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@antipodean at first I thought he was one of those roided up thugs that make the headlines from time to time killing some unsuspecting person with one punch . There's obviously a bit more to this case and I think he's genuinely trying to help the cops but I think they are drawing a long bow here.
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I sympathize with the police in these matters, because stupidity on the turps is so common, but it would be nice if we remembered that there can be a fine line between being careful and being wowsers, and that balance is key.
In other good news, Moko's killers got nowhere, as the Court of Appeal dismissed their appeals, while also noting that they were lucky to avoid sentences of life imprisonment. That's a good outcome as it gives direction for similar future cases where murder is difficult to prove but manslaughter is an option.
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From memory, the victim in that matter was being a bit of a knob, but not violent or aggressive. Just a bit mouthy. I'm not entirely sure it's ever justified punching some guy out just because he's being a bit lippy. Yes, we all think about doing it, but being a thug just because someone is being cheeky is never really on. You also run the risk that you do them serious injury or kill them.
The bit that rankled me in that article is "He partially blamed Asthana's death on late night opening hours, and said he had suffered the loss of his naval career, experience financial hardship, "as well as emotional scarring, guilt, depression and anxiety all as a result of my actions". "
Generally when you go to prison for killing someone you lose your career and therefore experience financial hardship. But at least you're not dead, like the guy you killed is. McFarland looks to be a big boy, and the victim doesn't look very big at all. When you hit someone in the head with that sort of mismatch, you absolutely roll the dice.
It's also a pretty long bow to draw to say that it's the late night opening hours. There were probably 3000 other people out drinking in the CBD that night as well, and very few of them decided to punch someone out over something so minor.
I agree with Godder's sentiments regarding the fine balancing act with liqour enforcement. While it is absolutely necessary in some places, the Ellerslie races is a perfect example of where they have gone overkill. Can't BYO anymore because glammed up girls and guys in suits got too drunk, (but didn't really cause any major trouble). Yet still, the fun police decide they're gonna do something about it, even in the absence of any real violence or disorder (I did lock a guy up there once who was too drunk to notice my car was an unmarked CIB car and kicked it when I honked at him to get off the road, leaving a pretty good dent. But that's another story)
When I was frontline, or worked special events (RWC etc), I was never a fan of locking people up solely for breach of liquor ban etc. I agree that the bans are in place for all the right reasons - not just to stop people taking a heap of cheap piss into town and preloading before going into licenced premises. But also to stop drunk people carrying glass bottles (potential weapons) around town and generally just milling in the street drinking.
In general, they have been quite good for reducing disorder in hotspots. That said, in my past life, I'd had mates locked up for the relatively minor offence of carrying a half empty bottle of lion red from a taxi to the nearest bin outside a nightclub and it's pretty shithouse and not a good look for the cops in the eye of the average citizen. I used to deal with liquor ban breaches either by making people tip it out, leave the area with it (if they had heaps of booze in a car and I didn't want make them waste it) or else my favourite of telling them that I was just gonna go and write in my notebook and if the alcohol was gone by the time I turned back around that they'd be all good, however they disposed of it. I'd then sit in the car and chuckle at a bunch of 18 year olds trying to knock back beers so they wouldn't get poured out. Obviously used in only the right circumstances where the guys weren't already hammered, and weren't causing problems, but always hilarious.
My reasoning was that it was far better enforcement than just being a fluffybunny and locking them up and wasting my time and them ending up with a conviction for something stupidly minor. That said, it was a massive attitude test as well. If they decided they wanted to be a cock, then I enforced the law, because chances were that they were gonna be a cock later on and we'd end up dealing with them then.
Since those times though the balance of enforcement has shifted with liquor ban enforcement and it's now a case of locking people up is only the very last resort, as opposed to where it used to be the first resort, which is absolutely the right move.
At the end of the day, alcohol does a huge amount of social harm, so enforcement is absolutely necessary, but as Godder mentioned, it's quite a balancing act to do it. A huge percentage of frontline lock ups are alcohol related, but it's also unfair to penalise those who can use it responsibly, just because a minority can't.
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@aucklandwarlord said in NZ justice system 2.0:
From memory, the victim in that matter was being a bit of a knob, but not violent or aggressive. Just a bit mouthy. I'm not entirely sure it's ever justified punching some guy out just because he's being a bit lippy.
Ahh, he assaulted a woman first, then got punched for it.
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Fair enough, I stand corrected! I wrote my reply before I read the article and was just going from memory of the event.
"He continued to pester the woman, and on the way out of the restaurant Asthana smacked the woman on the bottom."
He slapped a girl on the ass and got king hit in the head by a guy twice his size for his troubles. An indecent assault, yes. A technical assault, yes. But certainly not smashing a woman around as the term "assaulted" implies. It hardly made him a threat, nor would you term it aggressive - more sleazy and rapey.
Don't get me wrong, I in no way condone the former. I just don't really feel its one that warrants smacking someone's lights out with a single hit. Grab him by the scruff of the shirt for sure, but trying to be a one punch hero only ever leads to trouble.
Obviously McFarland couldn't have known that the guy would end up dead, but if you punch a much smaller drunk guy in the head and you're playing with fire. Hence, I don't really feel sorry for McFarland, he did kill the guy after all. And any feeling of sympathy I might have had quickly evaporated when he lamented losing his career and being in financial hardship after spending only about 18 months inside for killing a guy. He should count himself lucky he's not doing 6 - 8 years inside, which would seemingly be a much more appropriate sentence IMHO.
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@aucklandwarlord I'm not going to get drawn into which assaults should be ignored and which shouldn't, but he was clearly a piston wristed gibbon who decided that he could assault a female. It also had the worrying signs of an escalation over the evening from the deceased - as you said; "rapey". I certainly wouldn't stand by if he did that to a friend of mine or particularly my wife.
For all that McFarland shouldn't have responded in the manner he did, the entire incident was one of Asthana's making. Perhaps if he had received fatal beatings* earlier in his life, he might still be alive now...
I also don't see why people who are efficient should be penalised. How is one punch worse than a couple?
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@antipodean said in NZ justice system 2.0:
@aucklandwarlord I'm not going to get drawn into which assaults should be ignored and which shouldn't, but he was clearly a piston wristed gibbon who decided that he could assault a female. It also had the worrying signs of an escalation over the evening from the deceased - as you said; "rapey". I certainly wouldn't stand by if he did that to a friend of mine or particularly my wife.
Nor would I, but I guess it would just depend on how our responses might differ in that situation. When I was in the job I used to get my ass slapped all the time, generally by drunk white girls (and occasionally guys) when we were doing pub visits or dealing with jobs.
By your logic, it would have been okay for my female colleagues or some offended bystander to throw a punch to teach them a lesson? While you're absolutely right, it was of his own making, I'd say you could find two hundred drunk cocks in the viaduct on any given night behaving in exactly the same manner.
I've dealt with so many one punch knockouts that have resulted in serious injury or worse that throwing a punch doesn't even cross my mind anymore unless I was being physically threatened or already attacked. I'm also a pretty big boy (6 foot 7, 110kg), so it's a definite factor in my mind that if I hit someone, I could fairly well do them some damage. I'd imagine McFarland was aware of his own size and strength or should have known, and was probably no stranger to a gym, just from looking at him.
The king hit killings in Australia have been fairly well publicised over the last decade. It's hard to argue anymore that people don't realise that they can kill someone with one punch.
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@aucklandwarlord I agree that there's no excuse for not knowing the possible outcome, the problem is the combination of continued escalation and associated irritation with the level of alcohol reduces the capacity for problem-solving. Given those inputs people tend to resort to the fight or flight response.
Quite frankly if I was a female cop and someone slapped me on the arse, I'd ruin their night; charge them and lock them up. Otherwise, it breeds contempt.
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@antipodean I dealt with a guy once who had previously been arrested and charged with indecent assault for grabbing a female cop's ass in the processing area. He got quite a hefty sentence for it as well, something like 8 or 9 months inside. To be fair, he had an atrocious criminal record, but it's not unheard of.
Meanwhile, girls on hens nights and 45 year old cougars stinking of alcohol and cigarettes on girls nights out grab male cop's asses as they please with no further consequences. Who says society is equal haha
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I think the disparity is based on perceived danger. An ass pinching from a woman may not be welcome but you're not going to feel particularly threatened unless you are a minor. I've been to the odd gay club before and received unwanted attention but again the logical part of my brain has kicked in and said I'm in their environment, take it as a compliment and sidle away. Uncomfortable as all hell but not really physically threatening...prison showers might be a different story though...
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@aucklandwarlord said in NZ justice system 2.0:
@antipodean I dealt with a guy once who had previously been arrested and charged with indecent assault for grabbing a female cop's ass in the processing area. He got quite a hefty sentence for it as well, something like 8 or 9 months inside. To be fair, he had an atrocious criminal record, but it's not unheard of.
Meanwhile, girls on hens nights and 45 year old cougars stinking of alcohol and cigarettes on girls nights out grab male cop's asses as they please with no further consequences. Who says society is equal haha
That's part of the price we pay for living in a man's world
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@canefan I wonder if that is an accurate statement anymore. We have a number of female world leaders, women out preforming men in education and increasing evidence that the paygap may have actually been resolved at least in western countries. There will always be a physical disparity but modern laws now in regard to intimidation and assault should mitigate that somewhat.
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@canefan said in NZ justice system 2.0:
@aucklandwarlord said in NZ justice system 2.0:
@antipodean I dealt with a guy once who had previously been arrested and charged with indecent assault for grabbing a female cop's ass in the processing area. He got quite a hefty sentence for it as well, something like 8 or 9 months inside. To be fair, he had an atrocious criminal record, but it's not unheard of.
Meanwhile, girls on hens nights and 45 year old cougars stinking of alcohol and cigarettes on girls nights out grab male cop's asses as they please with no further consequences. Who says society is equal haha
That's part of the price we pay for living in a man's world
I suppose I needed to add a sarcasm emoji
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This story makes me so fucking mad.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11820070
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@Mokey said in NZ justice system 2.0:
This story makes me so fucking mad.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11820070
Case for forced sterilisation exhibit A
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@Tregaskis said in NZ justice system 2.0:
Literally the only thing she is good at is breeding.
Pretty low bar give how easy it would be for her to get pregnant...
As above, feel for the kids, but unfortunately there are a lot in that life cycle, grow up seeing their folks collecting benefits, easy for them to fall into the trap of following the family tradition.
Our old neighbours were like that, neither parent worked, so they partied any and all hours of the day, their kids having kids, making the whanau that lived there bigger, more noise, more hangers on...good times.
NZ justice system 2.0