Best Test XI - POLL - Opening Batsmen
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Lets settle this.
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Nominate your opening batsmen.
Nominations require a summary as to why they're being nominated/why people should vote for them. -
Latham - very consistent at the top, always takes the shine off the ball and has the ability to score tons if he gets set
Richardson - didn't go on with it often but he blunted attacks and batted time nearly every innings. The ability of a test opener to consistently take the shine off the new ball can't be overstated.
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Glenn Turner. Rock solid in defence and had a sublime straight drive.
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John Wright - averaged over 37 as opener in the 80s, and was NZ's highest run scorer when he retired.
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Sticking up for the old fellas, but I'd suggest including Bert Sutcliffe.
A Test average of over 40 in his day was bloody impressive and he was regarded as one of the best left-handers of any era by his peers. Tough bastard too in the mould of Buck Shelford against fast bowlers.
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@No-Quarter Richardson also the best average of all our openers if you remove not outs
Still won't get my vote though
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
Sticking up for the old fellas, but I'd suggest including Bert Sutcliffe.
A Test average of over 40 in his day was bloody impressive and he was regarded as one of the best left-handers of any era by his peers. Tough bastard too in the mould of Buck Shelford against fast bowlers.
Statsguru tells me Sutcliffe average 45 as an opener, 33 as a middle order. 40 career average.
Not sure why he stopped, or paused opening? To do with his head knock?
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Stu Dempster.
Only played 10 tests as NZ granted test status.
Tests M I NO Runs HS Ave 100 50
New Zealand 10 15 4 723 136 65.72 2 5But also played 2 unofficial 'tests' v Australia 2 years before NZ granted test status. Averaged 36 v them.
would take it to '12' tests to give a slightly larger sample size:
Tests M I NO Runs HS Ave 100 50
New Zealand 12 19 5 833 136 59.50 2 5Had a good FC record. Ave 44.98 and 12145 runs.
Can see he averaged 49.52 for Nwe Zealanders in tour games and avergaed 49.04 for Leicestershire in county cricket. -
@Rapido said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
Not sure why he stopped, or paused opening? To do with his head knock?
Dunno. Perhaps as he, along with John Reid, were probably the only genuine Test class players we had at the time, he was moved up and down the order to maximise his impact..
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@Rapido I thought about Dempster when I was nominating Donnelly as those two and Sutcliffe are the three old timers worthy of at least passing consideration.
Dempster had a lot of NO's in his comparatively short career though which put me off.
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@Rapido said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
Stu Dempster.
Only played 10 tests as NZ granted test status.Similar to Martin Donnelly. Played 7 Tests with an average of nearly 53. Played Test Rugby at 13 as well.
Not enough Tests, I guess, to see if they were able to maintain their records.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
@Rapido said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
Stu Dempster.
Only played 10 tests as NZ granted test status.Similar to Martin Donnelly. Played 7 Tests with an average of nearly 53. Played Test Rugby at 13 as well.
Not enough Tests, I guess, to see if they were able to maintain their records.
Yeah. We're not talking a Voges situation or Mark Greatbatch career start. There was 12 years between Donelly's (and Cowie's) first and last tour. Obviously they could maintain it. And back it up in county cricket.
But, I'm not expecting them to make final 11's, as there are other options now. But 20 years ago these guys were far more arguable.
Donnelly's record is very England-biased. Only played them, county cricket.
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NZ teams were quite weak pre-1970's and were pretty much carried by 2 or 3 players and were often fighting rearguard actions.
Would be interesting to what the likes of John Reid & Sutcliffe, would have gone in today's Black Caps - probably be up there with Williamson & co.
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@Rapido said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
But, I'm not expecting them to make final 11's, as there are other options now.
Really only had the longer form of the game to play back then too so it's hard to judge all-round batting skill. That said, from what I've read about John Reid, he'd have been an absolutely awesome Limited Over player
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
NZ teams were quite weak pre-
19701980'sP40 W3 (all at home) L19 (13 were either by an innings, by more than 100 runs or by 10 wickets) D18
An improvement but we were still aspiring to be Bangladesh. Maiden victories against Oz and England and some battling draws and a couple of matches we should have won but for a bit of self belief make the decade seem better than it really was.
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The 90's until Fleming took over were pretty dire too P 55 W7 L26
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@dogmeat said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
@Rapido I thought about Dempster when I was nominating Donnelly as those two and Sutcliffe are the three old timers worthy of at least passing consideration.
Dempster had a lot of NO's in his comparatively short career though which put me off.
We have an opening batsman who averaged 65 in tests and we're not going to pick him?
This is a team that is going to have to trail out alongside the greatest Australians of all time!!!
In my mind the only question is who goes out with Dempster and frankly, I'm tempted to say Rodney Redmond
- but, probably Wright, Turner or Sutcliffe. -
Fleming. He opened enough to be legitimately a nominee and if looking at some of his bigger scores and you draw any sort of distinction between opening and batting first drop then you didn't watch a lot of NZ cricket at that time.
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@rotated said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
Fleming. He opened enough to be legitimately a nominee and if looking at some of his bigger scores and you draw any sort of distinction between opening and batting first drop then you didn't watch a lot of NZ cricket at that time.
Ha was thinking this while drifting off in a work meeting this avo.....the amount of times Fleming found himself in the middle in the first couple of overs in any given test was a disgrace and a damning indictment on our openers
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@MN5 said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
@rotated said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
Fleming. He opened enough to be legitimately a nominee and if looking at some of his bigger scores and you draw any sort of distinction between opening and batting first drop then you didn't watch a lot of NZ cricket at that time.
Ha was thinking this while drifting off in a work meeting this avo.....the amount of times Fleming found himself in the middle in the first couple of overs in any given test was a disgrace and a damning indictment on our openers
It's why Richardson got so much love when he came about. We finally had an opener that was willing to just dig the fuck in and take the shine off the new ball without a care given for whether he was scoring any runs.
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@No-Quarter said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
@rotated said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
Fleming. He opened enough to be legitimately a nominee and if looking at some of his bigger scores and you draw any sort of distinction between opening and batting first drop then you didn't watch a lot of NZ cricket at that time.
Ha was thinking this while drifting off in a work meeting this avo.....the amount of times Fleming found himself in the middle in the first couple of overs in any given test was a disgrace and a damning indictment on our openers
It's why Richardson got so much love when he came about. We finally had an opener that was willing to just dig the fuck in and take the shine off the new ball without a care given for whether he was scoring any runs.
just the four hundreds, none of them big either. But by crikey he did his job.
I think this is a four horse race between him, Sutcliffe, Turner and Rods son.
I can't pick Dempster, 10 tests just isn't enough.
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I think we stopped being complete turkeys and a laughing stock in the '70's. A fair number of decent players came thru in that era who, while not world class, weren't far below it - Congdon, Bruce Taylor, Hastings, Hedley Howarth, etc.
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@No-Quarter said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
@rotated said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
Fleming. He opened enough to be legitimately a nominee and if looking at some of his bigger scores and you draw any sort of distinction between opening and batting first drop then you didn't watch a lot of NZ cricket at that time.
Ha was thinking this while drifting off in a work meeting this avo.....the amount of times Fleming found himself in the middle in the first couple of overs in any given test was a disgrace and a damning indictment on our openers
It's why Richardson got so much love when he came about. We finally had an opener that was willing to just dig the fuck in and take the shine off the new ball without a care given for whether he was scoring any runs.
One of my favourite Cricket TV moments was Botham banging on and on and on on how crap Rigour was in some England-NZ test or other and how NZ must have better players. He went on for hours.
Finally fellow commentator David Lloyd had had enough and simply said : "He's played 22 Tests and has an average of 46.....can't be that bad"
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God i love Bumble
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@mariner4life said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
God i love Bumble
I always thought Bumble and Boycott were the same person til they showed him in the commentary box.....
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@MN5 said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
@No-Quarter said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
@rotated said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
Fleming. He opened enough to be legitimately a nominee and if looking at some of his bigger scores and you draw any sort of distinction between opening and batting first drop then you didn't watch a lot of NZ cricket at that time.
Ha was thinking this while drifting off in a work meeting this avo.....the amount of times Fleming found himself in the middle in the first couple of overs in any given test was a disgrace and a damning indictment on our openers
It's why Richardson got so much love when he came about. We finally had an opener that was willing to just dig the fuck in and take the shine off the new ball without a care given for whether he was scoring any runs.
just the four hundreds, none of them big either. But by crikey he did his job.
I think this is a four horse race between him, Sutcliffe, Turner and Rods son.
I can't pick Dempster, 10 tests just isn't enough.
I'd happily include Wright in any voting list, his career was great by our standards. Not that Trevor Franklin is being considered (his personal career stats are pretty average), but Wright and Franklin are NZ's best opening partnership by the stats.
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@Godder said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
@No-Quarter said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
@rotated said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
Fleming. He opened enough to be legitimately a nominee and if looking at some of his bigger scores and you draw any sort of distinction between opening and batting first drop then you didn't watch a lot of NZ cricket at that time.
Ha was thinking this while drifting off in a work meeting this avo.....the amount of times Fleming found himself in the middle in the first couple of overs in any given test was a disgrace and a damning indictment on our openers
It's why Richardson got so much love when he came about. We finally had an opener that was willing to just dig the fuck in and take the shine off the new ball without a care given for whether he was scoring any runs.
just the four hundreds, none of them big either. But by crikey he did his job.
I think this is a four horse race between him, Sutcliffe, Turner and Rods son.
I can't pick Dempster, 10 tests just isn't enough.
I'd happily include Wright in any voting list, his career was great by our standards. Not that Trevor Franklin is being considered (his personal career stats are pretty average), but Wright and Franklin are NZ's best opening partnership by the stats.
Wright was probably better than his average so deserves a mention.
Trevor Franklin had a test strike rate of 26.44. Even boring old Geoff Boycott had that beat comfortably with 39.8.
During the test in which Crowe got 299 Franklin managed 39 off 176 fucken balls !!!
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@Godder said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
Wright and Franklin are NZ's best opening partnership by the stats.
Yeah, we aren't picking partnerships though, nor teams, nor captaincy skills, etc.
Best two openers. Still lots of variables. Who did they face? Longevity? Era? Tests at home?
I'm with Richardson and Latham, unless someone convinces me otherwise. Just did / do their primary role well, see off the new ball, wear out the bowlers. I can't comment how well the earlier guys did that - I didn't see them.
Might be due for the vote.
Bloody @gunner has buggered off to golf again and isn't adjudicating.
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@Godder said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
I'd happily include Wright in any voting list, his career was great by our standards. Not that Trevor Franklin is being considered (his personal career stats are pretty average), but Wright and Franklin are NZ's best opening partnership by the stats.
I think there's a very good case for Wrighty to make the team.
People look at his career average of 37 and scoff, but like plenty of others he got away to a pretty bad start in tests and was probably only persisted with because there wasn't much else around. But as time went on he became better and better and extremely reliable.
Item 1: His reverse cumulative average.
Over his last 18 tests he averaged 55.4.
Over his last 38 tests (the same number as Rigor played), Wrighty averaged 45.05 (compared with Mark's 44.78), while also scoring 8 centuries, 14 fifties and I daresay at a markedly better clip.
Running Wrighty against Tom Latham (and I don't like to criticize Tom for doing exactly what I've criticized numerous NZ batsmen for failing to do), Tom has really plundered the weaker attacks - Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe especially. When you line him up against the top teams - Australia, India, South Africa and England, his average slides to about 28.
Conversely, Wright's average actually improves slightly when you run him against West Indies, Australia, India and England. I don't think Tom has anything like this on his CV....
Full Scorecard of New Zealand vs West Indies 1st Test 1986/87 - Score Report | ESPNcricinfo.com
Complete Scorecard of New Zealand vs West Indies 1st Test 1986/87, West Indies tour of New Zealand only on ESPNcricinfo.com. Find the complete scorecard of New Zealand vs West Indies 1st Test Online
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@MN5 said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
@mariner4life said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
God i love Bumble
I always thought Bumble and Boycott were the same person til they showed him in the commentary box.....
what? one is self deprecating and funny.
one is boring, arrogant and very old fashioned
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So at the moment our nominees are:
Richardson
Wright
Latham
Turner
Sutcliffe
Dempster
FlemingI might get onto creating the polls this evening while watching the T20... if not I definitely will over the weekend at some stage.
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@mariner4life said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
@mariner4life said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
God i love Bumble
I always thought Bumble and Boycott were the same person til they showed him in the commentary box.....
what? one is self deprecating and funny.
one is boring, arrogant and very old fashioned
Might be the voice or accent? One is from Lancashire and the other Yorkshire though...
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@mariner4life said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
@MN5 said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
@mariner4life said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
God i love Bumble
I always thought Bumble and Boycott were the same person til they showed him in the commentary box.....
what? one is self deprecating and funny.
one is boring, arrogant and very old fashioned
I think it was the accent.....Boycott could be a real funny bugger according to himself though.
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@Chris-B said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
@Godder said in Best Test XI - NOMINATIONS - Opening Batsmen:
I'd happily include Wright in any voting list, his career was great by our standards. Not that Trevor Franklin is being considered (his personal career stats are pretty average), but Wright and Franklin are NZ's best opening partnership by the stats.
I think there's a very good case for Wrighty to make the team.
People look at his career average of 37 and scoff, but like plenty of others he got away to a pretty bad start in tests and was probably only persisted with because there wasn't much else around. But as time went on he became better and better and extremely reliable.
Item 1: His reverse cumulative average.
Over his last 18 tests he averaged 55.4.
Over his last 38 tests (the same number as Rigor played), Wrighty averaged 45.05 (compared with Mark's 44.78), while also scoring 8 centuries, 14 fifties and I daresay at a markedly better clip.
Running Wrighty against Tom Latham (and I don't like to criticize Tom for doing exactly what I've criticized numerous NZ batsmen for failing to do), Tom has really plundered the weaker attacks - Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe especially. When you line him up against the top teams - Australia, India, South Africa and England, his average slides to about 28.
Conversely, Wright's average actually improves slightly when you run him against West Indies, Australia, India and England. I don't think Tom has anything like this on his CV....
Full Scorecard of New Zealand vs West Indies 1st Test 1986/87 - Score Report | ESPNcricinfo.com
Complete Scorecard of New Zealand vs West Indies 1st Test 1986/87, West Indies tour of New Zealand only on ESPNcricinfo.com. Find the complete scorecard of New Zealand vs West Indies 1st Test Online
A bad start indeed.
Out the very first ball he faced in Tests for a Royal Duck. Went on to make 55 ... no DRS in those days to keep a check on home town decisions.
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Latham shouldn't be there. His test record is helped a lot by playing in a good team and by the opponents he gets to face. Turner averaged 65 against the West Indies attack!
I argue Sutcliffe deserves a spot too, although you could hold his lack of games opening against him. I would also rate Wright ahead of Latham, but not Richardson or Dempster.
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Boycott seems to like the sound of his own voice a bit, but his analysis is brilliant at times. Also like the way he sticks up for players going thru a bad patch and is constructive in his criticism.
Bumble is pretty much spot-on with his analysis, he's also great fun. One of the best out there.
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@MN5 said in Best Test XI - POLL - Opening Batsmen:
I think it was the accent.....Boycott could be a real funny bugger according to himself though.
There's a story i heard where a Oz fast bowler was sledging Boycott and warned him the next ball would be really, really fast. Said ball was delivered and Boycott played it fairly easily.
Bowler glares down the wicket, Boycott shouts out to him "Call that fast? My aunt Mimi bowls faster than that an' she 63 year old..."
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@Victor-Meldrew Boycott has a reputation for avoiding the fast stuff. Based on running suicidal singles when batting against Lillian Thompson to get off strike and then making himself unavailable for test cricket for a few years.
Ignores the fact that he faced all the worlds best in county cricket.
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@hydro11 I think Turner should be a shoo in. I compared Latham and Sutcliffe's career innings by innings. Latham hasn't padded his average as you suggest IMO. There's very little in it and Bert definitely played in weaker sides and probably should have retired a few years earlier but in the end I went for Latham but wouldn't be unhappy to see Sutcliffe walk out.
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