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@voodoo said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@NTA said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Snowy said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
They are nowhere even remotely close to living a zero carbon life.
Didn't see anyone say that? Who was it? I just said solar made economic sense. Nothing hypocritical about that.
Something is still better than nothing also.
Not in the Denierverse. It's called "Gore's Law".
And when you point out what a pile of straw man shit they're holding up, they'll accuse you of the same thing.
I definitely saw you make that statement @Snowy, no backtracking now. I believe it was in response to @NTA claiming that 110% of scientists worldwide agreed with him on the science.
Gonna take me a while to be carbon neutral. I just worked out that I have been responsible for burning over 90,000,000 kg of fossil fuels (there were about 900,000 other people involved though) and that doesn't include cars or boats.
Carbon neutral I am not. -
@voodoo said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback oh dear Baron, you really are getting a bit sensitive these days. I had no idea that "avalanche" or "myriad" were such emotive words for you! I shall try to tone down my religious zealotry, though it is hard when the climate gods speak to loudly to me.
In the interim, if you or @Winger could have a go at explaining to me how renewables are at the same time killing our economy and also a financial boon for the Government, I'd be ever so grateful.
Killing the economy? Not yet.
But the subsidies given to these come with massive risk, they tilt the competitive landscape and force non chosen industries out. All at tax payer expense, and that's just the start, when govt starts to decide what industries should succeed and which should die, it is not good.
If renewables make economic sense, then great, and clearly some of you have had a good crack at it, but the relaity is that things like electric cars just dont stack up as yet for most people and still rely on govt subsidies. I would prefer taxpayer money be spent on real problems in society, not so that middle class folks can feel good at driving an electric vehicle.But it is isnt just subsidies you just cannot seperate the climate change movement form far left marxist ideology nowadays, reasonable goo d willed folks might see a difference, but the sad reality is that the movement has been completely hijacked byt the extreme left. Do you deny that?
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Killing the economy? Not yet.
Well, not at all in fact. The recent Snowy tender for renewables saw the winning projects bidding in at low $40/MWh and solar at low $50/MWh. Yes those projects provide intermittent power, but firming can be done for something like $30 which bring them well inside the cost of new coal, even if you could get someone to actually build it. The reality is that there aren't any genuine subsidies anymore for renewables given the value of an LGC is effectively heading fast to zero.
Note, I am only speaking about Australia here, I have no in-depth knowledge of other countries.
One of the main reasons that renewables are now so cheap compared to other generation (other than falling capital costs of course) is the cost of finance. You can find equity at 8% and debt at BBSY + 1.50% for projects with an offtake the quality Snowy. At leverage of 70% (you can't get higher given the PPA prices are so low), thats a WACC of < 5%which is pretty damn low. I have no idea what returns investors would want in Aus for a nuclear plant, but I can guarantee they'd want a significant premium until COD at least. One of the biggest risks here for constructing new build projects is connection - and any delays or potential delays massively increase that risk. With the history of recent nuclear overruns, you'd need a big old balance sheet standing behind the construction along with a pretty substantial sponsor. As for new build coal plant, good luck raising money at all .
The reality is that Australia needs new generation to replace ageing coal. This isn't a climate-driven event, its just old, unreliable kit reaching the end of its life. With the current restrictions on gas, we are looking at wind/solar + battery pumped (hydro, lithium-ion, flow, molten salt, whatever), plus some gas peaking. I can't see any forthcoming approvals for nuclear or coal any time soon.
things like electric cars just dont stack up as yet for most people and still rely on govt subsidies
I agree that right now EV's don't make much sense, they are too expensive still, we still need to power them with predominantly coal, and we haven't got the smart grid to use them as batteries. But all that will change fast, and its definitely only going in 1 direction
the sad reality is that the movement has been completely hijacked byt the extreme left. Do you deny that?
I most definitely don't deny that there are some far-left lunatics out there that get fa to much media coverage. They also operate in the Green parties around the world and unfortunately do way more harm than good (in Aus here they were responsible for blocking very sensible legislation that would have us in a far better position than we are in now).
But there is a much bigger portion of the population and industry that takes a pragmatic approach to this issue. They believe in the climate science, but want orderly transition to a lower carbon future. Orderly shut down of coal as they come to the end of their lives, or earlier if there are viable alternatives. Orderly build-out of renewables and the grid support required. A bipartisan approach to climate policy, and ideally a depoliticization (sp) of debate. This group if far less vocal on social media, and is much too boring for the media to latch on to.
Unfortunately many deniers and even some sensible folk only see the lunatics and think they represent the rest of us.
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@voodoo Good post. I dont think we are a million miles part, but yet hold very different views.. if that makes sense.
You seem to put more stock in the IPCC verison of the future than I do. I think we can agree that f there are cleaner ways of creating energy that are economically viable without massive govt subsidies then they should be used.
I get more concerned about the limits put on personal freedoms (usually via punitive taxes etc), I see no reason that the govt should be given more and more and more power so they can supposedly save us. If the IPCC version is proven corretc over time, then the govt wont ever be the ones to save us. -
@voodoo said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
I agree that right now EV's don't make much sense, they are too expensive still, we still need to power them with predominantly coal,
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
I think we can agree that f there are cleaner ways of creating energy that are economically viable without massive govt subsidies then they should be used.
Two good full posts there.
My comments though:EV price, yes, which is one of the reasons that I haven't got one in spite of having solar as I have a battery. They do make sense for some though. As has been mentioned the power companies don't pay much for surplus solar so running an EV makes a lot of sense. Effectively you get about %10 (8% at worst) return on investment in an EV compared to petrol if you have solar generation and do average mileage. That is likely to go up too as fuel costs rise. Find me low risk 8% return in NZ!
Again, as an economic exercise even EV can work and NZ only has Huntly left as coal I think from an environmental view? Different to Aus obviously.
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Update on power generation and spot pricing in Australia. It's baking hot under the sun today almost everywhere, so aircon will be pumping:
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@chimoaus said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Its official, yesterday was the hottest ever day recorded in Australia overall at 40.9. It maybe even hotter today.
I don't think there can be any debate the planet is warming, the question is why.
NZ is very cold at the moment. Therefore the planet isn't warming.....
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The earth has been hotter in the past; the earth has been cooler in the past.
The qualifying factor in the date above is “recorded history,” in other words, when man recorded it.
But if the earth has been both hotter and cooler before mankind existed, is it even remotely possible, just a teeny-weeny little bit, that maybe mankind isn’t exclusively responsible for climate change, and that maybe the sun and water vapour are factors too?
Just asking, in good faith, before we’re forced to abandon civilization to make temperatures drop maybe 1/100th of a degree.
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@Salacious-Crumb said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
before we’re forced to abandon civilization to make temperatures drop maybe 1/100th of a degree.
I don't think anybody is going to be doing that.
Interesting that the shipping industry were called out on the news last night. I mentioned them earlier and good to see that they are trying to clean up their act. Before I get any statements about economics - yes 90% of freight is done by sea and that won't change but they really don't have to burn the crap they do. Good to see that they are willing as it won't cost much. Hong Kong forced them to burn cleaner fuel when going into port quite some years ago.
As a slightly different slant on reducing emissions and having spent 15 years in Hong Kong, breathing in bloody awful air (Beijing and India are worse) then we are still better off with clean energy - climate change is then relevant, but not the key driver to a less polluted environment and man made climate change deniers can't deny air quality is shit in a lot of the world's cities.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback pretty warm up here, but more about average than above or below...less than ave rainfall for the year though, well at my house anyway.
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@Salacious-Crumb said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
The earth has been hotter in the past; the earth has been cooler in the past.
The qualifying factor in the date above is “recorded history,” in other words, when man recorded it.
But if the earth has been both hotter and cooler before mankind existed, is it even remotely possible, just a teeny-weeny little bit, that maybe mankind isn’t exclusively responsible for climate change, and that maybe the sun and water vapour are factors too?
Just asking, in good faith, before we’re forced to abandon civilization to make temperatures drop maybe 1/100th of a degree.
Don't take any notice if the graph above (the first post). Its crap
Climate change is just a weird modern day end of world cult. Where CO2 somehow through a process called back radiation (radiation leaving earth and returning about a second later) creates more warming than the sun does. And this process will almost destroy planet earth
Our sin now though is driving car and heating our house. And we must pay indulgences for our sinfulness in the form of contributions to climate funds etc.
Its amazing what garbage people believe. If the elite said there was health giving mineral on the moon and we all need to pay into a fund to get the minerals and repeated it over and over and over etc in the papers most would demand the Govt pay into this fund to save lives.
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@Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
You are mixing up two issues. One is REAL air pollution.
CO2 though is not a real pollutant. Without CO2 there is no life on earth
I'm not mixing up the issues. I clearly said "a different slant". I'm also well aware of what CO2 is, thanks.
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@Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Salacious-Crumb said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
The earth has been hotter in the past; the earth has been cooler in the past.
The qualifying factor in the date above is “recorded history,” in other words, when man recorded it.
But if the earth has been both hotter and cooler before mankind existed, is it even remotely possible, just a teeny-weeny little bit, that maybe mankind isn’t exclusively responsible for climate change, and that maybe the sun and water vapour are factors too?
Just asking, in good faith, before we’re forced to abandon civilization to make temperatures drop maybe 1/100th of a degree.
Don't take any notice if the graph above (the first post). Its crap
Climate change is just a weird modern day end of world cult. Where CO2 somehow through a process called back radiation (radiation leaving earth and returning about a second later) creates more warming than the sun does. And this process will almost destroy planet earth
Our sin now though is driving car and heating our house. And we must pay indulgences for our sinfulness in the form of contributions to climate funds etc.
Its amazing what garbage people believe. If the elite said there was health giving mineral on the moon and we all need to pay into a fund to get the minerals and repeated it over and over and over etc in the papers most would demand the Govt pay into this fund to save lives.
I could be wrong but I think people believing all kinds of moronic conspiracy theories wasn't as prevalent before the internet . Now it seems like theres hordes of morons who will never be convinced 9/11 wasn't an inside job or even more dangerously they believe nonsense like homeopathy or that the measles vaccine causes autism. 72 people died in Samoa and these nutters are still posting lies about vaccines on social media.
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@jegga said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Salacious-Crumb said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
The earth has been hotter in the past; the earth has been cooler in the past.
The qualifying factor in the date above is “recorded history,” in other words, when man recorded it.
But if the earth has been both hotter and cooler before mankind existed, is it even remotely possible, just a teeny-weeny little bit, that maybe mankind isn’t exclusively responsible for climate change, and that maybe the sun and water vapour are factors too?
Just asking, in good faith, before we’re forced to abandon civilization to make temperatures drop maybe 1/100th of a degree.
Don't take any notice if the graph above (the first post). Its crap
Climate change is just a weird modern day end of world cult. Where CO2 somehow through a process called back radiation (radiation leaving earth and returning about a second later) creates more warming than the sun does. And this process will almost destroy planet earth
Our sin now though is driving car and heating our house. And we must pay indulgences for our sinfulness in the form of contributions to climate funds etc.
Its amazing what garbage people believe. If the elite said there was health giving mineral on the moon and we all need to pay into a fund to get the minerals and repeated it over and over and over etc in the papers most would demand the Govt pay into this fund to save lives.
I could be wrong but I think people believing all kinds of moronic conspiracy theories wasn't as prevalent before the internet . Now it seems like theres hordes of morons who will never be convinced 9/11 wasn't an inside job or even more dangerously they believe nonsense like homeopathy or that the measles vaccine causes autism. 72 people died in Samoa and these nutters are still posting lies about vaccines on social media.
Try to stick to the topic. Or do you always do this in a group. Butt in with irrelevant crap
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@Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@jegga said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Salacious-Crumb said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
The earth has been hotter in the past; the earth has been cooler in the past.
The qualifying factor in the date above is “recorded history,” in other words, when man recorded it.
But if the earth has been both hotter and cooler before mankind existed, is it even remotely possible, just a teeny-weeny little bit, that maybe mankind isn’t exclusively responsible for climate change, and that maybe the sun and water vapour are factors too?
Just asking, in good faith, before we’re forced to abandon civilization to make temperatures drop maybe 1/100th of a degree.
Don't take any notice if the graph above (the first post). Its crap
Climate change is just a weird modern day end of world cult. Where CO2 somehow through a process called back radiation (radiation leaving earth and returning about a second later) creates more warming than the sun does. And this process will almost destroy planet earth
Our sin now though is driving car and heating our house. And we must pay indulgences for our sinfulness in the form of contributions to climate funds etc.
Its amazing what garbage people believe. If the elite said there was health giving mineral on the moon and we all need to pay into a fund to get the minerals and repeated it over and over and over etc in the papers most would demand the Govt pay into this fund to save lives.
I could be wrong but I think people believing all kinds of moronic conspiracy theories wasn't as prevalent before the internet . Now it seems like theres hordes of morons who will never be convinced 9/11 wasn't an inside job or even more dangerously they believe nonsense like homeopathy or that the measles vaccine causes autism. 72 people died in Samoa and these nutters are still posting lies about vaccines on social media.
Try to stick to the topic. Or do you always do this in a group. Butt in with irrelevant crap
Odd response. I was responding to a point you made and agreeing with you . Don’t you agree there’s far too much bullshit science being peddled by useful idiots for people who ultimately use it to gain influence power or money ?
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@taniwharugby said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback pretty warm up here, but more about average than above or below...less than ave rainfall for the year though, well at my house anyway.
Sorry my bad.. the climate emergency is back on. Let me know if it cools down tomorrow and we can downgrade to DEFCON 17
Climate Change