-
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="572289" data-time="1460631500">
<div>
<p>"And here is where you and I agree, lets criticise the religion, but lets not criticise all the people who follow that religion."<br><br>
Problem is how do you criticise the religion without it being perceived as an attack on, you know, the people who actually follow that religion?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I don't know if you can without some of that religion seeing it as an attack on them, but, more to the point, why did you wait until I posted and not when NQ posted the original to ask? ;)</p> -
<p>I think in all of these the core issue - <strong><em>what's the best way for a country to manage its immigration policies in a "we just care about the result, we don't care about appearing PC" way </em></strong>gets lost.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It's a very big issue for NZ because we are, to a degree, at the stage many other countries were a long time ago. For Europe the problem is that first bit, but also how do we fix the massive fuckup. For NZ we haven't <em>quite</em> made the massive fuckup yet - tho' we are moving in that direction.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As BSG & JC that whole "no need to integrate, your culture & beliefs are important, stick with them even here" bullshit that Tony Blair pushed through has been a disaster, and for Europe the answer feels like that has to be reversed, and that will be painful as a whole generation have been brought up in that - multiple generations in France. So you will literally end up with the riots that hit France a few years ago when they tried to step into the Banliues.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But also the immigration policies that led there need to change too.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Tho' for Europe changing the immigration policy is only a tiny bit as they literally cannot close their doors in the way NZ or England can. So those migrants are coming, and you start sinking the boats & killing them, you make their home countries nice, or you intergrate them. Only one of those is feasible. And its as expensive as fuck.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="572261" data-time="1460623193">
<div>
<p>Multiculturalism has failed. It is a failed policy in the UK, in the sense that multiculturalism is used in the article. Fundamentally you have admitted that as you are talking about solutions, if there wasn't a problem, you wouldn't need solutions.</p>
<p>So many western countries have a problem, you are talking about solutions to the existing problem, some of your ideas are good. But it is ambulance at the bottom of the cliff stuff. What is the point in integrating 100 migrants a day if you are also concurrently alienating 500 via either a dangerous ideology or new migration?</p>
<p>I have never said existing residents should be removed, what I am saying is turn off the tap! Sort he current shite out... and then analyse what went wrong that you needed to put so much effort into stopping immigrants or children of immigrants from hating the country they live in.</p>
<p>I actually agree that criticizing a religion would not work to change heavily religious peoples minds. They are set, but it is very possible to temper moderates opinions, and to show that a barbaric ideology exists with Islam. I know this true because it has already occurred within Christianity. The fact that any criticism of Islam as a doctrine is attacked so aggressively is an incredibly strong sign that extremism will flourish.</p>
<p>It has got to the point where even arguing that Islam is the most dangerous mass followed doctrine in the world is seen as Islamophobia, Which is illustrative. </p>
<p>The Islamic ideology is aggresive and dangerous, not only in its texts.. but in its application in modern society, its aggressive assertion of superiority. Sure other religions had similar delusions, but they have all been criticised openly and to the point that where if any Christian priest spouted the things that many Immans spout.. it would be international news. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I think when you get to the point where any criticism of an ideology is denegrated, you have a serious problem. Combine that with a extremely expansionist ideology... add a touch of violence instructed by God.. and you have a massive problem. And then for the cherry on top... you import that into a western culture. :idiot2:</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>This is good Baron, thanks for it</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I actually don't live in the west, so really I think my views are actually skewed. When I think of minorities in the ghettoes, my references are generally cracking people who just have no real opportunities in life. The disenfranchised I know are quite energetic and possess a lot of potential and are generally pretty tolerant. Often they're great people who'd thrive if given a leg up.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Hence I don't think I'm able to comment about the western lifestyle with any real sense of authority (yeah we noticed )</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>However I do know that the trials and tribulations and fears of the western world pail into insignificance compared to life in developing countries. What middle class western people are "scared of" and the way the media select and treat events, injustices and tragedies is pretty disturbing. The coverage one incident gets over another is vastly disproportionate and to hear people say they fear terrorist attacks and disruption to their lives makes me shake my head. More chance of dying in your car.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The west doesn't have a monopoly on tragic unfair deaths - not even close.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Similarly when I see the vitriol for people and religions based on generalisations and TV coverage and hear peoples opinions of large groups of people tey've never known, I despair.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It sucks being told your way of life is shit when you ain't done nothing wrong by people who don't know you</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Having met fluffybunnys and great people from all walks of life, colour, religion and age I reckon that you can only judge on behaviour. Just my way of looking at stuff based on people I've met. It simplifies things IMO</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Anyway thanks to those who have contributed, I've learned from all of you.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I got a timely reminder about priorities an hour ago while walking the dogs when an infant cobra reared up on me. I see snakes a couple of times a month, and usually their arses as they retreat but this little shit arced up and lunged a few times. I swung my 2 iron shaft at him (never liked that club) and eventually the little prick sauntered off with a fuck you "human" attitude. He didn't even know me ;)</p>
<p> </p>
<p>A reminder to focus on things directly in your eyesight and don't sweat the stuff you can't control</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="572290" data-time="1460631881">
<div>
<p>I don't know if you can without some of that religion seeing it as an attack on them, but, more to the point, why did you wait until I posted and not when NQ posted the original to ask? ;)</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Because you're the self-righteous one.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And that is a bullshit answer. You said yourself that it's ok to criticise parts of a religion. But how can you do that when Islam cannot be questioned or criticised in any way without Muslims being offended?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>You make this out to be some kind of unfair attack on a persecuted minority. It isn't. It's criticism of the religion of that minority and questioning whether the beliefs of that religion are compatible with Western society. Do you not agree that these are legitimate questions?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Because some of these views might have been the norm in Western countries generations ago is a pretty crap argument for tolerating them in our societies today.</p> -
<p>I don't mean to trivalise the issues you have with immigration in your countries</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Is it irony that the dominant cultures in the west let people get away with stuff that wouldn't be tolerated at all in immigrants home countries?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Further proof that humans will push and push boundaries till they can't get away with nonsense, but by fuck they will if you let them</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="572299" data-time="1460634951">
<div>
<p> </p>
<p>The west doesn't have a monopoly on tragic unfair deaths - not even close.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>jeez aint that the truth... just one example from many</p>
<p>The Bam earthquakes .. killed thousands.... wiped out a ancient city.... and it got sweet fuck all coverage.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Another were the Pakistan floods a few years back.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And that doesn't even touch on the bombings in those countries. Paris and Brussels gets bombed and we get 24/7 news coverage,... happens in Pakistan.. one short news snippet. And I am as bad as everyone else. I think about it more than most I think as I have been to many of these places.. but do I comment on here as much about Peshawar bombing as a Brussels bombing? No. Is that because on some level I think Muslims bombing other Muslims is their own problem? Iprobably... but I am nto proud of that sentiment. But it also makes me think that we (the west) dont need to import that shite.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="572284" data-time="1460630230">
<div>
<p>I think you're guilty of not doing the bold when responding to my comment - I specifically discuss Muslims not Islam, and Muslims as a 'group' (ideology or not they can be grouped) - like any religion, not all Muslim's interpret the religion in the same way - why do Western nations tolerate the Christian ideology that preaches intolerance? And here is where you and I agree, lets criticise the religion, but lets not criticise all the people who follow that religion. And to reiterate, my point was that the stat that 47% of respondents thought Muslims should do more to combat terrorism wasn't really relevant to anything. </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Yup all of my posts have been harsh criticism of Islam, <em>not</em> Muslims. I've made that point over and over.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And the West doesn't really tolerate the Christian ideology that preaches intolerance. The West, generally speaking, have a very clear directive about separation of Church and State. Catholics are pretty much the butt of all jokes in the West nowadays. The problem with Islam is it is a political ideology. It is meant to be the law of the land - that is why those Muslims in my first post of this thread want to set up an Islamic State with Sharia law in Belgium. That's incredibly aggressive, to want to force all people in Belgium to follow your belief system and your laws.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I think most people on this thread largely agree with each other. The solutions that Siam posted will help and I agree completely, but I don't think implementing those solutions is mutually exclusive to criticising Islam or any religion for that matter. Religions are just ideas that need to be scrutinised. The more 'moderate' followers that turn their back on these out-dated belief systems the better we will be.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>My better half was raised very Catholic (PNG is a <em>very</em> religions country with 90%+ following Christianity). I repeatedly questioned her faith using Science (and also played her some George Carlin) until she realised what a crock of shit it all really is. Now she is quite angry that she wasted so much time with that bullshit. The more we openly question this stuff the more likely people are to turn their back on it.</p> -
<p>Anyone on here read persepolis?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Easily one of the best Graphic novels I have read.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It's written as a sort of life story by a girl (Marjane Satrapi) who grew up in Iran during the Islamic revolution in the early 1980's. She's a bit of a rebel who is suddenly thrust into a veil and hates it. As did most of the population according to her. Really shows the average Iranian is not much different from you or me.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(17,17,17);font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">In her foreword to the book, Satrapi demonstrates a deep love of her country and its cultured history. Part of her aim is to offset the West's view of Iran as a country of belligerent, fundamentalist fanatics and terrorists :</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:14px;"><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color:rgb(17,17,17);">"I believe that an entire nation should not be judged by the wrongdoings of a few extremists. I also don't want those Iranians who lost their lives in prisons defending freedom, who died in the war against Iraq, who suffered under various repressive regimes, or who were forced to leave their families and flee their homeland to be forgotten"</span></span></span><br><br><span style="font-size:14px;"><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color:rgb(17,17,17);">The book is basically a personal account of Marjane's childhood from aged 6 to when she left her home in 1984. </span></span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Anyway, I know that it's not really on topic. But if anyone wants to read an unbiased account of what life in Iran was like during the revolution, it's definately worth a read. Being a graphic novel, it doesn't take too long to finish either :)</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="572324" data-time="1460665900">
<div>
<p> No. Is that because on some level I think Muslims bombing other Muslims is their own problem? Iprobably... but I am nto proud of that sentiment. But it also makes me think that we (the west) dont need to import that shite.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Agree on every single level. Took 4 pages, but I think we finally got the apex of the whole argument.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="572324" data-time="1460665900">
<div>
<p>jeez aint that the truth... just one example from many</p>
<p>The Bam earthquakes .. killed thousands.... wiped out a ancient city.... and it got sweet fuck all coverage.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Another were the Pakistan floods a few years back.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And that doesn't even touch on the bombings in those countries. Paris and Brussels gets bombed and we get 24/7 news coverage,... happens in Pakistan.. one short news snippet. And I am as bad as everyone else. I think about it more than most I think as I have been to many of these places.. but do I comment on here as much about Peshawar bombing as a Brussels bombing? No. Is that because on some level I think Muslims bombing other Muslims is their own problem? Iprobably... but I am nto proud of that sentiment. But it also makes me think that we (the west) dont need to import that shite.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>The one that shook me up yesterday is that its 2 years since 276 girls were kidnapped in Nigeria</p>
<p> </p>
<p>219 are still missing</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Can't even imagine the pain of the parents. That ain't religion or anti government strategy, that's just people being fluffybunnies of the highest order</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/04/14/boko-haram-kidnapped-276-girls-two-years-ago-what-happened-to-them/'>https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/04/14/boko-haram-kidnapped-276-girls-two-years-ago-what-happened-to-them/</a></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="572300" data-time="1460635358">
<div>
<p><strong>Because you're the self-righteous one.</strong></p>
<p> </p>
<p>And that is a bullshit answer. You said yourself that it's ok to criticise parts of a religion. But how can you do that when Islam cannot be questioned or criticised in any way without Muslims being offended?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>You make this out to be some kind of unfair attack on a persecuted minority.</strong> It isn't. It's criticism of the religion of that minority and questioning whether the beliefs of that religion are compatible with Western society. Do you not agree that these are legitimate questions?</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Pull your head out of your arse, having a different view to you doesn't make me self righteous. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I criticise Islam to Muslims on nearly a daily basis ( have a Muslim flatmate and a couple of Muslim friends) - I've criticised Islam in this thread, I also criticise Catholicism to my Catholic mate as well. I'm sure I offend all of them at times, but that's alright, they say things that offend me as well. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>And no I'm not making it out to be an unfair attack on a persecuted minority, I'm not actually sure how you got to that.</p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">Because some of these views might have been the norm in Western countries generations ago is a pretty crap argument for tolerating them in our societies today.
<p> </p>
</blockquote>
<p>Seriously, WTF are you on about? I didn't say because the we tolerated stuff generations ago we have to tolerate it now. I used a point about homophobia based on BSGs posted article to show that views can change between generations - and lets be clear here, lots of people in the west hold that exact same intolerant view. </p> -
Pull your head out of your arse, having a different view to you doesn't make me self righteous."<br><br>
Erm, I never said it did. And if you think it's legitimate to criticise Islam then what exactly is your issue with these types of threads? It's been made clear on multiple occasions that its about the religion. <br><br>
"I didn't say because the we tolerated stuff generations ago we have to tolerate it now. I used a point about homophobia based on BSGs posted article to show that views can change between generations - and lets be clear here, lots of people in the west hold that exact same intolerant view."<br><br>
And wtf is the point of that? Yes some people have stupid viewpoints in Western countries and yes generations ago your wife was expected to obey you and showing ankle at the beach was a sin. And so farking what? We're in 2016. People in Western countries who hold those views are ridiculed and marginalised. You can dismiss the results of the study with that kind of "logic", but I agree with the well-off black guy that they are a serious concern. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="572404" data-time="1460690017">
<div>
<p>Pull your head out of your arse, having a different view to you doesn't make me self righteous."<br><br>
Erm, I never said it did. And if you think it's legitimate to criticise Islam then what exactly is your issue with these types of threads?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Because like many left wingers they have been flummoxed by the failure of a doctrine they heavily believed in. Inclusiveness despite differences and rellgious intolerance. It is a slow process for these left wing types to come to the realization that it is a religious issue, they still trot out out the 'it isnt all Muslims' mantra regardless of wether anyone else has said that it is. Some still, incredibly, say it isnt a religious issue, or it isnt an issue with Islam. But as time goes on, they are becoming more and more like the flat earth society.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>However they still have a knee jerk response that they simply cannot help. When they see anyone criticise Islam, they must go to the left wing toolbox of reflex responses.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="572400" data-time="1460688078">
<div>
<p> I've criticised Islam in this thread, I also criticise Catholicism to my Catholic mate as well. </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>What do you criticise Catholicism about exactly? Le me guess the pedo priests? Ok, but if you are going to them to represent Catholicism.. do you use ISIS to represent Islam and hassle your Muslim mates about ISIS? And I would argue ISIS is lot more in line with Islamic doctrine than pedo priests are with Catholic doctrine,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Or do you actually criticise the religion? I can find lots of things to criticise Islam about and how it is ACTUALLY implemented in modern times. Want to compare Catholicism and Islam ideologies as implemented in modern times?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Because comparatively there is fuck all to complain about with Catholicism in modern times.</p> -
<p>What's with the labelling of people who have differing opinions? Is it only some aspects of opinion that define if you're a "left winger"? </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Can't people express opinions in isolation?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>What is a left winger? Terry Wright or Craig Green?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>What comfort does it provide to label people like this? Is it to belittle? If so please provide a list of favourable labels. Is a John Kirwan favourable to David Campese?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>What purpose does it serve to label people left wingers?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="572420" data-time="1460695155">
<div>
<p>What's with the labelling of people who have differing opinions? Is it only some aspects of opinion that define if you're a "left winger"? </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Can't people express opinions in isolation?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>What is a left winger? Terry Wright or Craig Green?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>What comfort does it provide to label people like this? Is it to belittle? If so please provide a list of favourable labels. Is a John Kirwan favourable to David Campese?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>What purpose does it serve to label people left wingers?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Yes SIam..... Terry Wright was a left winger.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If you need me to explain what left wing means.. you are out of luck. I cannot be bothered.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But I am able to judge who I believe has left wing views on this board. It seems a condition that most people want to be seen as moderate and centrist, the vast majority are kidding themselves and fooling nobody else. I am not centrist, I am of right wing persuasion, I am not ashamed of that. If someone labels me a right winger.. that isnt pejorative it is most likely an accurate analysis of my posts and position on topics. I don't cry like a baby about it. I know some centrists and indeed some on this board are, but they are not many.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And then guess what.. I criticise left wing positions and the responses they generate. Having different opinions to me doesnt make you a left winger, lots of people on this hold different opinions to me. Giving out posts that repeat left wing policy and ideology make you a left winger IMO. Just as me agreeing with and posting right wing solutions makes me a right winger.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It is interesting you see left wing as a pejorative label. I can see why... it is a fucked up position people should be ashamed of.... :knuppel: .. but then I would say that</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="572416" data-time="1460694603">
<p>Because comparatively there is fuck all to complain about with Catholicism in modern times.</p>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>While its nowhere near as backwards as islam, there are a LOT of places in the world where catholicism is the thing standing in the way of women & basic healthcare.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/13/northern-ireland-women-miscarry-abortion-questioning-unite'>http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/13/northern-ireland-women-miscarry-abortion-questioning-unite</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Thats in the 1st world.... Its appartently a bit suspicious to have a miscariage in Ireland. But thats OK, women who have just had miscarriages are pretty happy. Catholicism is why women in parts of the US struggle to get the pill.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If you are a man (a grown man anyway) Catholicism is utterly harmless & has zero impact on your life. If you are a woman or a sexy, sexy child, less so...</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="572515" data-time="1460710825">
<div>
<p>While its nowhere near as backwards as islam, there are a LOT of places in the world where catholicism is the thing standing in the way of women & basic healthcare.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/13/northern-ireland-women-miscarry-abortion-questioning-unite'>http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/13/northern-ireland-women-miscarry-abortion-questioning-unite</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Thats in the 1st world.... Its appartently a bit suspicious to have a miscariage in Ireland. But thats OK, women who have just had miscarriages are pretty happy. Catholicism is why women in parts of the US struggle to get the pill.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If you are a man (a grown man anyway) Catholicism is utterly harmless & has zero impact on your life. If you are a woman or a sexy, sexy child, less so...</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>And that sums up the hypocrisy. Unless you want to subscribe to a religion things that whilst forbidden by the religion are undertaken by officials within in the religion. </p>
<p>It is the standard response to Islam apologists, I even predicted it earlier in the thread, it is one of the knee jerk and 'go to' responses. </p>
<p>If you are going to attribute that kind of behavior to the ideology of Catholicism.. then you need to apply that to all the behavior of Immans. Good luck doing that.</p>
<p>Even your phrase 'sexy sexy children' is repulsive. ISIS follows the teachings of Mohammed and the hadiths far more closely than the pedo priests do christianity, yet how many times have you said that ISIS don't represent Islam accurately? There is not even an equivalency on any level to the pedo priests breaking the rules of their own religion and ISIS following the rules of their religion. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Ad for your example on abortion... that is incredibly underwhelming when compared to Islamic law. Women 'may' face prosecution for an abortion, she could have traveled to England for it. A bit of a hassle.... but compare that to the treatment of Women in Islamic states? And who says that being pro life is a catholic issue? </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I look forward to you analyzing Islam with the same rigor as you do Catholicism....</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Maybe we could start with Female circumcision? </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="572688" data-time="1460779697">
<div>
<p>I look forward to you analyzing Islam with the same rigor as you do Catholicism....</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Maybe we could start with Female circumcision? </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Just quietly, that's not restricted to Islam. It's a cultural issue. Plenty of African Christians practise female genital mutilation.</p>
The Failed policy of Multiculturalism