Coronavirus - Australia
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@NTA said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Given how many households in Australia live nearly pay cheque to pay cheque, 70% of the median income won't cover all their expenses
It's 80% according to the figures I saw (39k on 48k), and it will cover their expenses in a lot of cases IF they and the company they work for meet the hurdles. But that is no guarantee. The figure the government is using has been based on assumptions that aren't tested.
It will cover their expenses for the still-employed baristas and casuals in hospitality, well those who aren't now out of work because government policy forced the closure of their industry. In fact they'll end up better off.
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
So my question is how much debt burden do you find acceptable?
How long is a piece of string?
I answered your question.
Ask some of the proto-capitalists on here and they'll happily tell you tax is theft and small government is the way to go. Which is great right up until shit like this happens and suddenly you need a dose of big government socialism
My view is: whatever is required.
That's not an answer.
If they're good or bad decisions, it doesn't actually matter, because you don't get a do-over. They're decisions, they're made by the government we elected, and we live with the consequences. The economy was already half-fucked under the last 20 years of mismanagement, from both sides of government, while the rich got richer through schemes that you need a certain amount of influence to access. The poor increasingly get left behind.
Well, what's the point in discussing it really?
BTW the Federal Government was in a net positive financial position just over a decade ago.
$130B in a 2 trillion dollar economy should be easily absorbed - that's only a decade of franking credits with a bit of fossil fuel subsidy on the side, and throw in some politician travel expenses to boot.
You do realise government revenues aren't GDP? But I guess to Keynesians, there's no amount of other people's money you can't spend.
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@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
To further the notion that we're in lockdown in NSW (except for the name), I read this morning "Anyone in NSW who leaves their house without a "reasonable excuse" could spend up to six months in prison and face an $11,000 fine under an emergency ministerial directive gazetted overnight."
Also we had another reduction of new NSW cases, with 114 recorded yesterday.
This is my big problem with how this has been playing out - there has been no announcement to say that the restrictions are compulsory and Morrison himself said they only advised. How can they push that through overnight without notifying the public. Or is it there and ready to go, but dated for a couple of days in the future to allow a proper announcement?
Do you have a link to the story?
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@Nepia said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
To further the notion that we're in lockdown in NSW (except for the name), I read this morning "Anyone in NSW who leaves their house without a "reasonable excuse" could spend up to six months in prison and face an $11,000 fine under an emergency ministerial directive gazetted overnight."
Also we had another reduction of new NSW cases, with 114 recorded yesterday.
This is my big problem with how this has been playing out - there has been no announcement to say that the restrictions are compulsory and Morrison himself said they only advised. How can they push that through overnight without notifying the public. Or is it there and ready to go, but dated for a couple of days in the future to allow a proper announcement?
Morrison can't enforce the penalties though, as it is a matter for the States.
The Premier in NSW has been pretty clear for the past few days in communicating the penalties for doing the wrong thing, and they have publicised a few cases where people have been jailed for breaking quarantine.
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@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Nepia said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
To further the notion that we're in lockdown in NSW (except for the name), I read this morning "Anyone in NSW who leaves their house without a "reasonable excuse" could spend up to six months in prison and face an $11,000 fine under an emergency ministerial directive gazetted overnight."
Also we had another reduction of new NSW cases, with 114 recorded yesterday.
This is my big problem with how this has been playing out - there has been no announcement to say that the restrictions are compulsory and Morrison himself said they only advised. How can they push that through overnight without notifying the public. Or is it there and ready to go, but dated for a couple of days in the future to allow a proper announcement?
Morrison can't enforce the penalties though, as it is a matter for the States.
The Premier in NSW has been pretty clear for the past few days in communicating the penalties for doing the wrong thing, and they have publicised a few cases where people have been jailed for breaking quarantine.
Look, I'm not taking a shot at the politicians for political reasons (I have no sway in Australian politics). But, do you think that it has been communicated effectively to the public that the 'strong advice' is enforceable by law now?
This is not quite the same as those being ordered to remain in quarantine and breaking quarantine.
The barber shop near me was open this morning and had a customer in it.
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@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Well, what's the point in discussing it really?
Because we're in "lockdown", and I'm bored.
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
That's not an answer.
You said "a few thousand deaths" which is a fairly hairy number if you're putting it on top of existing influenza deaths, and the emergencies that might not get serviced in an overwhelmed medical system. But hey its mostly old people in the way of the morning coffee and bagel, so... greater good, right?
I'll go with $400B. They're at about 80% of that Federally, with some small change coming in from State and local governments. Leaves me with some wiggle room.
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@Nepia said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Look, I'm not taking a shot at the politicians for political reasons (I have no sway in Australian politics). But, do you think that it has been communicated effectively to the public that the 'strong advice' is enforceable by law now?
This is not quite the same as those being ordered to remain in quarantine and breaking quarantine.
Lot of concern over this - they put it through late last night and there is a fair bit of angst on social media that cops will go heavy-handed on this.
They've got their own revenue to generate, after all.
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@Nepia said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Look, I'm not taking a shot at the politicians for political reasons (I have no sway in Australian politics). But, do you think that it has been communicated effectively to the public that the 'strong advice' is enforceable by law now?
This is not quite the same as those being ordered to remain in quarantine and breaking quarantine.
I think the message has gotten through in the last 12-24 hours.
I just went for a walk with my family and was told by a passer-by (at a safe distance) that there were 'cops down on the beach' so be careful.
I'm told in Sydney's east there has been a noticeable change in the last two days.
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@NTA said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
That's not an answer.
You said "a few thousand deaths" which is a fairly hairy number if you're putting it on top of existing influenza deaths, and the emergencies that might not get serviced in an overwhelmed medical system. But hey its mostly old people in the way of the morning coffee and bagel, so... greater good, right?
I don't think it would be on top. As I said, they largely come from the same cohort so it would more likely be a really bad flu season. I see Australia as being more like Singapore than Italy. 170,000 people die in this country each year so a one or two percent increase isn't hairy.
I'll go with $400B. They're at about 80% of that Federally, with some small change coming in from State and local governments. Leaves me with some wiggle room.
LOL Are we going to touch on the obvious notion of foregoing future benefits, spending money on interest payments instead of public services..?
Christ, why not $800 billion?
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@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
As I said, they largely come from the same cohort so it would more likely be a really bad flu season
Did you get a flu shot this year?
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
LOL Are we going to touch on the obvious notion of foregoing future benefits, spending money on interest payments instead of public services..?
LOL are you paying attention to a Liberal government that has been eroding public services as a matter of course for most of the last decade? Get back to me when privatising electricity was supposed to increase competition and lower my bills
This is NOT a political system that thinks any further ahead than the next election. I don't think opportunity cost is high on their list of shit to do.
Christ, why not $800 billion?
Now you're just being silly.
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@NTA said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
As I said, they largely come from the same cohort so it would more likely be a really bad flu season
Did you get a flu shot this year?
No, I'm not in the risk category.
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
LOL Are we going to touch on the obvious notion of foregoing future benefits, spending money on interest payments instead of public services..?
LOL are you paying attention to a Liberal government that has been eroding public services as a matter of course for most of the last decade? Get back to me when privatising electricity was supposed to increase competition and lower my bills
How have they eroded them when they've been the recipients of record funding?
This is NOT a political system that thinks any further ahead than the next election. I don't think opportunity cost is high on their list of shit to do.
Because as an electorate we don't force them too.
Christ, why not $800 billion?
Now you're just being silly.
mmm
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@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Also we had another reduction of new NSW cases, with 114 recorded yesterday.
Fairly good couple of days nationally, being single digit percentage growth. Longer term chart heading negative on trend for case growth percentage, and the general curve is starting to nose over.
We might have half a rugby season after all!
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@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Because as an electorate we don't force them too.
I'm interested to hear how that can be achieved, having ranted about it earlier. The candidates we're given are chosen from a party system that doesn't seem to always reward excellence, so the choices we're given from the majors are suitably mediocre.
Do we need to vote Green or Independent to make a change? Not sure One Nation has much to offer but more grift.
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@NTA said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Because as an electorate we don't force them too.
I'm interested to hear how that can be achieved, having ranted about it earlier. The candidates we're given are chosen from a party system that doesn't seem to always reward excellence, so the choices we're given from the majors are suitably mediocre.
Do we need to vote Green or Independent to make a change? Not sure One Nation has much to offer but more grift.
Our systems are such that political parties spend a large chunk of each electoral cycle working on how to assume power or to keep it. Add in NZs MMP system that means any major decisions such as the big decisions made by the Lange government are difficult to implement and political suicide
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I'm a lefty and unionist, but like democracy, capitalism works better than any other system we've tried. My interest is in making capitalism and the economy for people in it, not the other way around. Well-regulated capitalism is a powerful tool for raising living standards. Poorly-regulated or unregulated capitalism will probably do still do that, but not nearly as well.
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@Godder said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Well-regulated capitalism is a powerful tool for raising living standards. Poorly-regulated or unregulated capitalism will probably do still do that, but not nearly as well.
Rising tide lifts all boats, definitely. Still got to have a social safety net tho, and a well-run market economy should be able to provide that through the necessary taxation and regulation. Privatisation is no guarantee of efficiency or high achievement.