Bastille day truck crash
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="597876" data-time="1468833884"><p>So in summary: more war. Because fighting an ideology with guns has worked so well to date. I'm sure once ISIS is defeated that'll send a message and we won't have another fundamentalist group rise to power... oh wait.</p></blockquote>I'm still waiting for you to provide a viable alternative that isn't just "tell all followers of religion that the thing they worship is poison and that they need to wake up and see the light"
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mooshld" data-cid="597862" data-time="1468831412">
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<p>Wow that is some spurious logic? Its like claiming someone is a Canterbury fan and the onus is on them to prove they are not.</p>
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<p>For all these people who are so keen to catalogue these nutters I have a question? How does it help? Lets say you find 80% of them are Islamic, or Black, or Heterosexual, or Right handed. So what are you going to do now, persecute the non crime committing members of that community? How do you expect that to help?</p>
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<p>I am genuinely puzzled by this desire to find correlations when its well know that correlation is not equal to causation. </p>
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<p>No it is not spurious logic as it is resisting the demand to prove a negative which is a logical fallacy. He killed scores of people and ISIS have stated that he worked for them, the authorities have said he was radicalised. The onus is on those claiming he was not a Muslim and not working for ISIS to prove it, not the the way around.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="597878" data-time="1468834065">
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<p>I'm still waiting for you to provide a viable alternative that isn't just "tell all followers of religion that the thing they worship is poison and that they need to wake up and see the light"</p>
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<p>Well you'll be waiting a while.</p>
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<p>Why do you think the role of Christianity in western countries has diminished so much? Because people challenged it. People called it out for the nonsense that it is. The religion has been forced to reform itself to fit into a secular society.</p>
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<p>I have not once said this is a quick fix. There is no quick fix to changing ideologies. But I know for certain that fighting an ideology with guns and bombs does not work.</p>
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<p>It is not people calling out Islam that is providing fuel for ISIS and other Islamic groups to recruit. It's the bombs that are constantly being dropped in the Middle East. </p>
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<p>I don't challenge religion because I am sure it is going to fix any problems in my lifetime. I challenge it because I am sure it is going to help fix problems for future generations.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mooshld" data-cid="597864" data-time="1468831817">
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<p>Why wait feel free to start a thread about the crusades 400 years of this shit. You can discuss your outrage there about this religion of evil that carried out such a sustained campaign of terror. I'm sure given half an hour on wikipedia you could start a thread for any religion you wanted. They have all been gigantic dicks at some stage or another in human history. </p>
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<p>Which instructions from Jesus were the Crusaders following? </p>
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<p>I find it strange to always have the same debate on this topic, because all religions have at some stage done some dickish things, therefore we should not be to harsh on judging modern religions. It is insanity and appeasement of the very worst kind.</p>
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<p>Not all religions have the same level of hate in the founding text. They are not all equal. To draw an equivalence between religions simply because they are religions is laughable.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mooshld" data-cid="597862" data-time="1468831412">
<div><br><p>I am genuinely puzzled by this desire to find correlations when its well know that correlation is not equal to causation. </p>
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<p>If you are trying to promote an agenda or prove you are right you can link anything to anything. Its how we end up with Barack Obama being a Kenyan born Muslim secretly supporting ISIS. If you want something to be true, you link in anything to it.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="597878" data-time="1468834065">
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<p>I'm still waiting for you to provide a viable alternative that isn't just "tell all followers of religion that the thing they worship is poison and that they need to wake up and see the light"</p>
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<p>Alternative is long term. Its peace & good govenance in Islamic areas, then school (non Islamic), good child healthcare, jobs, security. You put all that in place (as it was in the West) and religion declines.</p>
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<p>The alternative is you deport EVERYONE in the West who comes from an Islamist area or who is less than 3rd generation. Those who wont go you kill. You then put up border walls & kill anyone (man, woman, kids) no respecting those walls. And ideally you introduce famine & pandemic to the Islamist regions. IE Isolate Saudi, introduce Ebola, withhold treatment. </p>
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<p>Both methods will work.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="597883" data-time="1468834586">
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<p>Well you'll be waiting a while.</p>
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<p>Why do you think the role of Christianity in western countries has diminished so much? Because people challenged it. People called it out for the nonsense that it is. The religion has been forced to reform itself to fit into a secular society.</p>
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<p>Utter bollocks. Christianity declined because people no longer needed the church for laws, land, jobs, security. Its why Christianity remains strongest in poor countries with bad basic govenance. You want to know what the West looked like re religion 150 years ago you can see it now in Nigeria</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="597885" data-time="1468834842">
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<p>Utter bollocks. Christianity declined because people no longer needed the church for laws, land, jobs, security. Its why Christianity remains strongest in poor countries with bad basic govenance. You want to know what the West looked like re religion 150 years ago you can see it now in Nigeria</p>
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<p>You've missed the part where the people calling out Christianity were mainly scientists and other well educated people. You say non-religious education is key but ignore how we got to a point where we get to learn science in the classroom. If nobody challenges Christianity then we don't have modern science and technology. Without modern science and technology then we don't progress a hell of a lot.</p>
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<p>Nigeria has an incredibly poor education system, so you have a large population of uneducated, unskilled people who pray to God that things will get better. Because they have nothing else.</p> -
<p>An openness and ability to criticise every single religion equally is the first step. No religion should be exempt form critique and mockery. If a religion actively promotes hatred of women, non believers and homosexuals, that should be confronted. Not appeased and protected. An open contest of ideas is the the way bad idea are defeated. Appeasing and protecting bad ideas is the way of madness.</p>
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<p>Islamic teachings are incompatible with western society, this is being proven daily, often via bloodshed. Europe's big plan of immigration is failing and it is destroying incrementally every country that has allowed rampant Islamic immigration. Sure we still get people (not anyone here) screeching that it will work.. if only we allow more in.... appease them more.. give up more western values. It has not and it will not.</p>
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<p>I would halt Islamic immigration, sounds harsh, and yes it would be stopping lots of decent people from immigrating. Tough. Better than the alternative of death and destruction. Why do western countries owe people who follow a doctrine that is completely incompatible with western values enttry into the country? They dont.</p>
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<p>Now they ones already there legally? If they are refugees, send them back and make sure the refugee camps are properly sorted.If they are immigrants, help them assimilate, create a structure and support to make that so, but all within the framework of a secular society that openly criticises any religion and protects the rights of its citizens above any religion.</p>
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<p>Will this happen? No. Because we still have bleeding heart fuckwits who think that if the west just changes a little bit more... and bend over and take it up the arse just a little bit more.. everything will be peachy.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="597885" data-time="1468834842">
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<p>If you are trying to promote an agenda or prove you are right you can link anything to anything. Its how we end up with Barack Obama being a Kenyan born Muslim secretly supporting ISIS. If you want something to be true, you link in anything to it.</p>
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<p>Or that a mass murderer wasnt a Muslim....</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="597884" data-time="1468834701"><p>Which instructions from Jesus were the Crusaders following? <br>
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I find it strange to always have the same debate on this topic, because all religions have at some stage done some dickish things, therefore we should not be to harsh on judging modern religions. It is insanity and appeasement of the very worst kind.<br>
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Not all religions have the same level of hate in the founding text. They are not all equal. To draw an equivalence between religions simply because they are religions is laughable.</p></blockquote>The Pope speaks to God and the Pope inspired the crusades -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="597885" data-time="1468834842">
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<p> </p>
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<p>Alternative is long term. Its peace & good govenance in Islamic areas, then school (non Islamic), good child healthcare, jobs, security. You put all that in place (as it was in the West) and religion declines.</p>
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<p>Lovely sentiment, and something I would support, but becoming increasingly fanciful as many of the attackers are 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants who were not poor or deprived.</p> -
<p>Surely we can all agree that some type of reform needs to take place in Islam, at least here in the West. Are prominent Muslims in Western countries doing anything to bring about this change? Could just be the media but I see plenty of blame-shifting and grievances but not a great deal of desire for action or change.</p>
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<p>BTW comparing Islam and Christianity in this day and age is just ridiculous. Yes the Crusades were awful when they occurred..... almost 800 fucking years ago.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="597890" data-time="1468835528">
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<p>The Pope speaks to God and the Pope inspired the crusades</p>
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<p> That wasnt my question. But lets all agree that the pope of the time was a fuckwit and no christian nowdays would even really know his name let alone do what he said. So what can we say about the teachings of Mohammed then?</p>
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<p>The hatred of the infidels is enshrined in the religious texts, it is not enshrined in the teachings of Jesus in the new testament.</p> -
<p>On the news tonight they had BBC piece, interestingly. they did not say any of the following words</p>
<p>'Muslim', 'Islam', 'Extremist', 'Fundamentalist', 'ISIS', or the attackers name. They did say that he liked to lift weights and drink power drinks. </p>
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<p>The BBC really does go out of its way to imply this was nothing to do with religion.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="597891" data-time="1468835603">
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<p>Lovely sentiment, and something I would support, but becoming increasingly fanciful as many of the attackers are 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants who were not poor or deprived.</p>
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<p>But inspired by groups in the broken states of Syria, Iraq etc.</p>
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<p>You can't have it both ways, either everyone is linked to ISIS & <strong><em>ISIS is very much a product of failed states</em></strong> or these guys aren't linked to ISIS & are a product 100% of home grown Islam</p>
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<p>I'm happy for you you to say this guy acted alone & with no instruction or inspiration from ISIS, but that feels like a new line given you link literally everything directly to ISIS...</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="597883" data-time="1468834586"><p>
Well you'll be waiting a while.<br><br>
Why do you think the role of Christianity in western countries has diminished so much? Because people challenged it. People called it out for the nonsense that it is. The religion has been forced to reform itself to fit into a secular society.<br><br>
I have not once said this is a quick fix. There is no quick fix to changing ideologies. But I know for certain that fighting an ideology with guns and bombs does not work.<br><br>
It is not people calling out Islam that is providing fuel for ISIS and other Islamic groups to recruit. It's the bombs that are constantly being dropped in the Middle East. <br><br>
I don't challenge religion because I am sure it is going to fix any problems in my lifetime. I challenge it because I am sure it is going to help fix problems for future generations.</p></blockquote>Reforming a religion takes a long time, I agree. But I'm able to separate the religion and the entity using that religion to advance their aims. As I said none of the recent batch of killers were lifetime devout, in fact quite the opposite. They weren't the strongest and best, they were criminals and losers who apparently only started attending the mosque near the end before their attacks. So what radicalised them? ISIS and other fringe hate extremist groups online or the mosque? I'd suggest a lot of radicalisation is done online, like the teenage girls who sneak off to live a life of romance as an ISIS war bride. While you're waiting for the Muslim world to come to their senses enmasse ISIS, unlike Al Qaeda control infrastructure. They are a nation state not officially recognised by anyone. So strangle their lifeblood by destroying their ability to generate income and disseminate information -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="597900" data-time="1468836569">
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<p>But inspired by groups in the broken states of Syria, Iraq etc.</p>
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<p>You can't have it both ways, either everyone is linked to ISIS & <strong><em>ISIS is very much a product of failed states</em></strong> or these guys aren't linked to ISIS & are a product 100% of home grown Islam</p>
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<p>I'm happy for you you to say this guy acted alone & with no instruction or inspiration from ISIS, but that feels like a new line given you link literally everything directly to ISIS...</p>
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<p>Your statement is a false dichotomy. There are other alternatives. You can be linked and inspired by ISIS, even trained by them and still be a 2nd or 3rd generation immigrant.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="597894" data-time="1468835730">
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<p>Surely we can all agree that some type of reform needs to take place in Islam, at least here in the West. Are prominent Muslims in Western countries doing anything to bring about this change? Could just be the media but I see plenty of blame-shifting and grievances but not a great deal of desire for action or change.</p>
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<p>BTW comparing Islam and Christianity in this day and age is just ridiculous. </p>
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<p>Similarly, comparing how they should reform is equally ridiculous because of the passage of time. Christianity reformed under a certain set of circumstances. Islam can't re-create those circumstances because they're playing in two different eras.</p>
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<p>Christianity in Europe was fairly monolithic at the time; Islam had its major schism pretty much after Muhammad carked it, and then started to fracture further. Got just as many defined sects as Christianity and Judaism now.</p>
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<p>Baron is right in that the first step is critique. I don't agree with mockery, necessarily, but they certainly need to know how to take a joke.</p>
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<p>Critique from outside - and acceptance of it by adherents - is one thing, but the real change has to come from within the Religion itself. Respected figures within the ranks of Islam must start driving this.</p>
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<p>There are a bunch of articles on the web saying Islam <em>cannot</em> be reformed, because it essentially would have to jettison the Quran and Hadith to do so, and therefore no longer be Islam. But that is to deny any religion the ability to change.</p>
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<p>Its not going to happen overnight, that's for sure. Christianity was still a daily thing in the lives of the majority of people a century ago in Australia, and has only dwindled really in the last few decades.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="597903" data-time="1468836919">
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<p>You can be linked and inspired by ISIS, even trained by them and still be a 2nd or 3rd generation immigrant.</p>
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<p>I think that is probably more likely - was watching a doco here on SBS about a French journalist who infiltrated a group of youths, posing as an extremist. The Dad was a stand up guy who was shocked and ashamed his son would do this (think they moved to France from Turkey?).</p>
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<p>Its not the rule, but a lot of the youths of those fleeing something see it as a goal to return to the old country and fight. Piss and vinegar of youth.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="597903" data-time="1468836919">
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<p>Your statement is a false dichotomy. There are other alternatives. <strong><em>You can be linked and inspired by ISIS</em></strong>, even trained by them and still be a 2nd or 3rd generation immigrant.</p>
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<p>Yes, you can. And I never said you couldn't. Indeed my post earlier said you would need to deport 3rd & 2nd generation.</p>
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<p>But my point re this is ISIS only exist because of the failed state. No failed state - no ISIS. Same way if you have an actual functioning government & no occupation in Lebanon - no Hezbollah, in Gaza - no Hamas. In Afghanistan - no AQ, Somalia - no Al Shabab. </p>
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<p>You are, in every single case shouting "ISIS!!!". My point is you remove the failed state, you remove ISIS.</p>
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<p>You can't have both ways, you link every attack to ISIS, but then when told that removing the failed states will help try to say this guy still would have done it & ISIS had no impact on him...</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="597910" data-time="1468838287"><p>I think that is probably more likely - was watching a doco here on SBS about a French journalist who infiltrated a group of youths, posing as an extremist. The Dad was a stand up guy who was shocked and ashamed his son would do this (think they moved to France from Turkey?).<br>
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Its not the rule, but a lot of the youths of those fleeing something see it as a goal to return to the old country and fight. Piss and vinegar of youth.</p></blockquote>Target rich environment