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@Gunner cheers fella,
key questions in these for me are always:
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are we picking the best XI players, or the best team? Combinations do matter (openers; left/right variation in bowlers, for instance) and could tip the balance of tight selections
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is this 'whole career' or 'peak few seasons'? Asking because Bond, y'know...
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@nzzp Bond's career was (sadly) a few peak seasons.
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@dogmeat said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@nzzp Bond's career was (sadly) a few peak seasons.
Oh, I know - but he'd be challenging for our best XI either, based on his body of work. Destroying THAT Australian team puts you on the top shelf below Paddles
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@nzzp said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@Gunner cheers fella,
key questions in these for me are always:
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are we picking the best XI players, or the best team? Combinations do matter (openers; left/right variation in bowlers, for instance) and could tip the balance of tight selections
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is this 'whole career' or 'peak few seasons'? Asking because Bond, y'know...
It’s the best players first, team balance second.
The final voting will come down to a bit of personal preference with team balance, for instance
the spinner/no spinner scenario.That probably doesn’t help much 🤣
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@Gunner said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@nzzp said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@Gunner cheers fella,
key questions in these for me are always:
-
are we picking the best XI players, or the best team? Combinations do matter (openers; left/right variation in bowlers, for instance) and could tip the balance of tight selections
-
is this 'whole career' or 'peak few seasons'? Asking because Bond, y'know...
It’s the best players first, team balance second.
The final voting will come down to a bit of personal preference with team balance, for instance
the spinner/no spinner scenario.That probably doesn’t help much 🤣
The whole six batsmen thing irks me a bit cos it means I theoretically can’t put in a keeper/batsman or all rounder. I’m not gonna pick Astle or McMillan just cos they were occasionally useful bowlers to balance the side.
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@MN5 said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@Gunner said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@nzzp said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@Gunner cheers fella,
key questions in these for me are always:
-
are we picking the best XI players, or the best team? Combinations do matter (openers; left/right variation in bowlers, for instance) and could tip the balance of tight selections
-
is this 'whole career' or 'peak few seasons'? Asking because Bond, y'know...
It’s the best players first, team balance second.
The final voting will come down to a bit of personal preference with team balance, for instance
the spinner/no spinner scenario.That probably doesn’t help much 🤣
The whole six batsmen thing irks me a bit cos it means I theoretically can’t put in a keeper/batsman or all rounder. I’m not gonna pick Astle or McMillan just cos they were occasionally useful bowlers to balance the side.
I hear ya.
From memory, last time I started off including an allrounder, but pretty much got crucified so we did away with it.
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@Gunner said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@Gunner said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@nzzp said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@Gunner cheers fella,
key questions in these for me are always:
-
are we picking the best XI players, or the best team? Combinations do matter (openers; left/right variation in bowlers, for instance) and could tip the balance of tight selections
-
is this 'whole career' or 'peak few seasons'? Asking because Bond, y'know...
It’s the best players first, team balance second.
The final voting will come down to a bit of personal preference with team balance, for instance
the spinner/no spinner scenario.That probably doesn’t help much 🤣
The whole six batsmen thing irks me a bit cos it means I theoretically can’t put in a keeper/batsman or all rounder. I’m not gonna pick Astle or McMillan just cos they were occasionally useful bowlers to balance the side.
I hear ya.
From memory, last time I started off including an allrounder, but pretty much got crucified so we did away with it.
You can’t please everyone on the fern
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@Gunner said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@Gunner said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@nzzp said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@Gunner cheers fella,
key questions in these for me are always:
-
are we picking the best XI players, or the best team? Combinations do matter (openers; left/right variation in bowlers, for instance) and could tip the balance of tight selections
-
is this 'whole career' or 'peak few seasons'? Asking because Bond, y'know...
It’s the best players first, team balance second.
The final voting will come down to a bit of personal preference with team balance, for instance
the spinner/no spinner scenario.That probably doesn’t help much 🤣
The whole six batsmen thing irks me a bit cos it means I theoretically can’t put in a keeper/batsman or all rounder. I’m not gonna pick Astle or McMillan just cos they were occasionally useful bowlers to balance the side.
I hear ya.
From memory, last time I started off including an allrounder, but pretty much got crucified so we did away with it.
I can’t fathom this. You have one of THE best all rounders of all time. Pick him as an all rounder and base your balance around that.
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@Catogrande said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@Gunner said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@Gunner said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@nzzp said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@Gunner cheers fella,
key questions in these for me are always:
-
are we picking the best XI players, or the best team? Combinations do matter (openers; left/right variation in bowlers, for instance) and could tip the balance of tight selections
-
is this 'whole career' or 'peak few seasons'? Asking because Bond, y'know...
It’s the best players first, team balance second.
The final voting will come down to a bit of personal preference with team balance, for instance
the spinner/no spinner scenario.That probably doesn’t help much 🤣
The whole six batsmen thing irks me a bit cos it means I theoretically can’t put in a keeper/batsman or all rounder. I’m not gonna pick Astle or McMillan just cos they were occasionally useful bowlers to balance the side.
I hear ya.
From memory, last time I started off including an allrounder, but pretty much got crucified so we did away with it.
I can’t fathom this. You have one of THE best all rounders of all time. Pick him as an all rounder and base your balance around that.
I think we need all rounders as options ( although Paddles and Dan are obviously best seamer and spinner respectively )
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Clarrie Grimmett and Ben Stokes, two of the greatest Cricketers of All Time. Both were born in New Zealand but played for other Test sides. Are they eligible for your team?
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@sparky said in Best Test XI - General chat:
Clarrie Grimmett and Ben Stokes, two of the greatest Cricketers of All Time. Both were born in New Zealand but played for other Test sides. Are they eligible for your team?
If Cairns can't make it as a batter or bowler alone then this guy is no fucken chance.
He's also a ranga who plays for England.
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@Catogrande @MN5 maybe we include an allrounder category in the nominations, then it’s left up to the individual how they balance their team when voting?
Seems fair...
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Hadlee's the all rounder. @MN5 has wood for Cairns and wants to update our bits and pieces team of the early 90's by including more
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@dogmeat said in Best Test XI - General chat:
Hadlee's the all rounder. @MN5 has wood for Cairns and wants to update our bits and pieces team of the early 90's by including more
fuck yes, i'm making it like our old ODI teams where no one averaged more than 35 with the bat, but damn ear everyone could bowl
that's real NZ cricket.
And to ram home my point, those teams won exactly as many world cups as our really good team we have now, with real batsmen and real bowlers and shit.
And they are playing in teal
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also, do we really need the nominations threads? This isn't like the ABs, we only have a couple of guys in the conversation really.
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@mariner4life said in Best Test XI - General chat:
also, do we really need the nominations threads? This isn't like the ABs, we only have a couple of guys in the conversation really.
Yeah off the top of my head I think we have about six guys who walk in.
No I don’t include Cairns in this list before you have a go....
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@MN5 I reckon 3,4,5 and Hadlee are locked in. Everyone else is debatable even though it'll probably be pretty conclusive for most positions once voting starts.
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@dogmeat said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 I reckon 3,4,5 and Hadlee are locked in. Everyone else is debatable even though it'll probably be pretty conclusive for most positions once voting starts.
I agree but I’d add Vettori. I also see the keeper role being between McCullum and Watling and no one else.
Latham has thrown the cat amongst the pigeons....some tough choices there.
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@dogmeat said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 I reckon 3,4,5 and Hadlee are locked in. Everyone else is debatable even though it'll probably be pretty conclusive for most positions once voting starts.
agree, but what i am saying is, there are maybe two options for each of the "not locked in" position, and we know who they are
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@MN5 said in Best Test XI - General chat:
I agree but I’d add Vettori. I also see the keeper role being between McCullum and Watling and no one else.
If we decide to have a spinner. Plus others have gone in to bat for the Fat Commentator
@mariner4life said in Best Test XI - General chat:
agree, but what i am saying is, there are maybe two options for each of the "not locked in" position, and we know who they are
Pretty much what I was saying as well. Openers 2/3 possibly 4 Bowlers 4/6 WK 1 /3 . 4 at a pinch
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@MN5 said in Best Test XI - General chat:
The whole six batsmen thing irks me a bit cos it means I theoretically can’t put in a keeper/batsman or all rounder. I’m not gonna pick Astle or McMillan just cos they were occasionally useful bowlers to balance the side.
Crowe and Williamson are both going to make it and could bowl as effectively or moreso than those two.
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@rotated said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - General chat:
The whole six batsmen thing irks me a bit cos it means I theoretically can’t put in a keeper/batsman or all rounder. I’m not gonna pick Astle or McMillan just cos they were occasionally useful bowlers to balance the side.
Crowe and Williamson are both going to make it and could bowl as effectively or moreso than those two.
14 wickets in 77 tests.
If we’re hedging any bets on Hogans bowling ability then the team is fucked.
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@MN5 said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@rotated said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - General chat:
The whole six batsmen thing irks me a bit cos it means I theoretically can’t put in a keeper/batsman or all rounder. I’m not gonna pick Astle or McMillan just cos they were occasionally useful bowlers to balance the side.
Crowe and Williamson are both going to make it and could bowl as effectively or moreso than those two.
14 wickets in 77 tests.
If we’re hedging any bets on Hogans bowling ability then the team is fucked.
Hogan stopped bowling because of back issues, not inability with the ball. Not sure where that fits in this, but if it's a fully fit team with no long term injuries etc., then Hogan's bowling works for me.
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@Godder said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@rotated said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - General chat:
The whole six batsmen thing irks me a bit cos it means I theoretically can’t put in a keeper/batsman or all rounder. I’m not gonna pick Astle or McMillan just cos they were occasionally useful bowlers to balance the side.
Crowe and Williamson are both going to make it and could bowl as effectively or moreso than those two.
14 wickets in 77 tests.
If we’re hedging any bets on Hogans bowling ability then the team is fucked.
Hogan stopped bowling because of back issues, not inability with the ball. Not sure where that fits in this, but if it's a fully fit team with no long term injuries etc., then Hogan's bowling works for me.
Coulda....shoulda.....
I prefer to go on proven ability not what might have happened.
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@MN5 said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@Godder said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@rotated said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - General chat:
The whole six batsmen thing irks me a bit cos it means I theoretically can’t put in a keeper/batsman or all rounder. I’m not gonna pick Astle or McMillan just cos they were occasionally useful bowlers to balance the side.
Crowe and Williamson are both going to make it and could bowl as effectively or moreso than those two.
14 wickets in 77 tests.
If we’re hedging any bets on Hogans bowling ability then the team is fucked.
Hogan stopped bowling because of back issues, not inability with the ball. Not sure where that fits in this, but if it's a fully fit team with no long term injuries etc., then Hogan's bowling works for me.
Coulda....shoulda.....
I prefer to go on proven ability not what might have happened.
It's not like he's being used as any more than the 6th bowler, he just has to roll his arm over.
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@Godder said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@Godder said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@rotated said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - General chat:
The whole six batsmen thing irks me a bit cos it means I theoretically can’t put in a keeper/batsman or all rounder. I’m not gonna pick Astle or McMillan just cos they were occasionally useful bowlers to balance the side.
Crowe and Williamson are both going to make it and could bowl as effectively or moreso than those two.
14 wickets in 77 tests.
If we’re hedging any bets on Hogans bowling ability then the team is fucked.
Hogan stopped bowling because of back issues, not inability with the ball. Not sure where that fits in this, but if it's a fully fit team with no long term injuries etc., then Hogan's bowling works for me.
Coulda....shoulda.....
I prefer to go on proven ability not what might have happened.
It's not like he's being used as any more than the 6th bowler, he just has to roll his arm over.
No course not and I’m certainly not doubting his place in the team but I don’t factor his bowling into the equation one iota.
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@Godder said in Best Test XI - General chat:
Not sure where that fits in this, but if it's a fully fit team with no long term injuries etc.,
Shane Bond has entered the chat
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@nzzp said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@Godder said in Best Test XI - General chat:
Not sure where that fits in this, but if it's a fully fit team with no long term injuries etc.,
Shane Bond has entered the chat
One might think that, but I couldn't possibly comment...
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@MN5 said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@Godder said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@Godder said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@rotated said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - General chat:
The whole six batsmen thing irks me a bit cos it means I theoretically can’t put in a keeper/batsman or all rounder. I’m not gonna pick Astle or McMillan just cos they were occasionally useful bowlers to balance the side.
Crowe and Williamson are both going to make it and could bowl as effectively or moreso than those two.
14 wickets in 77 tests.
If we’re hedging any bets on Hogans bowling ability then the team is fucked.
Hogan stopped bowling because of back issues, not inability with the ball. Not sure where that fits in this, but if it's a fully fit team with no long term injuries etc., then Hogan's bowling works for me.
Coulda....shoulda.....
I prefer to go on proven ability not what might have happened.
It's not like he's being used as any more than the 6th bowler, he just has to roll his arm over.
No course not and I’m certainly not doubting his place in the team but I don’t factor his bowling into the equation one iota.
I'm not factoring his or Kane's bowling into their selections, but they do improve the balance of the side and are a factor in the selection of the number 6.
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On the Cairns debate, which is really just @MN5 vs the world, for an all rounder to be considered they have to command their spot in one discipline. E.G. Hadlee makes it as a bowler, and his batting is a bonus that strengthens our lineup.
Cairns weakens our batting and weakens our bowling where better batsmen and bowlers could take those places at 6 or in our group of bowlers. I'm really not a fan of bits and pieces all rounders in test cricket. They're worth it in the shorter forms but carrying a player in the 5 day game can be really costly.
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@No-Quarter said in Best Test XI - General chat:
On the Cairns debate, which is really just @MN5 vs the world, for an all rounder to be considered they have to command their spot in one discipline. E.G. Hadlee makes it as a bowler, and his batting is a bonus that strengthens our lineup.
Cairns weakens our batting and weakens our bowling where better batsmen and bowlers could take those places at 6 or in our group of bowlers. I**'m really not a fan of bits and pieces all rounders in test cricket**. They're worth it in the shorter forms but carrying a player in the 5 day game can be really costly.
No team carried Cairns, it was the other way round. He's not bits and pieces he was one of five Wisden players of the year in 2000 and universally regarded as one of the best ever in his prime. NZ has had a fuck load of the types you mention, he was not one. Very good bowler. Good batsman. He was not an absolutely World Class player but I believe in our entire history we've only had two who are, Paddles and KW.
13 five fors ( third on the all time NZ list ), five tons. In other words 18 big moments in 62 test matches. I agree, not quite as good as Southee, Wags or Boult with the ball but not much behind.....and the batting makes him a much more valuable pick for a team.
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@MN5 despite his career including taking money from the bookies, he was a fine player and he absolutely did carry some very poor NZ teams when he played. But this is an all time XI we are talking about. We either compromise our batting lineup or our bowling lineup depending where we slot him in the team.
I get your argument but if we assume we are playing other all time XIs then we definitely can't afford to weaken our bowling lineup so he'd have to play as a 6, but he's not good enough to bat that high.
You're basically arguing that we should lengthen our batting lineup at the expense of our bowling as we don't back our top 6 to get the job done. You don't tend to win test matches with that line of thinking.
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@No-Quarter said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 despite his career including taking money from the bookies, he was a fine player and he absolutely did carry some very poor NZ teams when he played. But this is an all time XI we are talking about. We either compromise our batting lineup or our bowling lineup depending where we slot him in the team.
I get your argument but if we assume we are playing other all time XIs then we definitely can't afford to weaken our bowling lineup so he'd have to play as a 6, but he's not good enough to bat that high.
You're basically arguing that we should lengthen our batting lineup at the expense of our bowling as we don't back our top 6 to get the job done. You don't tend to win test matches with that line of thinking.
Yeah if only cricket was played perfectly each time huh ? Even splendid batsmen get ducks, even splendid bowlers get no wickets and go for runs.....for my all time team I’d like to hedge my bets on a guy who is a good chance to make a big contribution. Contrary to fern logic our current trio, while all bloody good, are in no ways head and shoulders above him.
Does Cairns as a bowler compete with Paddles or Bond ?
No way.
Does he compete with the trinity playing now ? Absolutely.
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Polls are live.
I have merged the nomination threads into the poll threads so we don't have two separate conversations going on about the same thing. -
I've had a look at the poll results so far, and the only indecisive places in the team are openers (3 clear contenders for 2 places) and 4th batsman (3 are clearly selected).
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@No-Quarter said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 despite his career including taking money from the bookies, he was a fine player and he absolutely did carry some very poor NZ teams when he played. But this is an all time XI we are talking about. We either compromise our batting lineup or our bowling lineup depending where we slot him in the team.
I get your argument but if we assume we are playing other all time XIs then we definitely can't afford to weaken our bowling lineup so he'd have to play as a 6, but he's not good enough to bat that high.
You're basically arguing that we should lengthen our batting lineup at the expense of our bowling as we don't back our top 6 to get the job done. You don't tend to win test matches with that line of thinking.
I don't think Cairns carried poor NZ teams. When the NZ teams were poor, Cairns was also poor, and anecdotally he was probably a large reason why the team was poor in the first place. (Culture and discipline)
He got good, when the team matured, the leadership fitted the egos, and the culture got good.
But, yes, it is harder to shine or excel in a poor team. But I don't think he did much carrying. I thnk he may have pulled off some good ODI batting in that period, but don't think he carried any test lienups.
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@Rapido said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@No-Quarter said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 despite his career including taking money from the bookies, he was a fine player and he absolutely did carry some very poor NZ teams when he played. But this is an all time XI we are talking about. We either compromise our batting lineup or our bowling lineup depending where we slot him in the team.
I get your argument but if we assume we are playing other all time XIs then we definitely can't afford to weaken our bowling lineup so he'd have to play as a 6, but he's not good enough to bat that high.
You're basically arguing that we should lengthen our batting lineup at the expense of our bowling as we don't back our top 6 to get the job done. You don't tend to win test matches with that line of thinking.
I don't think Cairns carried poor NZ teams. When the NZ teams were poor, Cairns was also poor, and anecdotally he was probably a large reason why the team was poor in the first place. (Culture and discipline)
He got good, when the team matured, the leadership fitted the egos, and the culture got good.
But, yes, it is harder to shine or excel in a poor team. But I don't think he did much carrying. I thnk he may have pulled off some good ODI batting in that period, but don't think he carried any test lienups.
So you're saying that any number of donkeys who played for the Black Caps in the mid 90s would have been better players if Cairns wasn't around ?
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@MN5 said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@Rapido said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@No-Quarter said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 despite his career including taking money from the bookies, he was a fine player and he absolutely did carry some very poor NZ teams when he played. But this is an all time XI we are talking about. We either compromise our batting lineup or our bowling lineup depending where we slot him in the team.
I get your argument but if we assume we are playing other all time XIs then we definitely can't afford to weaken our bowling lineup so he'd have to play as a 6, but he's not good enough to bat that high.
You're basically arguing that we should lengthen our batting lineup at the expense of our bowling as we don't back our top 6 to get the job done. You don't tend to win test matches with that line of thinking.
I don't think Cairns carried poor NZ teams. When the NZ teams were poor, Cairns was also poor, and anecdotally he was probably a large reason why the team was poor in the first place. (Culture and discipline)
He got good, when the team matured, the leadership fitted the egos, and the culture got good.
But, yes, it is harder to shine or excel in a poor team. But I don't think he did much carrying. I thnk he may have pulled off some good ODI batting in that period, but don't think he carried any test lienups.
So you're saying that any number of donkeys who played for the Black Caps in the mid 90s would have been better players if Cairns wasn't around ?
Might have had a better attitude?
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@booboo said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@Rapido said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@No-Quarter said in Best Test XI - General chat:
@MN5 despite his career including taking money from the bookies, he was a fine player and he absolutely did carry some very poor NZ teams when he played. But this is an all time XI we are talking about. We either compromise our batting lineup or our bowling lineup depending where we slot him in the team.
I get your argument but if we assume we are playing other all time XIs then we definitely can't afford to weaken our bowling lineup so he'd have to play as a 6, but he's not good enough to bat that high.
You're basically arguing that we should lengthen our batting lineup at the expense of our bowling as we don't back our top 6 to get the job done. You don't tend to win test matches with that line of thinking.
I don't think Cairns carried poor NZ teams. When the NZ teams were poor, Cairns was also poor, and anecdotally he was probably a large reason why the team was poor in the first place. (Culture and discipline)
He got good, when the team matured, the leadership fitted the egos, and the culture got good.
But, yes, it is harder to shine or excel in a poor team. But I don't think he did much carrying. I thnk he may have pulled off some good ODI batting in that period, but don't think he carried any test lienups.
So you're saying that any number of donkeys who played for the Black Caps in the mid 90s would have been better players if Cairns wasn't around ?
Might have had a better attitude?
Actually I might change my vote for bowlers, Hadlee chose to keep the car that he won which created a bit of division in the team by all accounts.
Decent enough player but I might pick Ewen Chatfield or Martin Snedden from that era instead, they never won cars or got accused of being prima donnas.
