Bastille day truck crash
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="597913" data-time="1468838816">
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<p>I never compared how they should reform I asked if there were respected figures within the ranks of Islam who were driving change. As mentioned, I see little to no evidence that that is occurring in the West. Plenty of blame, plenty of concern about reprisals that never occur, but no movement willing to stand up and bring Islam into modern times.</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>There are huge numbers of respected Muslim leaders doing this, the issue would be you will never have heard of them because its not news, and because of where they are starting from they are easy to attack. EG if you went back to when Christianity started reforming you'd have mainstream christians killing unbelievers & "moderates" saying "don't kill them, they can live here, but not vote".</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Same in modern Islam, to western morality the moderates sound extreme. We want them to go from current Islam to western morals tomorrow, ignoring that any Imam preaching that will have zero joy. We'd like a Imam to stand up in Saudi & go "women should have equal rights!" but he would acheive zero as no one would listen to him & he'd get chucked out.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Muhammed Khatami is technically a moderate, and has moved Iran a lot more into the moderate Islam area, his career has been a tight rope walk between steering islam towards a more moderate path & not getting impeached & killed. But he has succeeded in getting a lot of moderate stuff through. If you went to Iran 20 years ago & then again now the difference is staggering. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="597881" data-time="1468834437">
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<p>No it is not spurious logic as it is resisting the demand to prove a negative which is a logical fallacy. He killed scores of people and ISIS have stated that he worked for them, the authorities have said he was radicalised. The onus is on those claiming he was not a Muslim and not working for ISIS to prove it, not the the way around.</p>
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<p>thinking that proving a negative is a logical fallacy is a logical fallacy.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Gary" data-cid="597931" data-time="1468843371"><p>
Luke chapter 19 verse 27, Jesus says "but those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me"</p></blockquote>
I believe BSG asked for an example of an instruction.<br><br>
This was a line from a parable, quoting a character therein. Not an instruction from the Hippy.<br><br>
Context.<br><br>
Google is your friend.<br><br><a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.gotquestions.org/parable-ten-minas.html">http://www.gotquestions.org/parable-ten-minas.html</a> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="597955" data-time="1468862309"><p>
I believe BSG asked for an example of an instruction.<br><br>
This was a line from a parable, quoting a character therein. Not an instruction from the Hippy.<br><br>
Context.<br><br>
Google is your friend.<br><br><a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.gotquestions.org/parable-ten-minas.html">http://www.gotquestions.org/parable-ten-minas.html</a></p></blockquote>
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Are you guys really going to argue about who's made up fairy tales say what? Seems pointless to me. It's all nonsense.<br><br>
Anyway life goes on here Sarkozy doing his best trump impersonation saying all radicals will be deported if he wins election. Yeah they have mostly been French nationals Nick so good luck with that. -
<p>That's it there isn't it mooshld? Some fluffybunny like Sarkozy jumping all over some shit and making up some nonsensical rubbish. Welcome back to the 1930's</p>
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<p>Next you get the far right extremists all tooled up ad looking for aggro who give a few "fucking towel heads" a kicking, maybe burn a mosque or two and suddenly it's not ISIS who are the enemy its every fucking Muslim, or someone who maybe looks like a Muslim.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>and as it escalates and a vapid French government tries to keep control, the housing projects start to burn and suddenly its 6 million enemies of France and ISIS is radicalising tens of thousands</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Because so much of what forms peoples opinions on all sides is utter cant and Farcebook posturing. It's a grim prospect but one I can see happening if it all falls the wrong way. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mooshld" data-cid="597959" data-time="1468867648"><p>
Are you guys really going to argue about who's made up fairy tales say what? Seems pointless to me. It's all nonsense.<br><br>
Anyway life goes on here Sarkozy doing his best trump impersonation saying all radicals will be deported if he wins election. Yeah they have mostly been French nationals Nick so good luck with that.</p></blockquote>
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Hey I'm not really in this argument but I did want to check the context of the quote by Gary.<br><br>
If you're going to state something as evidence make sure it is. I can't comment on what the Koran/Quran or Haddith or whatever Islam's book says. I'm not necessariky backing BSG or attacking Islam. I suppose I could google some context in the Quran if given specific references. It's really easy to look up "Luke 19:27".<br><br>
Also given my upbringing in an essentislly Christian county (i know many of "you guys" hate that reference but Western European culture is rooted in Christianity) and therefore a vague knowledge of how the Old and New Testaments work I have a starting point to go the google.<br><br>
So don't give the "you guys" line. I was only pointing out bullshit. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="597932" data-time="1468843593">
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<p>righto, all muslims have entertained the thought of mass murder. do you seriously think that?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>if the middle east 'not so much' ignores the murder the infidel bits, all us tourists have been incredibly fortunate walking among those millions of people who mostly wanted to kill us every day. i am quite intimidating though i suppose.</p>
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<p>Think you misinterpreted what I said there. I didn't say everyone in Middle Eastern countries practise the 'murder all infidels' part (though many there do), I said they don't so much ignore all the bad stuff. Hence my example about a gay nightclub.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And yes, if something is explicitaly written in the Koran telling them what to do, they have to think about it. Whether it's "Great idea!" or "errrm I'll just pretend I didn't see that" they still had to think about it. It's a nasty piece of work.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
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<p>i think it is worth bringing up christian africa. uganda in 2014 with their 'kill the gays' bill, for example. to be fair they did take the death penalty bit out, eventually, but i'm still not sure they'd warm to the proposed nightclub. and that's from the 'moderate' christians, joseph kony wasn't too keen on them at all. not the best bloke joseph. rwanda? i'm sure you've heard stories already. south sudan right now, bit messy, 300 dead the other day. and, since you're interested in christian massacres (of muslims) - the central african republic, they've been pretty hot for that the last few years. that won't get a thread though, in fact it won't even make the news.</p>
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<p>poverty, lack of education, cheapening of human life. very few people raised in peaceful places with basic needs met and a good science-based education are going to be stupid/naive enough to believe in literal following of an ancient book, (which i assume is) similar to the bible in that it is clearly not literally true.</p>
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<p>note, as usual, i am not defending islam.</p>
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<p>Is it worth bringing up Chrstian Africa? That may need another thread. One that isn't dedicated to an attack by an Islamic fundamentalist. I don't disagree with anything you say there, in fact you are kind of making my point by bringing it up. Christianity is also a shitty religion - you are happy to call it out as shitty even though not all Chrstians are like that. But when I call out Islam I get "BUT NOT ALL MUSLIMS!!". They're both shitty, regardless of how people choose to follow them. And if people follow them to the letter, then they are the cause of that, because that is how they are meant to be followed. Even if not everybody follows them to the letter.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Further to this, the people that pick and choose which parts of a religion to follow <em>really </em>grate me. Either follow it or don't, stop fucking around pretending to be religious so you can claim to be holier then thou while not actually doing what your holy book says. Those are the people that need to stop validating these religions.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="597917" data-time="1468839794">
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<p>Genuinely curious in this "impacts my lifetime" bit. How?</p>
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<p>But NQ I may be misinterpreting this as "impacts my life" or "impacts my lifestyle"</p>
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<p>However perhaps the tenet is the same- how does a religion you are not part of impact your life?</p>
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<p>I live in a western country and have dual citizenship meaning I move between NZ and Europe. I don't want to go back to Europe right now. Why? Because Islamic fundamentalists are committing mass murder more and more regularly. So yes, it impacts my life.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="597919" data-time="1468840240">
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<p>I think it's education of the subsequent generations (the kids) that spells the death knell of religions.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Not critique or mockery or any outsiders calling it all hogwash (actually think those tactics prove counterproductive to any argument involving human beliefs)</p>
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<p>I also think it's why the religious state leaders go out of their way to make sure the kids aren't exposed to proper education. I've lived and taught in countries where that very much is the case.</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>THAT'S the the reason religion is waning in developed countries <u>and</u> standing in a developed country and pointing to less developed countries and saying "you should be more like us" is total folly </p>
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<p>Of course science-based education is key. So is being able to criticise bad ideas, because criticising bad ideas is the basis of science. Appeasing religion because we are scared of offending people is just slowing the whole process down.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="597984" data-time="1468881693">
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<p>Can we start a pool on where the next attack will be? Or maybe some sort of bingo type deal, first to tick off place, toll, method , Isis related yes/no etc etc.</p>
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<p>Germany</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/82240027/axe-attacker-in-german-train-rampage--reports'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/82240027/axe-attacker-in-german-train-rampage--reports</a></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="597984" data-time="1468881693">
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<p> Isis related yes/no etc etc.</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>Pretty broad.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I know ISIS have claimed Nice, but usually they wait for the public declaration of allegiance to come to light first - did that come through to Police or get sent on FB or something? I haven't been watching closely the last couple of days (trying to save a rugby club).</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="597976" data-time="1468879647">
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<p>Think you misinterpreted what I said there. I didn't say everyone in Middle Eastern countries practise the 'murder all infidels' part (though many there do), I said they don't so much ignore all the bad stuff. Hence my example about a gay nightclub.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And yes, if something is explicitaly written in the Koran telling them what to do, they have to think about it. Whether it's "Great idea!" or "errrm I'll just pretend I didn't see that" they still had to think about it. It's a nasty piece of work.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Is it worth bringing up Chrstian Africa? That may need another thread. One that isn't dedicated to an attack by an Islamic fundamentalist. I don't disagree with anything you say there, in fact you are kind of making my point by bringing it up. Christianity is also a shitty religion - you are happy to call it out as shitty even though not all Chrstians are like that. But when I call out Islam I get "BUT NOT ALL MUSLIMS!!". They're both shitty, regardless of how people choose to follow them. And if people follow them to the letter, then they are the cause of that, because that is how they are meant to be followed. Even if not everybody follows them to the letter.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Further to this, the people that pick and choose which parts of a religion to follow <em>really </em>grate me. Either follow it or don't, stop fucking around pretending to be religious so you can claim to be holier then thou while not actually doing what your holy book says. Those are the people that need to stop validating these religions.</p>
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<p>but you see, it just isn't many at all that practice 'murder all infidels' - otherwise there would be a lot more dead infidels, after all there are over 400 million people in the middle east.</p>
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<p>i'm a very evidence-based person, and as such not religious at all, but i haven't said christianity is a shitty religion in that post. i'm just pointing out that shit things happen in christian countries too, when they're poor and uneducated. i can and do point out shit things happening in muslim countries, but to me it is pretty obvious what the cause is, and it ain't a book.</p>
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<p>if the books are the key then why didn't the peaceful teachings of jesus stop the crusades, why doesn't it stop what happens in africa - you could go to some of these places and have them all watch the sound of music every sunday and they'd still be killing each other. you say 'not everybody follows them literally'. but does anyone here know a single christian who follows the bible literally? does anyone here know a single muslim that follows the koran literally? it's not just 'not everybody', it is pretty much nobody. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="597977" data-time="1468879825">
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<p>I live in a western country and have dual citizenship meaning I move between NZ and Europe. I don't want to go back to Europe right now. Why? Because Islamic fundamentalists are committing mass murder more and more regularly. So yes, it impacts my life.</p>
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<p>as mind-fuckingly awful as these events are, statistically you're still far, far more likely to die in a car accident there. despite a big reduction that's still 20,000 or so deaths per year in the EU. the old brexit will drop that a touch though i guess...</p>
<p> </p>
<p>have a look at the graphs etc here: <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/03/terrorism-in-europe-at-historical-high/'>https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/03/terrorism-in-europe-at-historical-high/</a></p> -
Indeed. Terrorism is merely a minor irritant and we should just get used to it. It's also a great excuse to change Facebook profile!
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="598008" data-time="1468890012"><p>
Indeed. Terrorism is merely a minor irritant and we should just get used to it. It's also a great excuse to change Facebook profile!</p></blockquote>
This reminds me of my brother in law who works for an animal conservation charity. He's fixated with sharks and often spouts the bullshit statistics about how many attacks there are a year and his charity tried get YouTube to change shark attack to shark incident on their videos.<br>
I showed him the Eric Ritter video which starts off with the " sharks don't want to hurt people" bullshit but ends very very badly.<br><br>
Edited after searching his name , <a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/bahamas/1391717/Yoga-theory-fails-to-save-scientist-from-shark-bite.html">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/bahamas/1391717/Yoga-theory-fails-to-save-scientist-from-shark-bite.html</a> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="598008" data-time="1468890012">
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<p>Indeed. Terrorism is merely a minor irritant and we should just get used to it. It's also a great excuse to change Facebook profile!</p>
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<p>deliberately obtuse. obviously it is different in that it is deliberate. obviously it should be addressed. obviously it is terrible.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>none of which has any bearing on my point that avoiding europe because of the likelihood of an event is not a logical decision and is not borne out by the statistics.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="598033" data-time="1468896832">
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<p>deliberately obtuse. obviously it is different in that it is deliberate. obviously it should be addressed. obviously it is terrible.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>none of which has any bearing on my point that avoiding europe because of the likelihood of an event is not a logical decision and is not borne out by the statistics.</p>
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<p>I don't agree that it's entirely illogical. In just the past few months we've seen bombs at airports in Brussels and Istanbul, massacres in Paris and Nice and now an axe attack in Germany. France currently has 10,000 soldiers and as many police patrolling the streets. What really scares the shit out of me is the thought of what things would be like if it wasn't for the billions and countless hours spent on counterterrorism and deradicalisation. While it might be the suitably progressive thing to tut tut that other religions are just as bad, the evidence in Europe in 2016 (not 1272) would tend to indicate otherwise.</p>