Working From Home
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In other work news: they've finally started the process of getting everyone back in the office more regularly. They
had a wank term for it, but I can't be arsed looking it up.At the moment our team goes in Wednesdays and we're apparently ahead of the curve. Everyone will need 1 day / week by June and then 2 and 3 by later in the year.
I'm told it's to help decision making, which I agree with in terms of being face to face creating a bit more accountability.
I'm also told it's to help our reputation with the general public, which I disagree with: company makes billions while slapping suppliers and customers alike.
How slap-them-quicker/more efficiently is supposed to improve that, I don't know.
Should be interesting.
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@NTA we've been having the same discussion for years already, if anything i think our decision makers have sat on the fence too long, making suggestions that people should come in more without doing much if they dont....but now we're 2-3 years post COVID and people have completely different lives
i go in every day just because i find working from home a bit lonely
The problem for us, i definitely agree being in the office is better for the younger team members, people that have less control over their own workload...but then the ones theyre going to be learning off of...the seniors that control their own work are the ones that tell me they dont see ever coming into the office again
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@Kiwiwomble mostly I'm in the dungeon writing code and getting data for people, so being alone is my preference.
The impression I got from the boss in the team meeting this morning is that they're also concerned people aren't "working" their hours.
That's fine CEO-type person, but let me ask you this: if my productivity has gone up since WFH started in COVID times when I was WFH fulltime, compared to all the years prior, does that mean all the meetings and desk time was pointless?
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@NTA definitely some people, like your self, have found new levels of efficiency but ive also had people tell me they much prefer working from home because they can do laundry, and go for a run or the gym, look after kids during the day etc...their overall life efficiency might be up...but not much of it is work, now that i manage a team rather than doing the actual work....it definitely easier to be over what everyone is working on if they in the office rather than spending time trying to call people
and i completely understand the idea of flexible hours and if you get your 40 hrs of work done then who cares when it happens...but for lots of my team the work includes a certain amount of being available to answer questions...so being off line for 2-3 during the day...but being online between 9pm and 11pm...is fuck all use honestly
i think the one big lesson is one rule doesn't work for everyone
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The same is happening in NZ and at my workplace, I wonder if the government put a word out to the larger organisations to encourage them to get people back into the office, as the cities are dying? Our workplace is trying the "encourage" people thing to start with, but will likely try to enforce it more down the track. I'm not quite sure where I sit on it, I am infinitely more productive at home without all the distractions, but I do see the value in teams getting face to face at least once a week. My team is split across Auckland and Welly so we'll never get our whole team in together regardless.
Their "encouragement" email was met with 100s of downvotes haha, so clearly people have restructured their lives around being able to work remotely. Undoing that is going to be like pushing shit up hill with a stick.
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Listen fellas, I know I really am a grumpy old man etc, but surely if you get paid to do work and boss decides he wants you to do it in office, that would be end of argument?? I retired and never had office job etc, but hell I know grandaughter saying how shit she finds when she wants to talk or ask advice of her manager, it can be hard as he supposedly working at home, and can't always get contacted easily.
She in Gov't agency here (police admin stuff) and I just get my head around fact that you can't have face to face meetings almost whenever needed with superiors etc! -
It's simple. Based on working with many different people over the years.
- Some people, "working from home" - are going to take the piss.
- Some people, "working from home" - end up doing more hours than working in the office.
Typically - the first type of person - is pretty much useless anyway. They're half the workforce - and we just deal with the fact that they do fuck-all, but pay them to not be unemployed. I'm sure there's a better term out there - but something like "educated ne'er-do-well"... is the bulk of modern humanity. I'm smashed, somebody please come up with a better term.
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@No-Quarter said in Grumpy Old Man:
The same is happening in NZ and at my workplace, I wonder if the government put a word out to the larger organisations to encourage them to get people back into the office, as the cities are dying?
Definitely part of it.
And that makes me laugh as - particularly the tech industry - they put all this money into making offices with ping-pong tables and free beer on tap and such, so that they could be disruptors and find new technologies.
Now the whole industry of commerical real estate is being disrupted, and it's like "hey.... wait?!!"
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@Dan54 said in Grumpy Old Man:
Listen fellas, I know I really am a grumpy old man etc, but surely if you get paid to do work and boss decides he wants you to do it in office, that would be end of argument??
Absolutely. Which is why a lot of people quit jobs when the market was good and the office conditions weren't to their liking.
Now that the market is leaner, people will think twice.
@Dan54 said in Grumpy Old Man:
She in Gov't agency here (police admin stuff) and I just get my head around fact that you can't have face to face meetings almost whenever needed with superiors etc!
One person in our chain of command is British. They've been working 6 weeks here and there in Ireland due to a sick relative and won't work Sydney hours.
THAT is taking the piss.
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@NTA said in Grumpy Old Man:
THAT is taking the piss.
Every single day of my working life, over the last decade - I think I'm taking the piss - for one reason or another. Then look at every other fluffybunnny - and realise they are fluffier bunnies than I could ever hope to be. But in other ways. They're just... ugh dumb. retards. Literally - not derogative.
I am a very fucking highly functioning alcoholic - but the fact that I'm being paid a similar wage to merely-functional-retards.... fucks me off. And makes me drink more. And the beautiful circle of life continues. -
Working in a MSP with teams spanning timezones everyfuckingwhere, it was obvious to me a bunch of the workforce was paid for presenteeism. Without which shit middle managers would feel powerless and be exposed as adding two-fifths of fuck all.
Now I've been working from home since Covid started. And have only recently started going to client sites occasionally because of the undeniable benefit of having impromptu discussions. All engineers WFH if they want.
To make this work requires smart people with good work ethics. Everyone else requires adult supervision and even then they'll skulk off and be unproductive.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Grumpy Old Man:
@NTA definitely some people, like your self, have found new levels of efficiency but ive also had people tell me they much prefer working from home because they can do laundry, and go for a run or the gym, look after kids during the day etc...their overall life efficiency might be up...but not much of it is work
They told us we could have work-life balance
It's the extra layers of getting ready and sitting in fucking traffic. No, I'm not going to use that extra time to do more work, but if I'm killing off my weekly tasks in 30 hours (or less) instead of 40 because it is quieter at home.
And if I have achieved that without having to put on long pants more than one day a week, everyone is winning because the employer is getting their money's worth, and I'm happier and more likely to stay.
I went down a rabbit hole on YouTube about "Bullshit Jobs". Some interesting stuff there.
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We're back in 4 days a week now and to be honest, I prefer it. Working from home when everyone was working from home was fine, and life around work was easier, but these days, lots of stuff happens between meetings, on the way to meetings, bumping into people. Its easier to have 2 minute conversations face to face than scheduling bloody calls as people's diaries are a nightmare and you can never find the right person at the right time if you're not in the office.
Also, going back 4 or 5 days means that the flexibilities you built into home life just simply aren't an option anymore therefore the stress of trying to / working out when you can be available to drop kids off etc has all gone away and family life has largely gone back to how it was before - everyone knows where they stand. Conscious my kids are a bit older now so they are up when i get home from work as opposed to pre covid when i was lucky to see them during the week so that's less of a problem too.
Overall, work is more fun with people in the office. If i was 25, I would damn well want to be in the office, its impossible to learn multiple skills from multiple people if you are sitting at home.
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We have a Monday-Wednesday office policy. The place is pretty empty Thursday and Friday
There is no doubt that the team as a whole are more productive across basically every measure when we are in the office together
Selfishly, I generally wake up with smile on Thursday mornings
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@NTA said in Grumpy Old Man:
@Kiwiwomble said in Grumpy Old Man:
@NTA definitely some people, like your self, have found new levels of efficiency but ive also had people tell me they much prefer working from home because they can do laundry, and go for a run or the gym, look after kids during the day etc...their overall life efficiency might be up...but not much of it is work
They told us we could have work-life balance
It's the extra layers of getting ready and sitting in fucking traffic. No, I'm not going to use that extra time to do more work, but if I'm killing off my weekly tasks in 30 hours (or less) instead of 40 because it is quieter at home.
And if I have achieved that without having to put on long pants more than one day a week, everyone is winning because the employer is getting their money's worth, and I'm happier and more likely to stay.
I went down a rabbit hole on YouTube about "Bullshit Jobs". Some interesting stuff there.
sure...thats how it started for lots of people...but now going to the gym or a run isn't from 8 till 9....its "i like the teacher in the class from 930-1030 so im going to do that instead...plus 30min on either side to get there etc
as i say...it works great if your job entails sitting down and "doing something"....less so if it involves arranging teams of people to go and do stuff or answering questions form clients....i now spend part of my day telling clients "yeah...they should online today...i'll chase them up to see where they are"
and what was a 5min conversation pre covid where you ask someone to do something and then see them doing it....is now several attempts to find them on line....agree when they'll be free...booking in a call....tell them whats needed...and then repeat process to check how theyre going
@antipodean said in Grumpy Old Man:
... Without which shit middle managers would feel powerless and be exposed as adding two-fifths of fuck all.
next time just tag me
@voodoo said in Grumpy Old Man:
We have a Monday-Wednesday office policy. The place is pretty empty Thursday and Friday
There is no doubt that the team as a whole are more productive across basically every measure when we are in the office together
Selfishly, I generally wake up with smile on Thursday mornings
im lucky that i still have a small but good team what will come in on thursdays and fridays, go have a beer after work
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I was 3 days in and 2 home, and everyone was in Monday. Worked well, certainly had to keep whereabouts updated on WFH days. And popping away from desk to hang out the washing wasted time probably equalled gossip in office time. But I know for sure a fair few took the piss - but half of our area were different group, full it nerds, and they really took the piss ime
Now I am working for an Oz company and its fully WFH. Just started, so I'm not sure how this will work for me! But structure on time at desk,, which is fine by me, and separate workstation away from living area and also my gaming pc. Work/play apart from each other
Non grumpy bit. Have my music on, when not in meetings and calls, and when my watch tells me I need to move I can dad dance to my heart's content until move warning is cleared 🤣
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@Dodge said in Grumpy Old Man:
We're back in 4 days a week now and to be honest, I prefer it. Working from home when everyone was working from home was fine, and life around work was easier, but these days, lots of stuff happens between meetings, on the way to meetings, bumping into people. Its easier to have 2 minute conversations face to face than scheduling bloody calls as people's diaries are a nightmare and you can never find the right person at the right time if you're not in the office.
Absolutely all of this - my boss is a massive fan of "hallway conversations" because they cut out a lot of the bullshit and you'll find stuff out you might otherwise not.
I think for me the 1-2 days per week in the office will be a decent balance. My daughter finishes high school this year which will change the work life thing signicantly. No more school fees for one thing, which isn't a huge burden but is a bunch of money we will be able to spend on something else.
My son is in his third year of Uni so potentially he's in the workforce next year.... which reminds me: I need to grump about something else...
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I'm in three days a week, Tues-Thurs. I'm in a department of one in a relatively small company, the only person in our office I ever need to speak to is the boss. If he's not in then it's a little bit pointless, the water cooler chat with other people is fine enough but has no value professionally.
It's a largely pointless job shifting emails through the ether. About the third pointless email job I've worked. Pays well (too well if I'm honest), gets me home at 5:30 to see the kids, but there's not much there in terms of mental/physical stimulation.
Sometimes I wish I was a farmer or a builder, someone who delivers real value to the world. But then I realise that would actually entail hard work, something I've steadfastly avoided for all of my 36 years on earth.
So I make my peace with the pointlessness. Go home, hug my kids, watch some rugby. It's not all bad.
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Given my current situation as a solo dad to three boys aged 4, 6 and 11, being able to work remotely full time has been an absolute godsend. I'm not sure how I would have managed without it, other than very expensive child care / nanny arrangements. But I do miss going into the office and interacting with people face to face, before Covid I was 3 days in and 2 at home, which was a really good balance for me, so would like to return to something similar to that down the track, but it's not really an option right now.
