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@baron-silas-greenback Did I say that? I was just pointing out that using Turkey as an example isn't a good argument for supporting the policy of a first world country.
The argument also ignores the context that Turkey has ISIS terrorists trying to cross the border as well as the Peshmerga and Iranians to deal with.
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@calf said in US Politics:
@baron-silas-greenback Did I say that? I was just pointing out that using Turkey as an example isn't a good argument for supporting the policy of a first world country.
The argument also ignores the context that Turkey has ISIS terrorists trying to cross the border as well as the Peshmerga and Iranians to deal with.
@Calf Why isnt Turkey a good example of using a wall to keep out peoplethat you don't want? Because they follow a different religion to the U.S.?
Not sure how the contecxt proves your point...
Actually what is your point? Apart from the facile one that Turkey and the U.S. are different.
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@baron-silas-greenback said in US Politics:
@calf said in US Politics:
@baron-silas-greenback Did I say that? I was just pointing out that using Turkey as an example isn't a good argument for supporting the policy of a first world country.
The argument also ignores the context that Turkey has ISIS terrorists trying to cross the border as well as the Peshmerga and Iranians to deal with.
@Calf Why isnt Turkey a good example of using a wall to keep out peoplethat you don't want? Because they follow a different religion to the U.S.?
Not sure how the contecxt proves your point...
Actually what is your point? Apart from the facile one that Turkey and the U.S. are different.
I would assume the point @Calf was countering in suggesting Turkey is not a good example was this statement "Something to consider the next time you hear globalists and liberals insisting that Trump’s wall will never work, it’s too costly, too fascistic, too xenophobic, etc."
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@calf said in US Politics:
@jc Well if a liberal, secular democracy like Turkey can do it we definitely shouldn't criticize the US.
Again; who paid for it? If you happen to live in the liberal secular European Union, then YOU did.
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@calf said in US Politics:
@baron-silas-greenback Did I say that? I was just pointing out that using Turkey as an example isn't a good argument for supporting the policy of a first world country.
The argument also ignores the context that Turkey has ISIS terrorists trying to cross the border as well as the Peshmerga and Iranians to deal with.
And if you didn’t read the story (rhetorical point: you clearly didn’t) then you would have known it’s not just Turkey.
Here’s a report in The Independent, published a week BEFORE Trump won the U.S. election:
Brick and mortars: Walls are being raised across Europe to keep migrants out
Europe was once home to the world’s most open frontiers. But with the mass flow of migrants fleeing war-torn countries, much has changed. In the second piece of a three-part series, we look at the walls sealing the continent’s doors shut
2nd point: Turkey is a part of NATO, meaning, they get into a conflict, then everybody else in NATO gets pulled in to defend their liberal, secular arses.
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Likewise, more than a YEAR before Trump was elected and vilified as the worst-of-the-worst:
Europe is building more fences to keep people out
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The long-awaited DOJ IG Report is finally out. Fasten your seatbelts. The sleaze is oozing...
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Jimmy Dore is one liberal leftist who is aghast at the mass hysteria cult from people on his side. This video entry makes a truckload of excellent points about how MSNBC and the Maddow show has become this century’s version of the John Birch Society.
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Astounding mathematics:
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Some things should be self evident, but apparently they need saying:
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Really? Cause I think she is full of shite.
1/ That law has not been changed, EXACTLY the same thing has been happening for years, including under her husband.
2/ This is just a continuation of the 'kids in cages' narrative that was debunked. It is a left wing hit job with a compliant media aided by never Trumpers.
3/ Many people smugglers use kids as an easier entrance.
4/ Parents are separated from kids all the time. What happens when a US citizen gets arrested and goes to jail? Do males with kids get a free ticket from jail cause they have kids? It is also self evident that people should not go to jail if they have kids and the only option is state care??
5/ None of these bleeding hearts ever actually come up with a solution. Let them all in? If they have kids.. just waltz through? Trump has had a number of ideas squashed that would solve the issue. Do you know how many of these Asylum seekers end up appearing for the judgement? How many get ruled as bogus? You might be shocked. Borders need to matter.
6/ How about the parents take some responsibility and not come through the southern border. Maybe they could chose to not be separated form their children? You know that is an option they could easily choose? Stay in Mexico.. done.It is sooooo easy for the bleeding hearts to moralise form on high, but they never ever have any solutions other than let everyone in.. or policies that would have that effect in reality. Laura Bush can shove her sermon up where the sun dont shine, I would be more interested in her opinion if she actually had some real policy and solutions.
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@rembrandt said in US Politics:
I found this a good read on the kids separation thing.
It is of course horrible but its a whole lot more complex than the 'Trump is literally putting kids in cages' rhetoric.I am confused by that arcticle. It lays out the facts ... But Laura told me emotional moral stuff.
Oh who to believe?????
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@baron-silas-greenback I agree with some of those comments, what I don't see is how they're helped by - or justify - family separations.
1/ That law has not been changed, EXACTLY the same thing has been happening for years, including under her husband.
Then it should have blown up earlier. Though it sounds like it hasn't due to the numbers? (And/or the left wing media if you prefer as per your point 2)
3/ Many people smugglers use kids as an easier entrance.
Sure, one of many dodgy tactics. I'd happily see a much tougher line taken with people smugglers around the globe - in some cases I've seen I'd go with capital punishment - and I don't say that lightly. There's a middle ground between letting people smugglers getting away with it by letting in families with kids - and separating kids from their families in the interim.
4/ Parents are separated from kids all the time. What happens when a US citizen gets arrested and goes to jail? Do males with kids get a free ticket from jail cause they have kids? It is also self evident that people should not go to jail if they have kids and the only option is state care??
I'd argue the context:
- In one sense, the kids are also entering illegally and are also being held
- Yes... clearly there is diminished responsibility for the kids so they are rightly not charged. But given they are detained (or need to be detained to wait for family reunification), is there a compelling reason for separating them (outside of the obvious cases where there are risks of family violence)?
- There appears to be no chance of the kids being able to return to extended family in the interim(?), unlike the starters chance that the US kid has of going to wider family when a father goes to jail.
- The length of detention between the analogies could vary significantly - depending on the type of crime that the US male with kids commits.
I think this is something we'll continue to differ on though.
5/ None of these bleeding hearts ever actually come up with a solution. Let them all in? If they have kids.. just waltz through? Trump has had a number of ideas squashed that would solve the issue. Do you know how many of these Asylum seekers end up appearing for the judgement? How many get ruled as bogus? You might be shocked. Borders need to matter.
Is there a middle ground between "let them all in/just waltz through?" and family separation? I'll make little comment on Trump on this one - beyond whatever you want to call me out on from inferences in the article. I'm far from a fan of Trump, but I'm not impressed with some Democrat tactics either - on this or other matters recently. As per Rembrant's article, I'm quite happy to direct gnashing of teeth at Congress: "The missing piece here is Congress, but little outrage will be directed at it, and probably nothing will be done. And so our perverse system will remain in place and the crisis at the border will rumble on."
Do you know how many of these Asylum seekers end up appearing for the judgement? How many get ruled as bogus? You might be shocked. Borders need to matter.
No, I wouldn't be shocked. Yes, borders need to matter. I don't see how any of it is helped by - or justifies - family separations. Yes - I'm also being unhelpful by not proposing a solution beyond being a bleeding heart; for the moment it's a visceral reaction to something that I really don't like seeing.
6/ How about the parents take some responsibility and not come through the southern border. Maybe they could chose to not be separated form their children? You know that is an option they could easily choose? Stay in Mexico.. done
Also agreed. But for now they haven't and here we are. And kids are caught up in it all. Much like the Mediterranean crossings, they shouldn't do it and shouldn't be encouraged (capital punishment for people smugglers knowingly taking kids on overloaded and unseaworthy boats would suit me - I'd almost go as far as summary justice)... but once they've started it I'd rather they were rescued out of the water first and we argued it second.
It is sooooo easy for the bleeding hearts to moralise form on high, but they never ever have any solutions other than let everyone in.. or policies that would have that effect in reality. Laura Bush can shove her sermon up where the sun dont shine, I would be more interested in her opinion if she actually had some real policy and solutions.
I don't see family separations helping as a form of discouragement, or the extent to which it may, I don't believe that they are worth the price. If that makes me a bleeding heart, so be it.
I'd have to have a go at solutions another day. On the face of it, asylum law has become more problematic/misused than intended, but there also need to be safeguards for legitimate use. For now I'm not sure where to start on that one... I'm very fond of the UK border at Calais, but that solution is helped entirely by geography.
For now, I'm at least encouraged by the White House not being in favour - including the comments of the First Lady and reading into a couple by the President too.
"White House counselor Kellyanne Conway said on NBC Sunday... "As a mother, as a Catholic, as somebody who has got a conscience ... I will tell you that nobody likes this policy""
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Interesting article here about convicted felons being separated from their children:
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@rancid-schnitzel That was a thought provoking piece. I was all ready to climb into it for false equivalence, but now I'm not so sure. I don't think it justifies the current situation with the illegals and in truth I don't think that is what the article is trying to do, but it does highlight what a thorny problem the whole thing is.
Thanks for posting.
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If interested, this podcast by Malcolm Gladwell in his Revisionist History series documents the recent history of the US border and context as to how it the border policies have changed.
It's about 20 odd minutes and while not offering solutions it does enlighten some of the changes to immigration and why. It's not a bad historical insight about the man, General Chapman who changed border enforcement.
"Good fences make good neighbors. Or maybe not."
General Leonard Chapman guided the Marines Corp through some of the most difficult years in its history. He was brilliant, organized, decisive and indefatigable. Then he turned his attention to the America’s immigration crisis. You think you want effective leadership? Be careful what you wish for.
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Thee only way kids are seperated form parents is if
1/ They do not use a proper port of entry, i.e sneak across the border.
2/ The when caught they claim asylum. The vast majority of which are bogus.
3/ If one of these 3 conditions occur the child is taken
i) Cannot verify any relationship between the child and adult (important to stop sex traffickers)
ii) When the US verifies that the child is at risk from the adult (clearly bad)
iii) The adult is referred for criminal felony prosecution. (serious crime)And they are not mistreated, the US taxpayer spends over $35000 per kid per year on these minors. That is more than alot of kids in the US live on.
Bear in mind that at any stage, the supposed family unit could just reverse course and go back from where they came.. as a family unit. They are CHOOSING to be separated. get caught at the border trying o sneak in... go back.. or don't claim asylum... or have documents showing you are the parents... you will keep your kids.
These smugglers know that kids have been a ticket to easy US access. Since 2012 when Obama dropped the ball... 'family units' illegally entering increased by 400% often the same child used more than once in different 'family units'...If just anyone can claim asylum and be released, never to come back to face the judges assessment.. how is that not an open border?
It blows my mind that people are being sucked in by all of this left wing spin. Want to not get separated from your kids.. use one of the 25 ports of entry along the border. Claim asylum there.. and you wont be separated. Dont sneak across.
Pretty bloody simple. -
Kids in cages, oh noes!!
This is just the latest manufactured outrage.
It was only a couple weeks ago that journalists tweeted their horror and disgust at photos of kids in cages, using them as an example of the worst humanitarian crisis in American history!!! Then, when informed that pics were actually from 2014 and the Obama administration, they suddenly deleted them. If those kids were in Hope & Change cages, that made ALL the difference in the world, see. They weren’t separated from their families; they were getting free wifi in Barack’s Holiday Camp. Yay!!
Now it’s Big Time Important News again, almost precisely at the moment that the Rooskie investigation pivots to an investigation of the FBI and James Comey. Whoops, better turn the spotlight somewhere else, and pretend Obama-era non-scandals are now the end of the world and humanity itself, basically Auschwitz, ‘cos, well, obviously, Drumpf.
Entirely predictable.
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