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@victor-meldrew while I think Thatcher's role in history and her intentions may be beyond my ken, I understand Thatcher had more enemies than rich lefties (and honorable or dishonorable mention to Elvis Costello: I don't think Costello was that rich when he wrote "Let Her Dangle"). Plus "trade uniform reforms" in the name of democracy is arguable, she weakened unions' ability to strike.
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@nostrildamus said in Brexit:
@victor-meldrew while I think Thatcher's role in history and her intentions may be beyond my ken, I understand Thatcher had more enemies than rich lefties (and honorable or dishonorable mention to Elvis Costello: I don't think Costello was that rich when he wrote "Let Her Dangle"). Plus "trade uniform reforms" in the name of democracy is arguable, she weakened unions' ability to strike.
Very much arguable, but @Victor-Meldrew is pretty much on the money saying she democraticised the unions. Her Government put in place structures that had to be adhered to before a strike could be called. Previously it was simply a show of hands at a meeting with not everyone possibly getting the memo about. Rarely an actual count in any event, simply the shop steward deciding on the numbers. Open to abuse and readily abused all too often.
To get a true idea of how much the reform of the unions was necessary one would probably have to have lived through the 1970's and early 80s. It was a time of constant industrial strife, quite often on the flimsiest of pretences. Some places having several wild cat strikes in the same week. Plummeting production, appalling production quality, completely unreliable supply lines. Industry wise we were a complete mess and in truth we have never recovered. That ship has sailed and we have, in the main, the unions to blame for it. Then there were some industries that operated on a closed shop principle whereby it was the union that dictated the recruitment of staff and decided upon protected jobs that had nothing to do with their worthiness.
Add in to this mix some pretty dire management at times and an awful lot of Governmental interference and the mess just got worse.
Fuck me but it was an awful time.
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@nostrildamus said in Brexit:
@victor-meldrew while I think Thatcher's role in history and her intentions may be beyond my ken, I understand Thatcher had more enemies than rich lefties (and honorable or dishonorable mention to Elvis Costello: I don't think Costello was that rich when he wrote "Let Her Dangle"). Plus "trade uniform reforms" in the name of democracy is arguable, she weakened unions' ability to strike.
How ensuring union members (the people who will be impacted by a strike) could decide on whether they actually want to go on strike weakened their ability to withdraw their labour is beyond me. She actually strengthened Unions ability to strike by giving them legal protection as long as the strike was the result of a secret ballot.
Sympathy strikes were common. Imagine being told by some bloke you'd never voted for, that you'd have to lose your income for weeks or months by going on strike to support a dispute which had nothing to do with you or your employer. No wonder she won loads of union members votes.
The only thing she weakened was un-elected Trade Union leaders ability to force people to go on strike on pain of permanently long their job, and that was a bloody good thing.
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@catogrande said in Brexit:
Add in to this mix some pretty dire management at times and an awful lot of Governmental interference and the mess just got worse.
One of the really clever bits of her reforms was the mandatory strike ballot.
A vote for a strike made the (usually useless, incompetent and often not giving a fuck about their people) company management finally wake up to the fact they had a real issue that actually needed resolving. They could no longer blame the unions for their mismanagement of their employees.
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@nostrildamus said in Brexit:
while I think Thatcher's role in history and her intentions may be beyond my ken, I understand Thatcher had more enemies than rich lefties (and honorable or dishonorable mention to Elvis Costello: I don't think Costello was that rich when he wrote "Let Her Dangle").
True. She was even more loathed by the Tory party Old Guard who she regarded as incompetent buffoons.
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@victor-meldrew @Catogrande
thank you both that is not a perspective I was expecting and I'll do some more research before I venture into this topic again. I find her time in history fascinating but my memory of it may be incomplete and partial. -
@nostrildamus said in Brexit:
thank you both that is not a perspective I was expecting and I'll do some more research before I venture into this topic again.
You do realise this is the Fern don't you?
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@victor-meldrew said in Brexit:
@nostrildamus said in Brexit:
thank you both that is not a perspective I was expecting and I'll do some more research before I venture into this topic again.
You do realise this is the Fern don't you?
Sometimes I don't know what it is!
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@majorrage said in Brexit:
Probably the best column I’ve ever read in the Guardian.
I suspect he (or the editor) has simplified the reasons for and against Brexit but I appreciate his conciseness. But also, some EU nationals may not want to return to the UK because they don't feel welcome. Based purely on personal connections so yes this is anecdotal but I have a few EU friends working in the UK who feel less comfortable there, socially-speaking.
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@nostrildamus yeah, there is anecdotal evidence of that, but it doesn't add up to my observations. Our polish cleaner returned home as she missed her son too much, but our current one (Romanian) has no intention of leaving. My daughters BFF's Dad (Polish) runs a local gardening company (15 vans worth so not small) and has lost no workers.
In our circle of friends, we have some Dutch, Finnish, French. One family left to return to NL, but it was for lifestyle / family reasons.
So yes, some people have left, but none for Brexit / feeling unwelcome reasons that I know of. The HGV driver issue is going to go on and cause a lot more headaches though. There are shortages in Germany as well, so they are offering premium pay. If you were Euro, why would you look to come here when you could easily go somewhere closer and where you don't need a visa?
But remainers, and especially twitter remainers are colossally overstating the extent of that problem in supermarkets. At least around my way. There is the odd empty shelf, but hardly anything worth panicking, let alone getting all political, about. People in this country are simply so used to having the option of absolutely everything at their beck and call. Not having a specific brand / shape of pasta is not worth getting worried about.
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@majorrage has there been a problem with GPS or did they reach an agreement with the EU over the satelites?
Regards discrimination, most of my foreign pals are outside London (and some are far north England) so that may be a factor. -
@nostrildamus said in Brexit:
@majorrage has there been a problem with GPS or did they reach an agreement with the EU over the satelites?
Regards discrimination, most of my foreign pals are outside London (and some are far north England) so that may be a factor.Talk on that has gone quiet since the deal was signed, so I suspect this was included in that.
No doubt location is a factor, but I should point out, I'm not in London.
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@Crucial
I looked at some his other video titles.- Austerity 2.0 - Another Tory Cull of the Poor?
- This Unpopular Tory Brexit Is Pleasing No-one.
- How Brexit Ensured Britain's Descent Into Chaos
- Tory Brexit Britain Is A Global Laughing Stock
- DIRECT Action YOU Can Take To DEFUND THE TORIES!
Might be a bit biased and selective. Ya think?
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@Frank You only have to look at the lurid rhetoric to come to a sensible conclusion on that score! I'm tempted to watch that vid though just to see what the arguments are - in effect to see if there is any real substance to back things up. My logical side says unlikely but my curious side says Hmmm, I wonder.
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@Crucial
I looked at some his other video titles.- Austerity 2.0 - Another Tory Cull of the Poor?
- This Unpopular Tory Brexit Is Pleasing No-one.
- How Brexit Ensured Britain's Descent Into Chaos
- Tory Brexit Britain Is A Global Laughing Stock
- DIRECT Action YOU Can Take To DEFUND THE TORIES!
Might be a bit biased and selective. Ya think?
I was nearly going to comment on the inflammatory headlines but thought that is pretty much par for the course in any media form these days.
And yes, it annoys me as well.
The commentary is fact based and if you watch his explanation of the channel he openly states the aim of pointing out facts that don’t fit the political narrative.
I totally get that there may be facts that do but I am struggling to find those.Economic indicators at this time do seem to show a lot of downsides to Brexit without much light at the end of the tunnel. Pretty easy to see why a conclusion can be drawn that the public were sold a pup and for those bearing the brunt there is justification to say I told you so.
I m happy to see explanations of the upside if I can find them.
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I'm still searching for the cred of this commentary YT channel but an interesting array of 'facts' around where Brexit has lead the UK.
But vast majority don't want to rejoin. Not seeing much of those headlines in MSM!
This isn’t MSM though. Where is the explanation of that dichotomy?
Is it stoicism? We created this, don’t like the results but will see it through?
I’m curious.Personally I think Brexit was a really dumb thing to do but since it happened I am curious about the outcome
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I'm still searching for the cred of this commentary YT channel but an interesting array of 'facts' around where Brexit has lead the UK.
But vast majority don't want to rejoin. Not seeing much of those headlines in MSM!
This isn’t MSM though. Where is the explanation of that dichotomy?
Is it stoicism? We created this, don’t like the results but will see it through?
I’m curious.Personally I think Brexit was a really dumb thing to do but since it happened I am curious about the outcome
With all due respect, above two posts sound like a conclusion already looking reasons to support that.
Doesn’t make you wrong, or right. But it shows. And agrees, the truth.
Brexit would be smashing it if supported at 80%. unequivocally.
But country is too divided because of it, and Tory hatred is at extreme levels. Country can thrive, but won’t, because too many don’t want it to. It’s that simple.
We will be back in EU by 2027.
Brexit