Crusaders name/branding
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@Stargazer said in Crusaders name/branding:
@Toddy said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
I wonder if they'll keep the crusading knights swinging swords as part of their entertainment.
Knights with swords on horses existed well before and after the crusades. Bascially, the only thing that you can link to the crusades is the cross on the shields and shirts. Leave them off, and there's no link at all.
It would be a complete overreaction to ban the knights on horses from the pregame entertainment.
Not that I think they should change anything at all.
Yeah, the link between the knights and Crusades would be tenuous at best if the cross was removed....
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@sparky said in Crusaders name/branding:
Yes, I was aware the Crusades happened several centuries ago. They are still a cause of profound pain to Muslims whose ancestors were enslaved, raped and murdered by, at times barbaric, European invaders and to many Jewish people because of Rhineland Massacres. Communities tend to remember their children being roasted alive by savages.
St Patrick was even longer ago and probably English or two people, but that doesn't stop him being an important part of the Irish diaspora's social memory.
Not the biggest thing in the world by any means, but IMHO there are many other parts of European and New Zealand history that are much more deserving commemoration by a world-class sports team than the Crusades.
That’s just remembering one side of history. Barbaric acts occurred on both sides and was just part of civilisation 800 years ago.
The Islamic empire of the time had plenty of blood on its hands, as did the prophet Mohammed.
The point is that it was eight centuries ago. Anyone still hanging onto that history is the problem, not the name. Nobody gets hurt when they are offended.
Anybody in the media campaigning for this name change is doing the terrorists work. It’s exactly the sort of stupid distraction annd division his trolling manifesto was trying to provoke.
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@Kirwan said in Crusaders name/branding:
@sparky said in Crusaders name/branding:
Yes, I was aware the Crusades happened several centuries ago. They are still a cause of profound pain to Muslims whose ancestors were enslaved, raped and murdered by, at times barbaric, European invaders and to many Jewish people because of Rhineland Massacres. Communities tend to remember their children being roasted alive by savages.
St Patrick was even longer ago and probably English or two people, but that doesn't stop him being an important part of the Irish diaspora's social memory.
Not the biggest thing in the world by any means, but IMHO there are many other parts of European and New Zealand history that are much more deserving commemoration by a world-class sports team than the Crusades.
That’s just remembering one side of history. Barbaric acts occurred on both sides and was just part of civilisation 800 years ago.
The Islamic empire of the time had plenty of blood on its hands, as did the prophet Mohammed.
The point is that it was eight centuries ago. Anyone still hanging onto that history is the problem, not the name. Nobody gets hurt when they are offended.
Anybody in the media campaigning for this name change is doing the terrorists work. It’s exactly the sort of stupid distraction annd division his trolling manifesto was trying to provoke.
True, but there's no SR team named after those other barbaric acts, is there?
And whether some groups are hanging on to history may be a problem, but it's a fact you can't just discount.
Alhtough I don't agree with a name change, I don't think it's "doing the terrorist's work". The name was always sensitive to some, also before last Friday.
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"They are still a cause of profound pain to Muslims whose ancestors were enslaved, raped and murdered by, at times barbaric, European invaders and to many Jewish people because of Rhineland Massacres. Communities tend to remember their children being roasted alive by savages."
No. There is no profound pain for anything that didn't happen in a person's lifetime.
No one remembers any "pain" of history. All people (any race or religion) can empathise with the people of that time but nobody in 2019 is a victim of things done hundreds of years ago.
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I disagree. In Ireland, they will always remember the Irish Famine. Jewish families will always remember those killed in the Shoah. African Americans remember slavery and the civil rights struggle. Most western societies honour their war dead. Most emotional remembrance services I've ever seen was in Russia. Those memories involve pain.
I have no problems with any social memories unless those social memories become an excuse for hate and violence.
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@sparky well it is a great way to claim victimhood and then retribution, and then trot home to a life of modern day comfort, rights and non war peace but at the end of the day it's used as a narrative, (altitude training for the victim olympics)
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The Rhineland Massacres (probably the start of violent anti-Semitism in Europe) and the Jerusalem Massacre (all the women and children in the city killed) were heinous war crimes even by the standards of the day.
There was no single "Islamic Empire" that the medieval Crusaders attacked and murdered in but a series of states in the Levant like the Seljuq Empire, the Ayyubid Sultanate, the Danishments, the Fatimid Empire, the Nizari Islaili and even in some Crusades the Christian Kingdom of Cyprus and the Byzantine empire. It was always a poorly chosen name with no connection to NZ, just as calling a team "The Inquistion" would have been.
I'm sympathetic to your more general point, changing the name of the local Rugby heroes now and the backlash it would cause would look like a terrorist victory. On balance, I'm against a name change unless for security reasons.
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St. John and Red Cross (plus others I expect) use the same cross that was represented by the Crusades...where should we draw the line? How about next time something happens, move those lines then?
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@sparky said in Crusaders name/branding:
I disagree. In Ireland, they will always remember the Irish Famine. Jewish families will always remember those killed in the Shoah. African Americans remember slavery and the civil rights struggle. Most western societies honour their war dead. Most emotional remembrance services I've ever seen was in Russia. Those memories involve pain.
I have no problems with any social memories unless those social memories become an excuse for hate and violence.
You have moved the goal posts though. You first said 'profound pain' now it is remembers. If anyone in Ireland feels 'profound pain' about the famine then they are either mentally ill or have never actually experienced profound pain. When your child gets diagnosed with Cancer you feel profound pain, when a loved one dies suddenly you feel profound pain... when some people died of starvation or violence hundreds of years NOBODY sane feels profound pain in the current time.
And for the record I am 100% convinced that it will be changed, a lot of people LOVE to virtue signal at this sort of time.
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I disagree the past, even if distant to you or me, is a matter of profound pain (as real as an immediate personal tragedy) to some families and societies.
No problem with that unless it leads to hatred, violence or the expectation of legal reparations.
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This post is deleted!
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@Stargazer said in Crusaders name/branding:
@Kirwan said in Crusaders name/branding:
@sparky said in Crusaders name/branding:
Yes, I was aware the Crusades happened several centuries ago. They are still a cause of profound pain to Muslims whose ancestors were enslaved, raped and murdered by, at times barbaric, European invaders and to many Jewish people because of Rhineland Massacres. Communities tend to remember their children being roasted alive by savages.
St Patrick was even longer ago and probably English or two people, but that doesn't stop him being an important part of the Irish diaspora's social memory.
Not the biggest thing in the world by any means, but IMHO there are many other parts of European and New Zealand history that are much more deserving commemoration by a world-class sports team than the Crusades.
That’s just remembering one side of history. Barbaric acts occurred on both sides and was just part of civilisation 800 years ago.
The Islamic empire of the time had plenty of blood on its hands, as did the prophet Mohammed.
The point is that it was eight centuries ago. Anyone still hanging onto that history is the problem, not the name. Nobody gets hurt when they are offended.
Anybody in the media campaigning for this name change is doing the terrorists work. It’s exactly the sort of stupid distraction annd division his trolling manifesto was trying to provoke.
True, but there's no SR team named after those other barbaric acts, is there?
And whether some groups are hanging on to history may be a problem, but it's a fact you can't just discount.
Alhtough I don't agree with a name change, I don't think it's "doing the terrorist's work". The name was always sensitive to some, also before last Friday.
No super rugby team ... but Saracens ...
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Saracens nearly changed their name to London Tribe after 7/7. I'm glad they didn't.
Saracens' marketing is perhaps a pointer of the best way forward here. Sarrie the Camel as pre-match entertainment, not men on horseback waving swords. A Fez as a gift for players after a landmark game, not a sword. No name change necessary IMHO, just a little more cultural sensitivity.
The Allianz hosted today a big Jewish charity event. I am sure the Crusaders will help raise money for victims of Friday's attacks.
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@sparky said in Crusaders name/branding:
I disagree the past, even if distant to you or me, is a matter of profound pain (as real as an immediate personal tragedy) to some families and societies.
No problem with that unless it leads to hatred, violence or the expectation of legal repatriations.
I bet you cannot even name all of your ancestrs that were alive 150 years ago.
If you cannot name them, it shows how shallow this profound pain would be. I know that my great grandfather who had a small child who dies after getting run over by a wagon. Should I feel profound pain from that? No.
It is just fakeness and dishonesty if I said that every time I saw a horse and wagon at a fair or event I felt a sense of profound pain, I remember and I think jeez that must of really sucked... glad that wasnt me.I refuse to validate other peoples faux outrage and faux 'profound pain'.
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Bet lost, but only because other people had the time and inclination to research Family Trees, including a distant cousin who turned her researches on that part of the family into a book.
I hope the Crusaders don't change their name because the circumstances make it inappropriate and the team means a huge amount now to their community. But, as someone who has studied and taught for many years about the appalling Crusades, I regret (a little) that the name was chosen in the first place.
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I think when they say 'haphazard' naming of the teams, it means proper amateur administrators who made choices under pressure when the game turned pro. They were probably more worried about signing players against world rugby, than getting the names 'right'.
That said, 'Crusaders' was always a bit of an interesting choice
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Middlesex Crcket Club dropped the name Middlesex Crusaders in 2009 following complaints from the Muslim and Jewish North London communities after using it for ten years:
They ditched the replacement name Middlesex Panthers in 2014:
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@sparky said in Crusaders name/branding:
Bet lost, but only because other people had the time and inclination to research Family Trees, including a distant cousin who turned her researches on that part of the family into a book.
I hope the Crusaders don't change their name because the circumstances make it inappropriate and the team means a huge amount now to their community. But, as someone who has studied and taught for many years about the appalling Crusades, I regret (a little) that the name was chosen in the first place.
Really? You remember them all? Not just have access to them, but remember all full names? That is actually impressive, I could find them up in my family tree.. but just dont have the inclination to remember them.