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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Gender Studies:
Why the heck is this film being associatedwith the alt right????
Every single thing the far left doesnt like nowdays seems to be linked to this fanciful 'alt right'. Neo cons used to the far left bogey man.... then neo liberals.... now it this alt right thing.... what next the neo alt right?
After seeing some of false information spread about people in the film, I am skeptical of any 'articles' or claims about them. I will judge them on what I hear them say, not what feminists say they said.One of the most depressing aspects was how far the feminists portrayed in the film have moved away from the important (at least in my opinion) work of the originals. To see Erin Pizzey tell her story was quite disturbing. To hear that a woman who dedicated her life and work to helping women - not by gassing about privilege, but by getting out there and starting the Refuge movement - regularly gets death threats now because she dared suggest that many of the women she deals with are equally capable of violence as men, is a bizarre betrayal of humanity.
And as for the piece of work "Big Red", what a disgrace she was. Dim and aggressive just for the fun of it, safe in the knowledge she'll probably get away with her behaviour where a man doing the same would rightly get called out as a bully and a thug. You'll know the one I mean @Baron-Silas-Greenback, she whose sole contribution to a reasonable debate was to stand 6 inches from the speakers face and shout "Shut the fuck up". This one:
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@JC said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia Well, speaking as one of those who have seen the film, the choice of name is alluded to by Jaye herself. And yes, it is about the whole Matrix red pill / blue pill thing.
I understand the argument that the name might reduce the credibility of the film. I'd counter it by asking amongst what group?
The answer might be partially found in the film itself, because one of the issues that comes through strongly is how close-minded the orthodox left are in the face of even the suggestion of men's rights or grievances. I think if we're honest the name of the film isn't going to make any difference to them; their minds are well and truly made up. Or at least that's the premise of the film.
Of course the many people she interviewed may not have been representative of the academic, political and media classes as a whole, maybe she just lucked out in that all the opposing voices she interviewed came across as the type of smug, condescending, and often aggressive piston wristed gibbons she hoped for in order to make a compelling film. Or maybe the men's rights people are right, and the smug piston wristed gibbons are indeed representative.
I said in the movie thread when I saw the film that some of the men's rights people in it are not the nicest of people if you bother to google them. However just because the messenger may be flawed doesn't mean the message is. And it was remarkable how many of the interviewees were completely dismissive of any of the arguments without actually ever having listened to them.
I'll be interested to see what you think when you've seen it. It's on Amazon Prime Video, iTunes Uk and US. Not iTunes NZ though, I don't know why that is.
By anyone who had previously heard of TheRedPill prior to the film or anyone who thinks "wtf is TheRedPill", googles it, and then wonders why the first page is littered with results regarding misogyny. Or perhaps they go to the TRP subreddit and wonder why its discussing "Sexual Strategy" - how does that play into Mens Rights?
The thing that grates is that the film covers some really important topics. That the film maker chose to follow TRP knowing they had a controversial history that pits them against their gendered opposites introduces an unnecessary conflict that contributes to the impeded penetration of the movies message. It'd be like doing a movie on the challenges facing Muslims and following al-Jama'a al-Islamiyya around.
I hope to watch it with the Mrs in the next week or so. We just started watching American Gods so thats getting our viewing time at the moment
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rembrandt said in Gender Studies:
The red pill and its opposite, the blue pill, are popular cultural symbols representing the choice between: Knowledge, freedom and the (sometimes painful) truth of reality (red pill) Falsehood, security and the blissful ignorance of illusion (blue pill)
Works for me.
So what is the alt-right then exactly? From what Ive read it covers anyone from Hitler to anyone who happens to even slightly disagree with something from the left.
See, names matter. Rather than alt-right, they should call themselves "Angry white man justice keyboard warriors" (again, borrowing their online vernacular). They see themselves as some kind of antithesis to the SJW of the left which has unwittingly exposed them to the same derision and ignominy.
Hey, does anyone here consider themselves alt-right?
I still can't believe that you think the name of this film has somehow impacted on how it has been received in Australia. You honestly think that there would be zero controversy if she'd simply called it "Men and women" or "Men have problems"?
BTW I did a Google search. In addition to the definition provided by the Dutch Master, there was also this from Urban Dictionary:
'Red pill' has become a popular phrase among cyberculture and signifies a free-thinking attitude, and a waking up from a "normal" life of sloth and ignorance. Red pills prefer the truth, no matter how gritty and painful it may be."
Seems like a pretty apt title to me, particularly as the filmmaker had to challenge her own biases and worldview.
I didn't make that claim so I'm not going to rebut your argument.
When I googled TheRedPill, I got 6 links concerning the insalubrious side of TRP, 2 links to the movie, 1 link to their reddit forum & 1 link to urban dictionary.
Also, I now know that it was created by a former Republican representative. Despite being his own creation, he tried to distance himself from initially so it seems its toxicity was not lost on him. He ended up resigning after his identity was made public.
You claimed that the name meant the film couldn't be taken seriously and that "most people" would connect it to some obscure term used by the alt-right. I respectfully disagree and am also unsure what this has to do with the discussion, which was principally about how this film has been received in Australia. Unless of course you do think that the "outcry" is because of the name and not the actual content of the film.
Cmon mate, you're strawmanning too. I didnt say it couldnt be taken seriously, I said it robbed it of credibility, not ALL credibility. Yes I think it was a factor however I did not make any claim that there would be zero controversy were it named something else.
BTW, TheRedPill is not an obscure Alt-Right term. TheRedPill started off as a pick up artist whoops I mean sexual strategy forum, its alleged at some point Alt-Right followers started to onboard TRP followers and apparently there is now a TheRedPillRight. TRP originally cited the Matrix as the origin of its name.
What are you talking about? Most people have never heard of Alt-right, let alone the red pill and yet you claim using this name has had a detrimental effect on the film? That's just complete bollocks. This film is "controversial" because of the content not the bloody name.
I never said the content wasnt controversial and I never said alt-right was widely known.
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@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@JC said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia Well, speaking as one of those who have seen the film, the choice of name is alluded to by Jaye herself. And yes, it is about the whole Matrix red pill / blue pill thing.
I understand the argument that the name might reduce the credibility of the film. I'd counter it by asking amongst what group?
The answer might be partially found in the film itself, because one of the issues that comes through strongly is how close-minded the orthodox left are in the face of even the suggestion of men's rights or grievances. I think if we're honest the name of the film isn't going to make any difference to them; their minds are well and truly made up. Or at least that's the premise of the film.
Of course the many people she interviewed may not have been representative of the academic, political and media classes as a whole, maybe she just lucked out in that all the opposing voices she interviewed came across as the type of smug, condescending, and often aggressive piston wristed gibbons she hoped for in order to make a compelling film. Or maybe the men's rights people are right, and the smug piston wristed gibbons are indeed representative.
I said in the movie thread when I saw the film that some of the men's rights people in it are not the nicest of people if you bother to google them. However just because the messenger may be flawed doesn't mean the message is. And it was remarkable how many of the interviewees were completely dismissive of any of the arguments without actually ever having listened to them.
I'll be interested to see what you think when you've seen it. It's on Amazon Prime Video, iTunes Uk and US. Not iTunes NZ though, I don't know why that is.
By anyone who had previously heard of TheRedPill prior to the film or anyone who thinks "wtf is TheRedPill", googles it, and then wonders why the first page is littered with results regarding misogyny. Or perhaps they go to the TRP subreddit and wonder why its discussing "Sexual Strategy" - how does that play into Mens Rights?
The thing that grates is that the film covers some really important topics. That the film maker chose to follow TRP knowing they had a controversial history that pits them against their gendered opposites introduces an unnecessary conflict that contributes to the impeded penetration of the movies message. It'd be like doing a movie on the challenges facing Muslims and following al-Jama'a al-Islamiyya around.
I hope to watch it with the Mrs in the next week or so. We just started watching American Gods so thats getting our viewing time at the moment
Sorry how did the film maker follow TRP??
If you hadn't already admitted not watching the film, you just made it obvious. Dont comment on what is in the film until you have watched it. Because quite honestly your comments on the content of the film are laughable."Unnecessary conflict that contributes to the impeded penetration of the movies message"??? WTF???
How can you remotely assess that without seeing the film?? And how exactly does it grate you when you havent seen it?? -
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rembrandt said in Gender Studies:
The red pill and its opposite, the blue pill, are popular cultural symbols representing the choice between: Knowledge, freedom and the (sometimes painful) truth of reality (red pill) Falsehood, security and the blissful ignorance of illusion (blue pill)
Works for me.
So what is the alt-right then exactly? From what Ive read it covers anyone from Hitler to anyone who happens to even slightly disagree with something from the left.
See, names matter. Rather than alt-right, they should call themselves "Angry white man justice keyboard warriors" (again, borrowing their online vernacular). They see themselves as some kind of antithesis to the SJW of the left which has unwittingly exposed them to the same derision and ignominy.
Hey, does anyone here consider themselves alt-right?
I still can't believe that you think the name of this film has somehow impacted on how it has been received in Australia. You honestly think that there would be zero controversy if she'd simply called it "Men and women" or "Men have problems"?
BTW I did a Google search. In addition to the definition provided by the Dutch Master, there was also this from Urban Dictionary:
'Red pill' has become a popular phrase among cyberculture and signifies a free-thinking attitude, and a waking up from a "normal" life of sloth and ignorance. Red pills prefer the truth, no matter how gritty and painful it may be."
Seems like a pretty apt title to me, particularly as the filmmaker had to challenge her own biases and worldview.
I didn't make that claim so I'm not going to rebut your argument.
When I googled TheRedPill, I got 6 links concerning the insalubrious side of TRP, 2 links to the movie, 1 link to their reddit forum & 1 link to urban dictionary.
Also, I now know that it was created by a former Republican representative. Despite being his own creation, he tried to distance himself from initially so it seems its toxicity was not lost on him. He ended up resigning after his identity was made public.
You claimed that the name meant the film couldn't be taken seriously and that "most people" would connect it to some obscure term used by the alt-right. I respectfully disagree and am also unsure what this has to do with the discussion, which was principally about how this film has been received in Australia. Unless of course you do think that the "outcry" is because of the name and not the actual content of the film.
Cmon mate, you're strawmanning too. I didnt say it couldnt be taken seriously, I said it robbed it of credibility, not ALL credibility. Yes I think it was a factor however I did not make any claim that there would be zero controversy were it named something else.
BTW, TheRedPill is not an obscure Alt-Right term. TheRedPill started off as a pick up artist whoops I mean sexual strategy forum, its alleged at some point Alt-Right followers started to onboard TRP followers and apparently there is now a TheRedPillRight. TRP originally cited the Matrix as the origin of its name.
What are you talking about? Most people have never heard of Alt-right, let alone the red pill and yet you claim using this name has had a detrimental effect on the film? That's just complete bollocks. This film is "controversial" because of the content not the bloody name.
I never said the content wasnt controversial and I never said alt-right was widely known.
The alt right has nothing to do with it... that is just a bizarre straw man you introduced.
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@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@No-Quarter said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
Calling her movie The Red Pill was a bad move, for many it instantly robbed it of any credibility because most people associate it with pick up artist douchery, not mens rights.
Most people, i.e. you.
No, most people that have ever heard of them.
They've gained notoriety in the past for seriously discussing stuff like "Women want to be raped" or "The case for legalising rape".
From recollection, theres some cross over with the Alt Right but Im not sure how.
But in case you are of the belief that they are about Mens Rights and not Picking Up women, dont take my word for it, take theirs:
"The Red Pill: Discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men."I'd never heard of them so the name was pretty meaningless to me.
Cassie Jaye said she did ask them about the comments to do with rape, and said that a) those comments were taken out of context and were largely explainable and b) she chose not to include them in this movie as anything to do with rape is a massive rabbit hole that would require it's own movie.
I don't know the context so won't comment on them, but as with anything context is critical. And in my experience with SJWs/Feminists they absolutely love to take statements out of context to smear people they disagree with politically.
Check it out for yourself and see what you think. Ask women what they think.
I haven't watched the movie yet. Thing is, I totally agree that there are problems that are unique to men, I just argue the naming of the movie was a bad choice. It instantly aligns itself with the Alt Right and if one wants to be taken seriously, that's not a great start.Ask women what they think? What good would that do? I could ask two woman and get two completely different answers. Woman aren't completely homogenous, I really dislike when a groupthink mentalilty is assigned to people based on biological features like gender or race, it's nonsensical in the real world.
Anyway when I google "The Red Pill" I get a bunch of links about the movie and a reddit page with a handful of followers talking about a variety of stuff of little interest to me. So didn't really learn much there and don't have much motivation to look further right now...
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@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
I haven't watched the movie yet.
OKay, so the rest of us should shut up and defer to the expert.
I just argue the naming of the movie was a bad choice.
One of the main subjects interviewed in the film is mens rights activist Paul Elam, the President & Founder of an organization called A Voice For Men.
Elam is quoted directly in the film. He says, "THE RED PILL is about looking at these issues in an honest way, even when it's uncomfortable."
This is the language the mens movement themselves make and explained in as simple and concise a term as possible. The filmmaker is walking through and exploring that as a part of her documentary process -- to look at these issues in an honest way even when it's uncomfortable. She's taken the Red Pill.
You can see him say that exact quote in an extended trailer from the film, at the 7:33-mark.
Get out of your comfort zone and watch the film before throwing uninformed brickbats. You sarcastically-condescendingly told others about people not "using the internet to look up stuff they don't know," accusing them of "probably continuing to think that way" and then demonstrate precisely the same ignorance, with the slight difference that yours comes with a bit mo' egg on your face..
It instantly aligns itself with the Alt Right and if one wants to be taken seriously, that's not a great start.
If people want to be taken seriously, they might consider refraining from comments made in ignorance about things they haven't even seen.
Ear-muffs, kids.
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I'm now half way through it, so my opinion may change, but so far I'm not really very impressed with the premise of the men's rights movement as expressed so far.
It's a great review of the ways in which men suffer disproportionally, but I can't buy the premise that men are actually oppressed - I don't see any evidence presented to show that any of these shitty things about life have been put upon men. Having to do shitty things to survive is life, not oppression. These bitches just look like pussies to me if they are claiming that they are oppressed. And, if that's not the premise of the movement, why is it a men's 'rights' movement? In that case it's just a 'men's support club' which we can all get behind.
That's not to say that the movie (so far) hasn't highlighted a bunch of important issues about male health, psychology, and role in society - it's just to say that the premise of men being oppressed by society is a bridge too far for me. And even if men are oppressed, they're oppressed by other men.
I'm happy to admit that life sucks, and I'd love it if people recognized that I'm under pressure to be a provider - but that's got nothing to do with me being oppressed. I chose to get married and that was part of the discussion.
Anyway, that's my feeling. It may change by the time I finish it.
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@gt12 do you think women in western countries are actually oppressed as it stands today? Or do you think they are just facing similar (but different) issues to men in terms of life/nature/survival (for example, having kids forcing them to take time off work, impacting their earning potential). Woman having the role of bearing children makes their lives incredibly complicated - but that's not oppression, that's just one of the many challenges of life.
At work now so can't look it up but there's a great clip of Jordan Peterson talking about being oppressed, where he says basically anyone anywhere can point to any number of things and claim to be oppressed by them. And they'd be correct - life is hard. Everyone is a victim of something, but instead of letting the negative hold you down and define you, the only way forward is to rise up under the weight of it and be the best person you can be. Will link it tonight.
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Good point. In Western countries, not so much, although power is still disproportionately held by men - and the systems of government, etc. etc. we're primarily designed by men. However, overall I think your point about equality of opportunity is mostly true - particularly in NZ, which I'm super proud of being from.
However, that's not the whole world. Here in Japan, the leader of the country (Emperor) is still not legally allowed to be a women, despite the irony that emperors are meant to be descendants of Amaterasu (the 'goddess' of the sun and universe) - but no women leaders of course.
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Yeah, men still make up the majority when we talk about positions of power. But as equality of opportunity exists, you have to start looking at other reasons as to why that may be - policies that try to enforce equality of outcome are fundamentally flawed and incredibly damaging to society. For one, who chooses the characteristics that require equity - is it gender? race? sexuality? hair colour? height? eye colour? the options are limitless right down to the individual. And two - there are often genuine, explainable reasons as to why there is not an equal representation in particular fields or positions - trying to change that from the top down can be very damaging to people and society, and will often encroach on people's freedom.
When we talk about positions of power, it's not black and white, not even close. Holding those positions is no walk in the park - you have to display very particular psychological characteristics to even want to hold a position like that. The image of the rich white man with his feet up on the table smoking a cigar is nothing like reality - these people absolutely live their jobs. The first thing they do when they wake up is work, and the last thing they do when they go to bed is work. They also have to display characteristics that mean, for example, they have no issue being hated - as Jordan Peterson says (don't want to keep referencing him but he's an expert in this field) you have to be far less "agreeable" to even want a job like that, and it's a wonder there is anybody that does.
And when you look at differences between men and woman, it becomes clear that there are far more men that display those characteristics then there are women. And these aren't subtle differences, they are significant and driven by biology. For example Law firms are absolutely falling over themselves to try and keep woman past the age of 30 - but they are failing, as a lot of women when they hit that age start to question what is important to them in life - and having a family rather then dedicating themselves to being partner at a Law firm take priority. And that's not a bad thing - having a family is one of the best things anyone can do. As I said, life is complicated for woman now that they are part of the workforce - but that's got nothing to do with perceived oppression. Those Law firms are market-driven to the core.
I find this stuff fascinating, and love to have honest debate about it - however that discussion is being poisoned by Identity politics and people pushing for equality of outcome, with more and more businesses (and governments) trying to implement incredibly damaging quotas based on gender or race, with 0 understanding of the issues at play.
You are bang on about non-Western countries though. There is still widespread oppression of women in a large number of countries - particularly places like the Middle East. If Feminists want to focus on something worthwhile, they'd do well to stop hating on the most fair and affluent societies and start putting their efforts into helping women that face real oppression every day.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@JC said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia Well, speaking as one of those who have seen the film, the choice of name is alluded to by Jaye herself. And yes, it is about the whole Matrix red pill / blue pill thing.
I understand the argument that the name might reduce the credibility of the film. I'd counter it by asking amongst what group?
The answer might be partially found in the film itself, because one of the issues that comes through strongly is how close-minded the orthodox left are in the face of even the suggestion of men's rights or grievances. I think if we're honest the name of the film isn't going to make any difference to them; their minds are well and truly made up. Or at least that's the premise of the film.
Of course the many people she interviewed may not have been representative of the academic, political and media classes as a whole, maybe she just lucked out in that all the opposing voices she interviewed came across as the type of smug, condescending, and often aggressive piston wristed gibbons she hoped for in order to make a compelling film. Or maybe the men's rights people are right, and the smug piston wristed gibbons are indeed representative.
I said in the movie thread when I saw the film that some of the men's rights people in it are not the nicest of people if you bother to google them. However just because the messenger may be flawed doesn't mean the message is. And it was remarkable how many of the interviewees were completely dismissive of any of the arguments without actually ever having listened to them.
I'll be interested to see what you think when you've seen it. It's on Amazon Prime Video, iTunes Uk and US. Not iTunes NZ though, I don't know why that is.
By anyone who had previously heard of TheRedPill prior to the film or anyone who thinks "wtf is TheRedPill", googles it, and then wonders why the first page is littered with results regarding misogyny. Or perhaps they go to the TRP subreddit and wonder why its discussing "Sexual Strategy" - how does that play into Mens Rights?
The thing that grates is that the film covers some really important topics. That the film maker chose to follow TRP knowing they had a controversial history that pits them against their gendered opposites introduces an unnecessary conflict that contributes to the impeded penetration of the movies message. It'd be like doing a movie on the challenges facing Muslims and following al-Jama'a al-Islamiyya around.
I hope to watch it with the Mrs in the next week or so. We just started watching American Gods so thats getting our viewing time at the moment
Sorry how did the film maker follow TRP??
If you hadn't already admitted not watching the film, you just made it obvious. Dont comment on what is in the film until you have watched it. Because quite honestly your comments on the content of the film are laughable."Unnecessary conflict that contributes to the impeded penetration of the movies message"??? WTF???
How can you remotely assess that without seeing the film?? And how exactly does it grate you when you havent seen it??I'll continue to comment on what I like thanks and I welcome you to do the same. By all means, call me out for not having watched it (yet) but that doesnt mean my points are not valid because I can read and understand (or "remotely assess", if you will) details of the movie without having watched it. For example, I know it stars Paul Elam, who is infamous for being considered a rape apologist and also happens to run The Red Pill Shop. If the aim is to raise awareness and push forward on progress for issues concerning men, featuring a person like Elam is only going to work against this goal. Thats what grates - I think awareness absolutely needs to be raised (do you agree ?). I want the discussions however the messenger matters and a disreputed messenger does no one any favours.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rembrandt said in Gender Studies:
The red pill and its opposite, the blue pill, are popular cultural symbols representing the choice between: Knowledge, freedom and the (sometimes painful) truth of reality (red pill) Falsehood, security and the blissful ignorance of illusion (blue pill)
Works for me.
So what is the alt-right then exactly? From what Ive read it covers anyone from Hitler to anyone who happens to even slightly disagree with something from the left.
See, names matter. Rather than alt-right, they should call themselves "Angry white man justice keyboard warriors" (again, borrowing their online vernacular). They see themselves as some kind of antithesis to the SJW of the left which has unwittingly exposed them to the same derision and ignominy.
Hey, does anyone here consider themselves alt-right?
I still can't believe that you think the name of this film has somehow impacted on how it has been received in Australia. You honestly think that there would be zero controversy if she'd simply called it "Men and women" or "Men have problems"?
BTW I did a Google search. In addition to the definition provided by the Dutch Master, there was also this from Urban Dictionary:
'Red pill' has become a popular phrase among cyberculture and signifies a free-thinking attitude, and a waking up from a "normal" life of sloth and ignorance. Red pills prefer the truth, no matter how gritty and painful it may be."
Seems like a pretty apt title to me, particularly as the filmmaker had to challenge her own biases and worldview.
I didn't make that claim so I'm not going to rebut your argument.
When I googled TheRedPill, I got 6 links concerning the insalubrious side of TRP, 2 links to the movie, 1 link to their reddit forum & 1 link to urban dictionary.
Also, I now know that it was created by a former Republican representative. Despite being his own creation, he tried to distance himself from initially so it seems its toxicity was not lost on him. He ended up resigning after his identity was made public.
You claimed that the name meant the film couldn't be taken seriously and that "most people" would connect it to some obscure term used by the alt-right. I respectfully disagree and am also unsure what this has to do with the discussion, which was principally about how this film has been received in Australia. Unless of course you do think that the "outcry" is because of the name and not the actual content of the film.
Cmon mate, you're strawmanning too. I didnt say it couldnt be taken seriously, I said it robbed it of credibility, not ALL credibility. Yes I think it was a factor however I did not make any claim that there would be zero controversy were it named something else.
BTW, TheRedPill is not an obscure Alt-Right term. TheRedPill started off as a pick up artist whoops I mean sexual strategy forum, its alleged at some point Alt-Right followers started to onboard TRP followers and apparently there is now a TheRedPillRight. TRP originally cited the Matrix as the origin of its name.
What are you talking about? Most people have never heard of Alt-right, let alone the red pill and yet you claim using this name has had a detrimental effect on the film? That's just complete bollocks. This film is "controversial" because of the content not the bloody name.
I never said the content wasnt controversial and I never said alt-right was widely known.
The alt right has nothing to do with it... that is just a bizarre straw man you introduced.
You dont seem to understand what a strawman is. Yes I raised that the alt-right have some history with TRP but I did not misrepresent anyone elses argument in order to make it weaker.
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@No-Quarter said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@No-Quarter said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
Calling her movie The Red Pill was a bad move, for many it instantly robbed it of any credibility because most people associate it with pick up artist douchery, not mens rights.
Most people, i.e. you.
No, most people that have ever heard of them.
They've gained notoriety in the past for seriously discussing stuff like "Women want to be raped" or "The case for legalising rape".
From recollection, theres some cross over with the Alt Right but Im not sure how.
But in case you are of the belief that they are about Mens Rights and not Picking Up women, dont take my word for it, take theirs:
"The Red Pill: Discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men."I'd never heard of them so the name was pretty meaningless to me.
Cassie Jaye said she did ask them about the comments to do with rape, and said that a) those comments were taken out of context and were largely explainable and b) she chose not to include them in this movie as anything to do with rape is a massive rabbit hole that would require it's own movie.
I don't know the context so won't comment on them, but as with anything context is critical. And in my experience with SJWs/Feminists they absolutely love to take statements out of context to smear people they disagree with politically.
Check it out for yourself and see what you think. Ask women what they think.
I haven't watched the movie yet. Thing is, I totally agree that there are problems that are unique to men, I just argue the naming of the movie was a bad choice. It instantly aligns itself with the Alt Right and if one wants to be taken seriously, that's not a great start.Ask women what they think? What good would that do? I could ask two woman and get two completely different answers. Woman aren't completely homogenous, I really dislike when a groupthink mentalilty is assigned to people based on biological features like gender or race, it's nonsensical in the real world.
Anyway when I google "The Red Pill" I get a bunch of links about the movie and a reddit page with a handful of followers talking about a variety of stuff of little interest to me. So didn't really learn much there and don't have much motivation to look further right now...
I believe its a good idea to seek out people who are likely to harbour differing views and I thought you might too. No one suggested all women think the same (?!).
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@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@JC said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia Well, speaking as one of those who have seen the film, the choice of name is alluded to by Jaye herself. And yes, it is about the whole Matrix red pill / blue pill thing.
I understand the argument that the name might reduce the credibility of the film. I'd counter it by asking amongst what group?
The answer might be partially found in the film itself, because one of the issues that comes through strongly is how close-minded the orthodox left are in the face of even the suggestion of men's rights or grievances. I think if we're honest the name of the film isn't going to make any difference to them; their minds are well and truly made up. Or at least that's the premise of the film.
Of course the many people she interviewed may not have been representative of the academic, political and media classes as a whole, maybe she just lucked out in that all the opposing voices she interviewed came across as the type of smug, condescending, and often aggressive piston wristed gibbons she hoped for in order to make a compelling film. Or maybe the men's rights people are right, and the smug piston wristed gibbons are indeed representative.
I said in the movie thread when I saw the film that some of the men's rights people in it are not the nicest of people if you bother to google them. However just because the messenger may be flawed doesn't mean the message is. And it was remarkable how many of the interviewees were completely dismissive of any of the arguments without actually ever having listened to them.
I'll be interested to see what you think when you've seen it. It's on Amazon Prime Video, iTunes Uk and US. Not iTunes NZ though, I don't know why that is.
By anyone who had previously heard of TheRedPill prior to the film or anyone who thinks "wtf is TheRedPill", googles it, and then wonders why the first page is littered with results regarding misogyny. Or perhaps they go to the TRP subreddit and wonder why its discussing "Sexual Strategy" - how does that play into Mens Rights?
The thing that grates is that the film covers some really important topics. That the film maker chose to follow TRP knowing they had a controversial history that pits them against their gendered opposites introduces an unnecessary conflict that contributes to the impeded penetration of the movies message. It'd be like doing a movie on the challenges facing Muslims and following al-Jama'a al-Islamiyya around.
I hope to watch it with the Mrs in the next week or so. We just started watching American Gods so thats getting our viewing time at the moment
Sorry how did the film maker follow TRP??
If you hadn't already admitted not watching the film, you just made it obvious. Dont comment on what is in the film until you have watched it. Because quite honestly your comments on the content of the film are laughable."Unnecessary conflict that contributes to the impeded penetration of the movies message"??? WTF???
How can you remotely assess that without seeing the film?? And how exactly does it grate you when you havent seen it??I'll continue to comment on what I like thanks and I welcome you to do the same. By all means, call me out for not having watched it (yet) but that doesnt mean my points are not valid because I can read and understand (or "remotely assess", if you will) details of the movie without having watched it. For example, I know it stars Paul Elam, who is infamous for being considered a rape apologist and also happens to run The Red Pill Shop. If the aim is to raise awareness and push forward on progress for issues concerning men, featuring a person like Elam is only going to work against this goal. That's what grates - I think awareness absolutely needs to be raised (do you agree ?). I want the discussions however the messenger matters and a disreputed messenger does no one any favours.
Apology not accepted.
You continue to comment via unsubstantiated and plain wrong claims.. you will continue to be told you are ignorant and wrong. I am not calling you our for not watching the film I calling you out for being full of shite when you try to tell others (who have seen the film) what is in the film.I will ask again .. how does the film follow around TRP?
You say you want the messenger to matter... yet here you are spreading lies about the message... or at the least being willfully ignorant of the message.
You claimed the movie followed TRP. Complete and utter bullshit. It is like you are just throwing anything you can think of around and hoping something will stick. Instead of just watching the damn film and then commenting. I am starting to thin you are just trolling. No other explanation for someone who is so determined to lie about what the film includes.
Even if you bother to watch the film now, it wont matter, you have a closed mind about it before you even watch it. You will just be determined to make sure you defend your weird narrative. -
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@No-Quarter said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@No-Quarter said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
Calling her movie The Red Pill was a bad move, for many it instantly robbed it of any credibility because most people associate it with pick up artist douchery, not mens rights.
Most people, i.e. you.
No, most people that have ever heard of them.
They've gained notoriety in the past for seriously discussing stuff like "Women want to be raped" or "The case for legalising rape".
From recollection, theres some cross over with the Alt Right but Im not sure how.
But in case you are of the belief that they are about Mens Rights and not Picking Up women, dont take my word for it, take theirs:
"The Red Pill: Discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men."I'd never heard of them so the name was pretty meaningless to me.
Cassie Jaye said she did ask them about the comments to do with rape, and said that a) those comments were taken out of context and were largely explainable and b) she chose not to include them in this movie as anything to do with rape is a massive rabbit hole that would require it's own movie.
I don't know the context so won't comment on them, but as with anything context is critical. And in my experience with SJWs/Feminists they absolutely love to take statements out of context to smear people they disagree with politically.
Check it out for yourself and see what you think. Ask women what they think.
I haven't watched the movie yet. Thing is, I totally agree that there are problems that are unique to men, I just argue the naming of the movie was a bad choice. It instantly aligns itself with the Alt Right and if one wants to be taken seriously, that's not a great start.Ask women what they think? What good would that do? I could ask two woman and get two completely different answers. Woman aren't completely homogenous, I really dislike when a groupthink mentalilty is assigned to people based on biological features like gender or race, it's nonsensical in the real world.
Anyway when I google "The Red Pill" I get a bunch of links about the movie and a reddit page with a handful of followers talking about a variety of stuff of little interest to me. So didn't really learn much there and don't have much motivation to look further right now...
I believe its a good idea to seek out people who are likely to harbour differing views and I thought you might too. No one suggested all women think the same (?!).
So why did you specify he talk to a woman and not just a person?
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@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@No-Quarter said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@No-Quarter said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
Calling her movie The Red Pill was a bad move, for many it instantly robbed it of any credibility because most people associate it with pick up artist douchery, not mens rights.
Most people, i.e. you.
No, most people that have ever heard of them.
They've gained notoriety in the past for seriously discussing stuff like "Women want to be raped" or "The case for legalising rape".
From recollection, theres some cross over with the Alt Right but Im not sure how.
But in case you are of the belief that they are about Mens Rights and not Picking Up women, dont take my word for it, take theirs:
"The Red Pill: Discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men."I'd never heard of them so the name was pretty meaningless to me.
Cassie Jaye said she did ask them about the comments to do with rape, and said that a) those comments were taken out of context and were largely explainable and b) she chose not to include them in this movie as anything to do with rape is a massive rabbit hole that would require it's own movie.
I don't know the context so won't comment on them, but as with anything context is critical. And in my experience with SJWs/Feminists they absolutely love to take statements out of context to smear people they disagree with politically.
Check it out for yourself and see what you think. Ask women what they think.
I haven't watched the movie yet. Thing is, I totally agree that there are problems that are unique to men, I just argue the naming of the movie was a bad choice. It instantly aligns itself with the Alt Right and if one wants to be taken seriously, that's not a great start.Ask women what they think? What good would that do? I could ask two woman and get two completely different answers. Woman aren't completely homogenous, I really dislike when a groupthink mentalilty is assigned to people based on biological features like gender or race, it's nonsensical in the real world.
Anyway when I google "The Red Pill" I get a bunch of links about the movie and a reddit page with a handful of followers talking about a variety of stuff of little interest to me. So didn't really learn much there and don't have much motivation to look further right now...
I believe its a good idea to seek out people who are likely to harbour differing views and I thought you might too. No one suggested all women think the same (?!).
Right, so we agree not all women think the same. Struggling to understand why you specifically said I should talk to women then.
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@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rembrandt said in Gender Studies:
The red pill and its opposite, the blue pill, are popular cultural symbols representing the choice between: Knowledge, freedom and the (sometimes painful) truth of reality (red pill) Falsehood, security and the blissful ignorance of illusion (blue pill)
Works for me.
So what is the alt-right then exactly? From what Ive read it covers anyone from Hitler to anyone who happens to even slightly disagree with something from the left.
See, names matter. Rather than alt-right, they should call themselves "Angry white man justice keyboard warriors" (again, borrowing their online vernacular). They see themselves as some kind of antithesis to the SJW of the left which has unwittingly exposed them to the same derision and ignominy.
Hey, does anyone here consider themselves alt-right?
I still can't believe that you think the name of this film has somehow impacted on how it has been received in Australia. You honestly think that there would be zero controversy if she'd simply called it "Men and women" or "Men have problems"?
BTW I did a Google search. In addition to the definition provided by the Dutch Master, there was also this from Urban Dictionary:
'Red pill' has become a popular phrase among cyberculture and signifies a free-thinking attitude, and a waking up from a "normal" life of sloth and ignorance. Red pills prefer the truth, no matter how gritty and painful it may be."
Seems like a pretty apt title to me, particularly as the filmmaker had to challenge her own biases and worldview.
I didn't make that claim so I'm not going to rebut your argument.
When I googled TheRedPill, I got 6 links concerning the insalubrious side of TRP, 2 links to the movie, 1 link to their reddit forum & 1 link to urban dictionary.
Also, I now know that it was created by a former Republican representative. Despite being his own creation, he tried to distance himself from initially so it seems its toxicity was not lost on him. He ended up resigning after his identity was made public.
You claimed that the name meant the film couldn't be taken seriously and that "most people" would connect it to some obscure term used by the alt-right. I respectfully disagree and am also unsure what this has to do with the discussion, which was principally about how this film has been received in Australia. Unless of course you do think that the "outcry" is because of the name and not the actual content of the film.
Cmon mate, you're strawmanning too. I didnt say it couldnt be taken seriously, I said it robbed it of credibility, not ALL credibility. Yes I think it was a factor however I did not make any claim that there would be zero controversy were it named something else.
BTW, TheRedPill is not an obscure Alt-Right term. TheRedPill started off as a pick up artist whoops I mean sexual strategy forum, its alleged at some point Alt-Right followers started to onboard TRP followers and apparently there is now a TheRedPillRight. TRP originally cited the Matrix as the origin of its name.
What are you talking about? Most people have never heard of Alt-right, let alone the red pill and yet you claim using this name has had a detrimental effect on the film? That's just complete bollocks. This film is "controversial" because of the content not the bloody name.
I never said the content wasnt controversial and I never said alt-right was widely known.
The alt right has nothing to do with it... that is just a bizarre straw man you introduced.
You dont seem to understand what a strawman is. Yes I raised that the alt-right have some history with TRP but I did not misrepresent anyone elses argument in order to make it weaker.
TRP reddit group is irrelevant to the film, you tried to make some bizarre link. Then you decided to bring up the alt right.. I am guessing in some distraction from the actual topic. So yes.. a straw man.
Gender Studies