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@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
1 confirmed case, 4 probable (think 3 of these are at St Margarets)
1 more death, women in 90s at St Margarets.
@Damo I'll be staying at home for L3 and likely rostered at L2 as we are meant to be moving office in August and if we all went to work, be no social distancing with our cramped space.
We are having a split roster. My firm is old fashioned in that the lawyers still all have offices so it will work ok so long as not too many in at a time. No face to face clients though.
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@Damo we went from 8 staff to 18 in NOvember (have had 2 start during lockdown) so knocked down walls, lost offices and jammed us in until the offices we are moving into are finished being built, which I expect will now be push back a month or so too.
first world problems!
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@Damo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Damo I also think that different societies/cultures behave differently and what works for one won't necessarily work somewhere else.
I reckon adding the long weekend to our lockdown shows our Govt. thinks we need to be hand held through this.
Agree first paragraph. Some societies don't need strict rules to ensure that the population acts appropriately to look after it's vulnerable people. Other societies need strong government rule, otherwise it's every body for themselves.
I agree with the govt on your second paragraph. We do.
More to the point, I also think a few extra days has allowed businesses to plan for how they will function in level 3. If they announced on Monday that we're into level 3 on Wednesday, some businesses might not have planned properly. My office is a case in point. We are ready to go tomorrow, on Wednesday we wouldn't have been.
What would be worse for the economy is level 3 being a disaster, and having to return to level 4.
I really struggle with this attitude, and quite honestly it makes me pretty angry. Who the hell decided we needed hand holding for a long weekend? And what have them the right to make that decision? The government stole 4 trading days from business who were ready to go.
The fact that your business wouldn't have been ready is totally on you, and absolutely not the fault of every other business that was more prepared.
If you're not ready to open, then don't fucking open. We trust people and businesses every day to obey a large list of laws and regulations. Operating under L3 guidelines is just another one, and we shouldn't hold the entire economy hostage because a few businesses can't be trusted.
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So much knowledge in hindsight being thrown around.
When NZ had to make a decision on strategy a hell of a lot of the outcomes and comparisons weren't available.
Every country has had to make a call based on their own circumstances, so to compare, and especially to declare over-reaction is not only misleading, but unfair.
The comparison with Oz has been very misleading from many quarters. Although the restrictions are less by decree, in practice people are pretty much following what NZ has made official. There are certainly some areas of business that have been able to lessen the immediate economic impact by themselves though.
Along with the Oz approach came increased risk that it may be harder to get to a 'normal' level as quickly as an eradication plan.
If that risk hasn't eventuated then I think that is great. We (at least the NZ cabinet) had to decide whether to take that risk or follow advice that a more certain path was achievable.I think it could be an excellent outcome if NZ 'eradicates' quickly and Australia can declare confidence around community transmission as well. If we can get the border open and work together while waiting on a vax it could be a catalyst for a new round of CER and sorting out the stupidly messy immigration/residency situation that we currently have.
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@Crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
When NZ had to make a decision on strategy a hell of a lot of the outcomes and comparisons weren't available.
Which is why I've not been critical of the initial decision. But I am very critical of the refusal to come out of lockdown early, and incensed by the decision to extend it, when we absolutely did have data and information from around the world, and from our own observations.
We are so different from Italy, Spain, NYC, in so many important ways as it relates to this thing. We had a great oportunity to manage our response appropriately and proportionately, and we have done significant and material damage to the economy unnecessarily.
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@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Damo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Damo I also think that different societies/cultures behave differently and what works for one won't necessarily work somewhere else.
I reckon adding the long weekend to our lockdown shows our Govt. thinks we need to be hand held through this.
Agree first paragraph. Some societies don't need strict rules to ensure that the population acts appropriately to look after it's vulnerable people. Other societies need strong government rule, otherwise it's every body for themselves.
I agree with the govt on your second paragraph. We do.
More to the point, I also think a few extra days has allowed businesses to plan for how they will function in level 3. If they announced on Monday that we're into level 3 on Wednesday, some businesses might not have planned properly. My office is a case in point. We are ready to go tomorrow, on Wednesday we wouldn't have been.
What would be worse for the economy is level 3 being a disaster, and having to return to level 4.
I really struggle with this attitude, and quite honestly it makes me pretty angry. Who the hell decided we needed hand holding for a long weekend? And what have them the right to make that decision? The government stole 4 trading days from business who were ready to go.
The fact that your business wouldn't have been ready is totally on you, and absolutely not the fault of every other business that was more prepared.
If you're not ready to open, then don't fucking open. We trust people and businesses every day to obey a large list of laws and regulations. Operating under L3 guidelines is just another one, and we shouldn't hold the entire economy hostage because a few businesses can't be trusted.
Well I don't trust businesses who aren't ready to open not to open. It's great that you do, but I don't know what you base that on.
For us it's no big deal, our only public facing aspect at the moment is in court, and only some hearings are done in person most aren't.
What worries me, and no doubt worried the government is the businesses who are public facing and would open without much thought for others.
The other thing that worries me is that you say you are angry about it. Don't get angry about someone else having a different view to you mate. That is just silly.
Seriously, if something someone posts in a very civil political debate makes you angry, perhaps you shouldn't partake in political discussions online. Reasonable people can disagree on this sort of stuff.
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@Damo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
What worries me, and no doubt worried the government is the businesses who are public facing and would open without much thought for others.
That and people thinking it is a long weekend, let's go away...I think there is some merit in our public needing to be baby stepped through this.
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@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
When NZ had to make a decision on strategy a hell of a lot of the outcomes and comparisons weren't available.
Which is why I've not been critical of the initial decision. But I am very critical of the refusal to come out of lockdown early, and incensed by the decision to extend it, when we absolutely did have data and information from around the world, and from our own observations.
We are so different from Italy, Spain, NYC, in so many important ways as it relates to this thing. We had a great oportunity to manage our response appropriately and proportionately, and we have done significant and material damage to the economy unnecessarily.
To be fair though, the analysis of what has happened in those other countries is only just starting to become clear. Italy, for example, had areas (Lombardy?) that had Covid transmitting freely for weeks before they realised because they were classifying it as something else. Once set in in was much harder to stop.
Now things have calmed down there a bit they have been able to trace back and work this out. A month or so ago it appeared that Covid was very virulent and spread quickly from first identified case.
As for the decision made 1 week ago we still weren't as good on our physical tracing as we needed to be to eliminate the possibility of 'unknown' pockets that could sent us backward quickly and waste the gains made. I do think that we are now in that position.
I do get the caution in moving back toward normal. I think if we had gone to L2 from L4, that sudden explosion of movements would have destroyed tracing capabilities and the risk if cases had started popping up would have been too high. We would have had to go jail and not pass Go (obviously further fucking up economic factors)
However, if the indicators stay as they are I do expect L3 to be kept at a minimum with maybe a staggered move to L2 straight after.Now, if you look back at the length of time and reduction then compare it with countries like the UK I think that retrospectively we will be seen as reducing risk effectively at low damage.
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@Damo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Damo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Damo I also think that different societies/cultures behave differently and what works for one won't necessarily work somewhere else.
I reckon adding the long weekend to our lockdown shows our Govt. thinks we need to be hand held through this.
Agree first paragraph. Some societies don't need strict rules to ensure that the population acts appropriately to look after it's vulnerable people. Other societies need strong government rule, otherwise it's every body for themselves.
I agree with the govt on your second paragraph. We do.
More to the point, I also think a few extra days has allowed businesses to plan for how they will function in level 3. If they announced on Monday that we're into level 3 on Wednesday, some businesses might not have planned properly. My office is a case in point. We are ready to go tomorrow, on Wednesday we wouldn't have been.
What would be worse for the economy is level 3 being a disaster, and having to return to level 4.
I really struggle with this attitude, and quite honestly it makes me pretty angry. Who the hell decided we needed hand holding for a long weekend? And what have them the right to make that decision? The government stole 4 trading days from business who were ready to go.
The fact that your business wouldn't have been ready is totally on you, and absolutely not the fault of every other business that was more prepared.
If you're not ready to open, then don't fucking open. We trust people and businesses every day to obey a large list of laws and regulations. Operating under L3 guidelines is just another one, and we shouldn't hold the entire economy hostage because a few businesses can't be trusted.
Well I don't trust businesses who aren't ready to open not to open. It's great that you do, but I don't know what you base that on.
For us it's no big deal, our only public facing aspect at the moment is in court, and only some hearings are done in person most aren't.
What worries me, and no doubt worried the government is the businesses who are public facing and would open without much thought for others.
The other thing that worries me is that you say you are angry about it. Don't get angry about someone else having a different view to you mate. That is just silly.
Seriously, if something someone posts in a very civil political debate makes you angry, perhaps you shouldn't partake in political discussions online. Reasonable people can disagree on this sort of stuff.
It was your attitude that made me angry - you're not ready so the whole economy should wait for you. Pretty selfish IMO, and yeah, makes me pretty frustrated.
You may not don't trust others to act within the law, but where do you draw that line? Do you trust them to pay taxes? To follow OH&S guidelines?
The arbitrary extension for the long weekend was nothing to do with giving business more time anyway as they could have announced a week earlier that the original end date was going to be maintained. It was purely a government overreaching and taking away personal liberties for their agenda.
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Hearing from friends in the UK and Ireland, they are facing long lockdowns right now. My colleague in Ireland said that there is talk that pubs in Ireland won't open until late this year 😱. Not sure how likely that is. Another guy is a dentist outside London. He expects to be off work much longer than us
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
Hearing from friends in the UK and Ireland, they are facing long lockdowns right now. My colleague in Ireland said that there is talk that pubs in Ireland won't open until late this year 😱. Not sure how likely that is. Another guy is a dentist outside London. He expects to be off work much longer than us
Ireland has been hit pretty hard haven’t they?
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@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Damo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Damo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Damo I also think that different societies/cultures behave differently and what works for one won't necessarily work somewhere else.
I reckon adding the long weekend to our lockdown shows our Govt. thinks we need to be hand held through this.
Agree first paragraph. Some societies don't need strict rules to ensure that the population acts appropriately to look after it's vulnerable people. Other societies need strong government rule, otherwise it's every body for themselves.
I agree with the govt on your second paragraph. We do.
More to the point, I also think a few extra days has allowed businesses to plan for how they will function in level 3. If they announced on Monday that we're into level 3 on Wednesday, some businesses might not have planned properly. My office is a case in point. We are ready to go tomorrow, on Wednesday we wouldn't have been.
What would be worse for the economy is level 3 being a disaster, and having to return to level 4.
I really struggle with this attitude, and quite honestly it makes me pretty angry. Who the hell decided we needed hand holding for a long weekend? And what have them the right to make that decision? The government stole 4 trading days from business who were ready to go.
The fact that your business wouldn't have been ready is totally on you, and absolutely not the fault of every other business that was more prepared.
If you're not ready to open, then don't fucking open. We trust people and businesses every day to obey a large list of laws and regulations. Operating under L3 guidelines is just another one, and we shouldn't hold the entire economy hostage because a few businesses can't be trusted.
Well I don't trust businesses who aren't ready to open not to open. It's great that you do, but I don't know what you base that on.
For us it's no big deal, our only public facing aspect at the moment is in court, and only some hearings are done in person most aren't.
What worries me, and no doubt worried the government is the businesses who are public facing and would open without much thought for others.
The other thing that worries me is that you say you are angry about it. Don't get angry about someone else having a different view to you mate. That is just silly.
Seriously, if something someone posts in a very civil political debate makes you angry, perhaps you shouldn't partake in political discussions online. Reasonable people can disagree on this sort of stuff.
It was your attitude that made me angry - you're not ready so the whole economy should wait for you. Pretty selfish IMO, and yeah, makes me pretty frustrated.
You may not don't trust others to act within the law, but where do you draw that line? Do you trust them to pay taxes? To follow OH&S guidelines?
The arbitrary extension for the long weekend was nothing to do with giving business more time anyway as they could have announced a week earlier that the original end date was going to be maintained. It was purely a government overreaching and taking away personal liberties for their agenda.
Mate you shouldn't ever get angry at someone who posts on a sports forum. I repeat that is extremely unhealthy and you should probably walk away if you are angry. I also think it's borderline to go around calling other people selfish because they have a different perspective to you.
I invite you to edit your post and remove the inappropriate language.
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
Hearing from friends in the UK and Ireland, they are facing long lockdowns right now. My colleague in Ireland said that there is talk that pubs in Ireland won't open until late this year 😱. Not sure how likely that is. Another guy is a dentist outside London. He expects to be off work much longer than us
Yeah. My son is still in London and doing his best to adjust his work accordingly but the situation there is quite a shambles. The buy-in from the population is nowhere near as complete as some countries and the spread is wide. It is going to take quite some time to find a safe way out.
NB: there is the slim chance that the virus could burn itself out, which for their sake I really hope happens. -
@Damo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
More to the point, I also think a few extra days has allowed businesses to plan for how they will function in level 3. If they announced on Monday that we're into level 3 on Wednesday, some businesses might not have planned properly. My office is a case in point. We are ready to go tomorrow, on Wednesday we wouldn't have been.
Am I right in thinking you work for a law firm? Why weren't you ready to go?
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@Damo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Damo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Damo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Damo I also think that different societies/cultures behave differently and what works for one won't necessarily work somewhere else.
I reckon adding the long weekend to our lockdown shows our Govt. thinks we need to be hand held through this.
Agree first paragraph. Some societies don't need strict rules to ensure that the population acts appropriately to look after it's vulnerable people. Other societies need strong government rule, otherwise it's every body for themselves.
I agree with the govt on your second paragraph. We do.
More to the point, I also think a few extra days has allowed businesses to plan for how they will function in level 3. If they announced on Monday that we're into level 3 on Wednesday, some businesses might not have planned properly. My office is a case in point. We are ready to go tomorrow, on Wednesday we wouldn't have been.
What would be worse for the economy is level 3 being a disaster, and having to return to level 4.
I really struggle with this attitude, and quite honestly it makes me pretty angry. Who the hell decided we needed hand holding for a long weekend? And what have them the right to make that decision? The government stole 4 trading days from business who were ready to go.
The fact that your business wouldn't have been ready is totally on you, and absolutely not the fault of every other business that was more prepared.
If you're not ready to open, then don't fucking open. We trust people and businesses every day to obey a large list of laws and regulations. Operating under L3 guidelines is just another one, and we shouldn't hold the entire economy hostage because a few businesses can't be trusted.
Well I don't trust businesses who aren't ready to open not to open. It's great that you do, but I don't know what you base that on.
For us it's no big deal, our only public facing aspect at the moment is in court, and only some hearings are done in person most aren't.
What worries me, and no doubt worried the government is the businesses who are public facing and would open without much thought for others.
The other thing that worries me is that you say you are angry about it. Don't get angry about someone else having a different view to you mate. That is just silly.
Seriously, if something someone posts in a very civil political debate makes you angry, perhaps you shouldn't partake in political discussions online. Reasonable people can disagree on this sort of stuff.
It was your attitude that made me angry - you're not ready so the whole economy should wait for you. Pretty selfish IMO, and yeah, makes me pretty frustrated.
You may not don't trust others to act within the law, but where do you draw that line? Do you trust them to pay taxes? To follow OH&S guidelines?
The arbitrary extension for the long weekend was nothing to do with giving business more time anyway as they could have announced a week earlier that the original end date was going to be maintained. It was purely a government overreaching and taking away personal liberties for their agenda.
Mate you shouldn't ever get angry at someone who posts on a sports forum. I repeat that is extremely unhealthy and you should probably walk away if you are angry. I also think it's borderline to go around calling other people selfish because they have a different perspective to you.
I invite you to edit your post and remove the inappropriate language.
You obviously haven't been hanging around on the fern long enough to tackle with one of the guys who used to post here. That was nothing compared to receiving a lashing from him!
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@Damo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Damo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Damo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Damo I also think that different societies/cultures behave differently and what works for one won't necessarily work somewhere else.
I reckon adding the long weekend to our lockdown shows our Govt. thinks we need to be hand held through this.
Agree first paragraph. Some societies don't need strict rules to ensure that the population acts appropriately to look after it's vulnerable people. Other societies need strong government rule, otherwise it's every body for themselves.
I agree with the govt on your second paragraph. We do.
More to the point, I also think a few extra days has allowed businesses to plan for how they will function in level 3. If they announced on Monday that we're into level 3 on Wednesday, some businesses might not have planned properly. My office is a case in point. We are ready to go tomorrow, on Wednesday we wouldn't have been.
What would be worse for the economy is level 3 being a disaster, and having to return to level 4.
I really struggle with this attitude, and quite honestly it makes me pretty angry. Who the hell decided we needed hand holding for a long weekend? And what have them the right to make that decision? The government stole 4 trading days from business who were ready to go.
The fact that your business wouldn't have been ready is totally on you, and absolutely not the fault of every other business that was more prepared.
If you're not ready to open, then don't fucking open. We trust people and businesses every day to obey a large list of laws and regulations. Operating under L3 guidelines is just another one, and we shouldn't hold the entire economy hostage because a few businesses can't be trusted.
Well I don't trust businesses who aren't ready to open not to open. It's great that you do, but I don't know what you base that on.
For us it's no big deal, our only public facing aspect at the moment is in court, and only some hearings are done in person most aren't.
What worries me, and no doubt worried the government is the businesses who are public facing and would open without much thought for others.
The other thing that worries me is that you say you are angry about it. Don't get angry about someone else having a different view to you mate. That is just silly.
Seriously, if something someone posts in a very civil political debate makes you angry, perhaps you shouldn't partake in political discussions online. Reasonable people can disagree on this sort of stuff.
It was your attitude that made me angry - you're not ready so the whole economy should wait for you. Pretty selfish IMO, and yeah, makes me pretty frustrated.
You may not don't trust others to act within the law, but where do you draw that line? Do you trust them to pay taxes? To follow OH&S guidelines?
The arbitrary extension for the long weekend was nothing to do with giving business more time anyway as they could have announced a week earlier that the original end date was going to be maintained. It was purely a government overreaching and taking away personal liberties for their agenda.
Mate you shouldn't ever get angry at someone who posts on a sports forum. I repeat that is extremely unhealthy and you should probably walk away if you are angry. I also think it's borderline to go around calling other people selfish because they have a different perspective to you.
I invite you to edit your post and remove the inappropriate language.
🤣 that made me laugh. I'm sure the mods will do their thing if they think I've been innapropriate.
If I misinterpreted your attitude, that you support the extension because it gave less-prepared businesses like yours time to get ready, at the expense of the rest of the economy, then sure, I'm sorry for that. But if I understood you correctly (and note that you haven't clarified or corrected me) , then yeah I find your attitude selfish. I'm not apologising for that.
As for my anger, you don't have to worry about me - I'm not stomping around the house punching the walls. I'm just "internet" angry, venting into my phone keyboard.
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@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Damo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Damo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Damo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Damo I also think that different societies/cultures behave differently and what works for one won't necessarily work somewhere else.
I reckon adding the long weekend to our lockdown shows our Govt. thinks we need to be hand held through this.
Agree first paragraph. Some societies don't need strict rules to ensure that the population acts appropriately to look after it's vulnerable people. Other societies need strong government rule, otherwise it's every body for themselves.
I agree with the govt on your second paragraph. We do.
More to the point, I also think a few extra days has allowed businesses to plan for how they will function in level 3. If they announced on Monday that we're into level 3 on Wednesday, some businesses might not have planned properly. My office is a case in point. We are ready to go tomorrow, on Wednesday we wouldn't have been.
What would be worse for the economy is level 3 being a disaster, and having to return to level 4.
I really struggle with this attitude, and quite honestly it makes me pretty angry. Who the hell decided we needed hand holding for a long weekend? And what have them the right to make that decision? The government stole 4 trading days from business who were ready to go.
The fact that your business wouldn't have been ready is totally on you, and absolutely not the fault of every other business that was more prepared.
If you're not ready to open, then don't fucking open. We trust people and businesses every day to obey a large list of laws and regulations. Operating under L3 guidelines is just another one, and we shouldn't hold the entire economy hostage because a few businesses can't be trusted.
Well I don't trust businesses who aren't ready to open not to open. It's great that you do, but I don't know what you base that on.
For us it's no big deal, our only public facing aspect at the moment is in court, and only some hearings are done in person most aren't.
What worries me, and no doubt worried the government is the businesses who are public facing and would open without much thought for others.
The other thing that worries me is that you say you are angry about it. Don't get angry about someone else having a different view to you mate. That is just silly.
Seriously, if something someone posts in a very civil political debate makes you angry, perhaps you shouldn't partake in political discussions online. Reasonable people can disagree on this sort of stuff.
It was your attitude that made me angry - you're not ready so the whole economy should wait for you. Pretty selfish IMO, and yeah, makes me pretty frustrated.
You may not don't trust others to act within the law, but where do you draw that line? Do you trust them to pay taxes? To follow OH&S guidelines?
The arbitrary extension for the long weekend was nothing to do with giving business more time anyway as they could have announced a week earlier that the original end date was going to be maintained. It was purely a government overreaching and taking away personal liberties for their agenda.
Mate you shouldn't ever get angry at someone who posts on a sports forum. I repeat that is extremely unhealthy and you should probably walk away if you are angry. I also think it's borderline to go around calling other people selfish because they have a different perspective to you.
I invite you to edit your post and remove the inappropriate language.
🤣 that made me laugh. I'm sure the mods will do their thing if they think I've been innapropriate.
If I misinterpreted your attitude, that you support the extension because it gave less-prepared businesses like yours time to get ready, at the expense of the rest of the economy, then sure, I'm sorry for that. But if I understood you correctly (and note that you haven't clarified or corrected me) , then yeah I find your attitude selfish. I'm not apologising for that.
As for my anger, you don't have to worry about me - I'm not stomping around the house punching the walls. I'm just "internet" angry, venting into my phone keyboard.
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@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
that made me laugh. I'm sure the mods will do their thing if they think I've been innapropriate.
I actually pay here so that I can say "fuck" when it suits me.
Maybe we need a swear box for those that don't contribute.
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@Toddy said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Damo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
More to the point, I also think a few extra days has allowed businesses to plan for how they will function in level 3. If they announced on Monday that we're into level 3 on Wednesday, some businesses might not have planned properly. My office is a case in point. We are ready to go tomorrow, on Wednesday we wouldn't have been.
Am I right in thinking you work for a law firm? Why weren't you ready to go?
Well for one thing we were waiting for guidance from the courts as to what would happen with hearings/conferences. We kept getting mixed signals about what sorts of stuff would be operating and what wouldn't. Nobody is still quite sure what is happening with short cause stuff, except that it has to be done in person. (What about, for example the 65 year old lawyer who doesn't want to, or the 70 year old witness who has to attend?). We also have a high percentage of elderly staff.
Ultimately it makes little difference to us because we aren't currently public facing. A cafe or restaurant wondering about how to operate with remote delivery is in a different position. I note that even McDonalds is being criticised for it's current plans.
Coronavirus - New Zealand