Grace Millane
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@booboo said in Grace Millane:
@Godder thanks
Can you confirm for me that if they don't prove murder they can still convict for manslaughter at the same trial huh? (Always thought they could default down but someone somewhere, maybe even here, can't be bothered checking, seemed to suggest they couldn't)
Yes unless the case doesn't lend itself to that. If there's definitely culpable homicide, then defending by saying it's manslaughter rather than murder is a common defence.
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@Siam said in Grace Millane:
We've lost a lot of objectivity in our lives among a cloud of unhelpful and counter productive emotion.
Spot on.
There's been too many cases here in the UK where emotion-based political pressure to get conviction rates up (e.g. Rape cases) has resulted in appalling miscarriages of justice.
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@hydro11 said in Grace Millane:
There is abnormal behaviour though. Trying to dispose the body is probably normal. A tinder date the next night? Shouldn't a remorseful person be too much of a mess?
No excusing the defendant here, but people do abnormal things when they're involved in the death of another human being and I can see why might people react in certain, suspicious ways. Up to the jury to decide.
A out-of-control dog mauled a young boy to death at a holiday camp near us last year. The dog's owner went on the run for a few days and there was a bit of the usual UK media hysteria. Turns out the woman had had a complete mental breakdown.
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@Frank said in Grace Millane:
@Crazy-Horse said in Grace Millane:
@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@jegga said in Grace Millane:
@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@jegga said in Grace Millane:
@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
@jegga said in Grace Millane:
@Siam said in Grace Millane:
@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:
while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.
Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him
I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.
Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for
There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.
It also killed off (or misdirected) a lot of damaging comments regarding safety of tourists in NZ.
Or even a combination of the two.Tourists die here occasionally unfortunately. I don’t recall a similar display of public emotional incontinence from Helen Clark when Birget Bauer died .
I think the real danger factor here was not the country it happened in but dating apps like tinder which seems to be getting glossed over a bit . I think hooking up with someone you don’t know outside of their Facebook profile in a foreign country is incredibly risky . I’m sure if you’re a nutter like this guy a traveler with less contacts and therefore people to notice she’s missing is an attractive target .Your thoughts @snowy ?
Without a doubt. Going way back people's sexual partners were almost always known to them through family and friends. That's obviously changed over time but the dating apps have thrown it into overdrive. They're a great place for stalkers and creeps to hang out - they have an app that actually lists a bunch of potential victims in their area for them.
I would advise extreme caution to young women putting themselves on those - from where I'm sitting they seem like a pretty obvious recipe for disaster.
The two people in that case on the Gold Coast where the girl fell from the high rise met on tinder I think , his behaviour after she died was similar too .
He went out and got a pizza. This guy surfed the net for hardcore porn and information about how to dispose of a body and clean a crime scene. Then he went out the next night on another tinder date. Not normal behaviour
I know nothing about this case, but I have seen people do weird shit following a traumatic event. Not sure there is 'normal' behaviour.
Well it was "traumatic" for him in that he killed her and then disposed of the body. And by your standard, the subsequent behavior of a possible offender would have little if any relevance, no matter how suspicious.
If you accidentally kill someone during sex you call the cops - immediately.
A person's innocence or guilt cannot be judged by their subsequent actions. Cops do look at what the suspect did following the alleged offence but it would be a foolish investigator to not keep in mind there have been plenty of people convicted of crimes who did all the 'right' things following the offence.
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@Crazy-Horse said in Grace Millane:
@Frank said in Grace Millane:
@Crazy-Horse said in Grace Millane:
@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@jegga said in Grace Millane:
@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@jegga said in Grace Millane:
@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
@jegga said in Grace Millane:
@Siam said in Grace Millane:
@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:
while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.
Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him
I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.
Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for
There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.
It also killed off (or misdirected) a lot of damaging comments regarding safety of tourists in NZ.
Or even a combination of the two.Tourists die here occasionally unfortunately. I don’t recall a similar display of public emotional incontinence from Helen Clark when Birget Bauer died .
I think the real danger factor here was not the country it happened in but dating apps like tinder which seems to be getting glossed over a bit . I think hooking up with someone you don’t know outside of their Facebook profile in a foreign country is incredibly risky . I’m sure if you’re a nutter like this guy a traveler with less contacts and therefore people to notice she’s missing is an attractive target .Your thoughts @snowy ?
Without a doubt. Going way back people's sexual partners were almost always known to them through family and friends. That's obviously changed over time but the dating apps have thrown it into overdrive. They're a great place for stalkers and creeps to hang out - they have an app that actually lists a bunch of potential victims in their area for them.
I would advise extreme caution to young women putting themselves on those - from where I'm sitting they seem like a pretty obvious recipe for disaster.
The two people in that case on the Gold Coast where the girl fell from the high rise met on tinder I think , his behaviour after she died was similar too .
He went out and got a pizza. This guy surfed the net for hardcore porn and information about how to dispose of a body and clean a crime scene. Then he went out the next night on another tinder date. Not normal behaviour
I know nothing about this case, but I have seen people do weird shit following a traumatic event. Not sure there is 'normal' behaviour.
Well it was "traumatic" for him in that he killed her and then disposed of the body. And by your standard, the subsequent behavior of a possible offender would have little if any relevance, no matter how suspicious.
If you accidentally kill someone during sex you call the cops - immediately.
A person's innocence or guilt cannot be judged by their subsequent actions. Cops do look at what the suspect did following the alleged offence but it would be a foolish investigator to not keep in mind there have been plenty of people convicted of crimes who did all the 'right' things following the offence.
I never said it was the definitive 100% test of innocence or guilt - just that it is relevant and not to be totally discounted.
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@Siam said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 said in Grace Millane:
@Crazy-Horse said in Grace Millane:
@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@jegga said in Grace Millane:
@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@jegga said in Grace Millane:
@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
@jegga said in Grace Millane:
@Siam said in Grace Millane:
@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:
while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.
Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him
I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.
Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for
There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.
It also killed off (or misdirected) a lot of damaging comments regarding safety of tourists in NZ.
Or even a combination of the two.Tourists die here occasionally unfortunately. I don’t recall a similar display of public emotional incontinence from Helen Clark when Birget Bauer died .
I think the real danger factor here was not the country it happened in but dating apps like tinder which seems to be getting glossed over a bit . I think hooking up with someone you don’t know outside of their Facebook profile in a foreign country is incredibly risky . I’m sure if you’re a nutter like this guy a traveler with less contacts and therefore people to notice she’s missing is an attractive target .Your thoughts @snowy ?
Without a doubt. Going way back people's sexual partners were almost always known to them through family and friends. That's obviously changed over time but the dating apps have thrown it into overdrive. They're a great place for stalkers and creeps to hang out - they have an app that actually lists a bunch of potential victims in their area for them.
I would advise extreme caution to young women putting themselves on those - from where I'm sitting they seem like a pretty obvious recipe for disaster.
The two people in that case on the Gold Coast where the girl fell from the high rise met on tinder I think , his behaviour after she died was similar too .
He went out and got a pizza. This guy surfed the net for hardcore porn and information about how to dispose of a body and clean a crime scene. Then he went out the next night on another tinder date. Not normal behaviour
I know nothing about this case, but I have seen people do weird shit following a traumatic event. Not sure there is 'normal' behaviour.
There is abnormal behaviour though. Trying to dispose the body is probably normal. A tinder date the next night? Shouldn't a remorseful person be too much of a mess?
Remorse isn't on trial though.
In this day and age of feelings fake news and simplifying all aspects of society life it's easy to forget that, at close inspection, our serious laws are very well designed, all things considered.
We've lost a lot of objectivity in our lives among a cloud of unhelpful and counter productive emotion.
It lends weight to the act being deliberate though. If the act wasn't deliberate, you would expect someone to show remorse. How he acted after the fact is 100% relevant.
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@hydro11 said in Grace Millane:
@Siam said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 said in Grace Millane:
@Crazy-Horse said in Grace Millane:
@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@jegga said in Grace Millane:
@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@jegga said in Grace Millane:
@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
@jegga said in Grace Millane:
@Siam said in Grace Millane:
@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:
while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.
Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him
I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.
Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for
There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.
It also killed off (or misdirected) a lot of damaging comments regarding safety of tourists in NZ.
Or even a combination of the two.Tourists die here occasionally unfortunately. I don’t recall a similar display of public emotional incontinence from Helen Clark when Birget Bauer died .
I think the real danger factor here was not the country it happened in but dating apps like tinder which seems to be getting glossed over a bit . I think hooking up with someone you don’t know outside of their Facebook profile in a foreign country is incredibly risky . I’m sure if you’re a nutter like this guy a traveler with less contacts and therefore people to notice she’s missing is an attractive target .Your thoughts @snowy ?
Without a doubt. Going way back people's sexual partners were almost always known to them through family and friends. That's obviously changed over time but the dating apps have thrown it into overdrive. They're a great place for stalkers and creeps to hang out - they have an app that actually lists a bunch of potential victims in their area for them.
I would advise extreme caution to young women putting themselves on those - from where I'm sitting they seem like a pretty obvious recipe for disaster.
The two people in that case on the Gold Coast where the girl fell from the high rise met on tinder I think , his behaviour after she died was similar too .
He went out and got a pizza. This guy surfed the net for hardcore porn and information about how to dispose of a body and clean a crime scene. Then he went out the next night on another tinder date. Not normal behaviour
I know nothing about this case, but I have seen people do weird shit following a traumatic event. Not sure there is 'normal' behaviour.
There is abnormal behaviour though. Trying to dispose the body is probably normal. A tinder date the next night? Shouldn't a remorseful person be too much of a mess?
Remorse isn't on trial though.
In this day and age of feelings fake news and simplifying all aspects of society life it's easy to forget that, at close inspection, our serious laws are very well designed, all things considered.
We've lost a lot of objectivity in our lives among a cloud of unhelpful and counter productive emotion.
It lends weight to the act being deliberate though. If the act wasn't deliberate, you would expect someone to show remorse. How he acted after the fact is 100% relevant.
Only if what I have bolded there is always true.
I think the point was that you can't assume behaviour based on what you think is normal. People act and react in very different ways.I know nothing about this guy but can see a scenario that fits where he is a narcissist. Thinks everything is about himself, and that such an 'accident' can't be his fault. Will carrying on focussing on himself and on protecting himself etc. Total lack of empathy.
I can totally follow the thought process but can also see that if someone is trying to process something bad their head can be spinning all over the place and 'normal' behaviour is more likely the exception rather than the norm.
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@hydro11 said in Grace Millane:
@Siam said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 said in Grace Millane:
@Crazy-Horse said in Grace Millane:
@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@jegga said in Grace Millane:
@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@jegga said in Grace Millane:
@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
@jegga said in Grace Millane:
@Siam said in Grace Millane:
@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:
while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.
Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him
I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.
Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for
There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.
It also killed off (or misdirected) a lot of damaging comments regarding safety of tourists in NZ.
Or even a combination of the two.Tourists die here occasionally unfortunately. I don’t recall a similar display of public emotional incontinence from Helen Clark when Birget Bauer died .
I think the real danger factor here was not the country it happened in but dating apps like tinder which seems to be getting glossed over a bit . I think hooking up with someone you don’t know outside of their Facebook profile in a foreign country is incredibly risky . I’m sure if you’re a nutter like this guy a traveler with less contacts and therefore people to notice she’s missing is an attractive target .Your thoughts @snowy ?
Without a doubt. Going way back people's sexual partners were almost always known to them through family and friends. That's obviously changed over time but the dating apps have thrown it into overdrive. They're a great place for stalkers and creeps to hang out - they have an app that actually lists a bunch of potential victims in their area for them.
I would advise extreme caution to young women putting themselves on those - from where I'm sitting they seem like a pretty obvious recipe for disaster.
The two people in that case on the Gold Coast where the girl fell from the high rise met on tinder I think , his behaviour after she died was similar too .
He went out and got a pizza. This guy surfed the net for hardcore porn and information about how to dispose of a body and clean a crime scene. Then he went out the next night on another tinder date. Not normal behaviour
I know nothing about this case, but I have seen people do weird shit following a traumatic event. Not sure there is 'normal' behaviour.
There is abnormal behaviour though. Trying to dispose the body is probably normal. A tinder date the next night? Shouldn't a remorseful person be too much of a mess?
Remorse isn't on trial though.
In this day and age of feelings fake news and simplifying all aspects of society life it's easy to forget that, at close inspection, our serious laws are very well designed, all things considered.
We've lost a lot of objectivity in our lives among a cloud of unhelpful and counter productive emotion.
It lends weight to the act being deliberate though. If the act wasn't deliberate, you would expect someone to show remorse. How he acted after the fact is 100% relevant.
No. Your scenario jails an innocent murder accused for behaving ugly around a dead body.
You don't get to opine on what is acceptable behaviour post death. You only get to decide if an unlawful death took place.
There is a difference between how the world works versus how you want it to work
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@Siam said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 said in Grace Millane:
@Siam said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 said in Grace Millane:
@Crazy-Horse said in Grace Millane:
@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@jegga said in Grace Millane:
@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@jegga said in Grace Millane:
@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
@jegga said in Grace Millane:
@Siam said in Grace Millane:
@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:
while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.
Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him
I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.
Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for
There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.
It also killed off (or misdirected) a lot of damaging comments regarding safety of tourists in NZ.
Or even a combination of the two.Tourists die here occasionally unfortunately. I don’t recall a similar display of public emotional incontinence from Helen Clark when Birget Bauer died .
I think the real danger factor here was not the country it happened in but dating apps like tinder which seems to be getting glossed over a bit . I think hooking up with someone you don’t know outside of their Facebook profile in a foreign country is incredibly risky . I’m sure if you’re a nutter like this guy a traveler with less contacts and therefore people to notice she’s missing is an attractive target .Your thoughts @snowy ?
Without a doubt. Going way back people's sexual partners were almost always known to them through family and friends. That's obviously changed over time but the dating apps have thrown it into overdrive. They're a great place for stalkers and creeps to hang out - they have an app that actually lists a bunch of potential victims in their area for them.
I would advise extreme caution to young women putting themselves on those - from where I'm sitting they seem like a pretty obvious recipe for disaster.
The two people in that case on the Gold Coast where the girl fell from the high rise met on tinder I think , his behaviour after she died was similar too .
He went out and got a pizza. This guy surfed the net for hardcore porn and information about how to dispose of a body and clean a crime scene. Then he went out the next night on another tinder date. Not normal behaviour
I know nothing about this case, but I have seen people do weird shit following a traumatic event. Not sure there is 'normal' behaviour.
There is abnormal behaviour though. Trying to dispose the body is probably normal. A tinder date the next night? Shouldn't a remorseful person be too much of a mess?
Remorse isn't on trial though.
In this day and age of feelings fake news and simplifying all aspects of society life it's easy to forget that, at close inspection, our serious laws are very well designed, all things considered.
We've lost a lot of objectivity in our lives among a cloud of unhelpful and counter productive emotion.
It lends weight to the act being deliberate though. If the act wasn't deliberate, you would expect someone to show remorse. How he acted after the fact is 100% relevant.
No. Your scenario jails an innocent murder accused for behaving ugly around a dead body.
You don't get to opine on what is acceptable behaviour post death. You only get to decide if an unlawful death took place.
There is a difference between how the world works versus how you want it to work
Nah. This is how the world works. How he acted after the death is 100% relevant and is part of the prosecution case. That isn't how I want the world to work. That is what the prosecution have included in their case. It is actually happening.
Also this guy is already going to jail. That has already been decided.
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@hydro11 said in Grace Millane:
My question for you guys is what evidence would you require to find someone guilty of a strangulation murder? Couldn't any defendant just say it was consensual?
It's simple. You watch whatever he does for 48 hours afterwards and sentence from that 100% relevant behaviour.
It's how the world works dummy😉
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@hydro11 it'll come down to the coroner 's ruling on the nature of her death and the contributing factors. If she happened to die from an unknown or unforeseeable side effect of their sexual activity then that's quite different to a finding of far too much force being used (and/or for too long a period) that could only result in death. The latter would likely be positioned as murder, whereas the former - or the grey areas in between, could be manslaughter or ??
Echo the focus on their encounter and what lead to her tragic death, not his actions afterwards. It's super hard to divorce them from one another, but the trial is about the nature of her death, not how odd and abhorrent his behaviour afterwards appears to people.
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@Paekakboyz said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 it'll come down to the coroner 's ruling on the nature of her death and the contributing factors. If she happened to die from an unknown or unforeseeable side effect of their sexual activity then that's quite different to a finding of far too much force being used (and/or for too long a period) that could only result in death. The latter would likely be positioned as murder, whereas the former - or the grey areas in between, could be manslaughter or ??
Echo the focus on their encounter and what lead to her tragic death, not his actions afterwards. It's super hard to divorce them from one another, but the trial is about the nature of her death, not how odd and abhorrent his behaviour afterwards appears to people.
The Coroner won't rule on the death until after the High Court trial. Do you mean the pathologist?
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@Siam said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 said in Grace Millane:
My question for you guys is what evidence would you require to find someone guilty of a strangulation murder? Couldn't any defendant just say it was consensual?
It's simple. You watch whatever he does for 48 hours afterwards and sentence from that 100% relevant behaviour.
It's how the world works dummy😉
I actually wanted to enter a genuine discussion with you. It's a shame you don't want to.
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given there is allegedly blood splatter in a few places in the room, the sexual strangulation angle gets weaker IMO...
All that may have been part of some bizaare sex act that went wrong, but I agree with @hydro11 above that his beahviour will have some bearing on things, there are 12 humans on that jury, they will be influenced by what they believe is rational/irrational/guilt-laden behaviour.
I will add that I do like the way they present the facts to jurors before they send them away to deliberate (I believe a change that was made in the past few years) almost like a pick-a-path type book.
This will ensure the JUrors all fully understand what they need to be certain of before this or that decision.
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@taniwharugby the only explanation offered regarding the blood is that she was bleeding from the nose and mouth after strangulation. No evidence offered so far of anything else and I am pretty certain it would have been by now.
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@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:
@Crucial so assuming she died of strangulation, they had one session that caused the blood got up wandered around bleeding but had another crack that caused her death.
No.I think you may want to read that blood evidence again. From what I gather she was lying on the floor and had been bleeding onto the carpet. He tried to clean that blood up and banged to spread it into a bigger patch. Another patch was very circular like it was from the bottom of a bucket. The 'splatter' was consistent with being flicked there on moving the body.
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I don't know how much stock juries take into pattern of behaviour. I'm still not convinced of the murder charge. The guy seems to have issues, but premeditated killing? Seems more like a spur of the moment thing in response to her maybe having second thoughts