Current depth at 10
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the Blues of 2024 (and to a lessor extent the Bulls) are the anomaly i think. RMo. DMac. BB have been the standard for so long now.
The Reds won when they had Quaide
The Highlanders won with SopoagaThink back to Carlos, Mehrts, Larkham. Running and passing first 5s.
DC was the closest to a "game manager" but that's only because he was an absolute freak.
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@mariner4life said in Current depth at 10:
the Blues of 2024 (and to a lessor extent the Bulls) are the anomaly i think. RMo. DMac. BB have been the standard for so long now.
The Reds won when they had Quaide
The Highlanders won with SopoagaThink back to Carlos, Mehrts, Larkham. Running and passing first 5s.
DC was the closest to a "game manager" but that's only because he was an absolute freak.
Funny, I think of Merhts more as a passer kicker who could run.. He was picked over Carlos who was a run and gun first, game manager second.
I think DMac showed with the Chiefs that he could do both, but the ABs seem intent on making him create all of the play when he is at 10
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@canefan said in Current depth at 10:
@mariner4life said in Current depth at 10:
Super rugby success requires a run and gun 10 as well. Open fast footy played for the most part on hard tracks. If the comp dragged in to winter it might be different, but really you play on top of the ground with a heap of space. An adequate kicking game is required, but you win the comp with your legs and your passing game.
I disagree. Since DC that's what coaches think we need. The Blues won it all last season with Plummer, who played a more balanced pivot game. We need game managers, good decision makers who can allow their outsides time and space to work, with solid kicking games that can also run. Players like Plummer don't seem to be valued like I believe they should. DC has screwed up our thinking ever since
I don't see us beating South Africa, France, England and Ireland consistently if we try to play like the Blues with Plummer at 10. Their win was based on forwards dominating collisions in close, and I don't see us achieving that consistently against the top sides - certainly not without major personnel changes, and probably not at all.
McKenzie is the standout 10 in Super rugby. He's the guy we have who creates space for others, and he has a good boot, and his decision-making has come a long long way since his early days where he was just running in circles looking for a gap to use his freakish acceleration. He's by far our best - we just need to stick with him, and give him a bit of support - not overload him with 40,000 touches every week and then blame him when things go south in the last 10 minutes when he's knackered and no other fluffybunny has created anything all day. The management of him last year was fucking abysmal. He did so much good stuff early on and was growing into the role despite a fair bit of mediocrity around him, then he somehow got blamed for our poor finishes and put on the bench - which quelle surprise didn't fix our game but largely fixed our poor finishes because he's a better fucking player. Then he gets a shot to start against Ireland due to injury and is our best in our best game of the year, then he gets rewarded for that by being put back to the bench, and we lose again.
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Arguably Dan Carter was initially picked as a "run and gun" 10 who turned out to be a brilliant game manager and director too.
The expectation from Hansen and Foster was that Mo'unga's game would evolve in a similar manner, but it never happened.
We haven't had a First-Five who was primarily picked for game-management skills since Grant Fox. It's all been Run and Guns.
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The next two Rugby World Cups are going to be played probably on fast tracks: Australia in October/November 2027 and the USA (mostly sunshine states) in September/October 2031.
So developing run and gun 10s makes a lot of sense.
Hopefully, the refs will let things flow a bit more than the "stop-start-check the replay 50 times" nonsense we saw in France in 2023.
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@sparky said in Current depth at 10:
The next two Rugby World Cups are going to be played probably on fast tracks: Australia in October/November 2027 and the USA (mostly sunshine states) in September/October 2031.
So developing run and gun 10s makes a lot of sense.
Hopefully, the refs will let things flow a bit more than the "stop-start-check the replay 50 times" nonsense we saw in France in 2023.
I don't advocate returning to the days of Grant Fox. We tried running at all costs last year and watched the ABs run out of steam in the second half of several games. Having a strong tactical kicking game to go with a running attack will always be of benefit regardless of the conditions.
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@gt12 said in Current depth at 10:
@reprobate said in Current depth at 10:
@gt12 said in Current depth at 10:
@reprobate said in Current depth at 10:
@handa457 Anything that has as a benefit extending Beauden's playing career sounds a bit dubious to me, I'd knock 30 odd caps (at 10) off it if I could.
When has Perofeta ever locked down a starting spot at 10, at any level? He can't even demand that jersey for the 'naki and you think he should have more opportunities at AB level?Building depth is great, but spreading talent across the Super teams (which makes a lot of sense) needs to come first. Quality players on the bench or in the stands is just stupid, but you can't pick guys for the ABs who don't start in that position at the level below.
Whilst I might agree with this, historically, multiple AB coaching teams (and the current ones seem to be even worse with their Crusader bias) have been happy to select reserves (even beyond the 23 at times).
So, there is no reason for player migration to other teams unless the player is likely to see very very little time (e.g., outside backs).
If you are likely to see minutes off the bench, why move?
I don't feel like this thread is about AB 1st fives at all, it seems to be a moan about player distribution.
At 10 though? It's one thing to pick a prop who can scrum well and lift in a lineout off the bench, or a hooker who can throw accurately - but the core role at 10 is game management. How can you possibly judge that in a bench player: you never actually get to see them manage a game?
I’m not defending it, I’m pointing out that the AB coaches haven't cared if they judge the players to be a class above.
We had DC, Slade, and Taylor all make the ABs as 10s while at the Saders.
More recently, Barrett, Perofeta, Plummer at the Blues.
It’s not new.
Interesting you mention Slade because going into that 2011 RWC the cupboard was bare at 10 - well at least in Henry’s eyes. Slade had only a handful of tests under his belt (5) and was favoured over Donald, and an even more green Cruden.
There was talk of Toeava playing 10 and we ended up bringing those guys in after multiple injuries, plus using Weepu.
So on the issue of building depth, you can see why having those experienced guys has been a mainstay for coaches of the last quarter of a century.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Current depth at 10:
There was talk of Toeava playing 10 and we ended up bringing those guys in after multiple injuries, plus using Weepu.
Not so crazy in retrospect, Ice debued at 10 for Auckland if my memory/research is correct, scoring 2 tries!
Played there for Auckland and the Blues and then overseas...
Rugby: Blues gem Ice latest target - NZ Herald
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