David Bain
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="602373" data-time="1470114205">
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<p>Can't agree. either he's guilty or not. </p>
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<p>He's found not guilty, thus he's spent 13 year wrongfully imprisoned.</p>
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<p>He's due compensation.</p>
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<p>Iam sure this has been covered but he has NOT been found innocent, in fact it appears the report says he is on probability the killer.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="602377" data-time="1470114519">
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<p>That may be your opinion of how it should work but that is not how it does work.</p>
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<p>The original Canadian report was terrible because they recommended Bain get compensation because he was found not guilty with reasonable doubt. In New Zealand you need to be found innocent on the balance of probabilities to receive compensation. I don't see why we should be paying money to someone who probably killed his family.</p>
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<p>So one of 2 things is happening here.</p>
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<p>The law is allowing a man who the law believes killed his family in a violent rampage to walk around freely.</p>
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<p>The law is not compensating a man who was wrongfully convicted.</p>
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<p>Both of them stink.</p>
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<p>I understand that eveybody is pretty much so in the grey on this, but I don't think the law should allow for that. If he was wrongly found guilty beyond reasonable doubt, then he was wrongly imprisoned and deserves compensation.</p> -
Yeah I just don't think you get the finer points of how the legal system works there major rage. <br><br>
It's grey for a reason as little is black and white. Sure if security cameras showed robin Bain shoot his family then turn the gun on himself I'd be all for compensation. But that case has more going against David than for him. But not definitively enough against him to exclude the possibility robin might have been the perpretator. <br><br>
Compensation = justice system stuffed up. Which is not at all the case here. -
Your q for the day major rage: are juries reliable?
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Billy Tell" data-cid="602389" data-time="1470115490">
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<p>Yeah I just don't think you get the finer points of how the legal system works there major rage.<br><br>
It's grey for a reason as little is black and white. Sure if security cameras showed robin Bain shoot his family then turn the gun on himself I'd be all for compensation. But that case has more going against David than for him. But not definitively enough against him to exclude the possibility robin might have been the perpretator.<br><br>
Compensation = justice system stuffed up. Which is not at all the case here.</p>
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<p>Yeah, 100% I don't.</p>
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<p>I actually inside believe what others do. Ok, he's released, but it seems flimsy at best, so no compensation. What I have a problem with, is the way the legal systems is saying the same thing. They have all the facts, I don't. When you sentence somebody for murder (or multiple murder), it's basically either life in the slammer, or walk out of the court. If the conviction is quashed after 13 years, then it means he should have walked out 13 year ago. And therefore has lost 13 year of his life.</p>
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<p>Are juries reliable? Never served on one, but I'd suggest probably not. Doesn't really change my view though.</p> -
<p>so he had to prove his innocence on the balance of probability, which apparently was not a case of simply saying Robin or someone else did it</p>
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<p>I have added a poll</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="602395" data-time="1470117846"><p>
so he had to prove his innocence on the balance of probability, which apparently was not a case of simply saying Robin or someone else did it<br><br>
I have added a poll</p></blockquote>IIRC the prosecution case or the police case had some procedural snafus that gave Bain wiggle room too? -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="602400" data-time="1470118649">
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<p>IIRC the prosecution case or the police case had some procedural snafus that gave Bain wiggle room too?</p>
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<p>I think if you went through any case you'd probably be able to find holes here and there , especially if you were motivated out of greed and self aggrandisement <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/2486812/Karam-gets-330-000-in-legal-aid'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/2486812/Karam-gets-330-000-in-legal-aid</a></p> -
<p>Surely anyone born prior to the late 70's, early 80's in NZ and was here still when the case hit the news has thier own opinion on his guilt/innocence, not many would be fence sitters from what you read?</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="602403" data-time="1470118934">
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<p>Surely anyone born prior to the late 70's, early 80's in NZ and was here still when the case hit the news has thier own opinion on his guilt/innocence, not many would be fence sitters from what you read?</p>
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<p>My stepdad isn't convinced either way which I agree is pretty rare. His career was winding down when Karam shifted to play for Horowhenua and he is as convinced as I am for from his dealings with him that he's a fluffybunny. It says on his rugby museum profile his nickname was "clock" [sp?] because he was such and accurate goal kicker, my old man reckons its more to do with the fact he had an interest in a jewelers and back in the days before atms people used to carry a decent sum of cash around with them. Karam apparently used to take a few watches to the after match with him and flog them off to his team mates and opposition when they were drunk. $900000 to his son and $333000 to Joe when he has no legal qualifications seems in keeping with that kind of person.</p>
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<p>I reckon David did it, I mentioned on another thread a horrible interaction with his aunt when my boss decided to tell her how pleased he was David was acquitted.</p> -
<p>I've kinda switched off to a lot of this over the years because Bain never particularly endeared himself to me ( harsh I know, those sweaters didn't help ) whereas in the early years I did take a big interest in how Schapelle Corby was going ( being trashy but a bit hot helped )</p>
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<p>So due to the fact this has been in and out of the news for over 20 years if anyone could answer some of the questions below I'd appreciate it.....</p>
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<p>How did Joe Karam get himself involved to the extent he did ? why ?</p>
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<p>Can anyone with extensive legal knowledge explain the reason for the "stalemate" which MajorRage mentions above ?</p>
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<p>EDIT: Jegga, can you explain a bit more what you mean by the money to each person bit in your post ?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="602407" data-time="1470119565">
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<p>I've kinda switched off to a lot of this over the years because Bain never particularly endeared himself to me ( harsh I know, those sweaters didn't help ) whereas in the early years I did take a big interest in how Schapelle Corby was going ( being trashy but a bit hot helped )</p>
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<p>So due to the fact this has been in and out of the news for over 20 years if anyone could answer some of the questions below I'd appreciate it.....</p>
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<p><strong>How did Joe Karem get himself involved to the extent he did ? why ?</strong></p>
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<p>Can anyone with extensive legal knowledge explain the reason for the "stalemate" which MajorRage mentions above ?</p>
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<p>Ego and money, in an interview with the listener he told the reporter he was the only ex ab that had ever used their profile to help anyone. When she pointed out what John Kirwins done for depression , Meads for the IHC , Whineray did for charities etc etc he didn't have much of a response.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="602408" data-time="1470119776">
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<p>Ego and money, in an interview with the listener he told the reporter he was the only ex ab that had ever used their profile to help anyone. When she pointed out what John Kirwins done for depression , Meads for the IHC , Whineray did for charities etc etc he didn't have much of a response.</p>
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<p>I'm getting that you don't seem to think much of him but I've heard he's spent a fucken fortune on all of this without getting a hell of a lot in return ?</p> -
<p>Compo is (and should be) for wrongful conviction i.e. when errors are made and facts distorted to get a conviction that the legal system hasn't been able to protect the accused from.</p>
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<p>In this case errors were made and there was an element of 'tunnel vision'. There was evidence withheld which 'may' have led a jury to a different conclusion (as it eventually did).</p>
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<p>Once convicted though, our compo system will only pay out if you can prove innocence (quite a hard thing to do in some cases) rather than prove that you shouldn't have been convicted (because guilt is not beyond reasonable doubt). The goalposts move after the wrongful part has happened. </p>
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<p>I don't think that is a fair and even system myself however in this case I have both doubts on conviction AND doubts on innocence, which I believe is the very position the govt is in.</p>
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<p>On the happenings themselves I strongly suspect that Bain has convinced himself he did nothing (and may have even convinced himself very early on). There is some psych term for it that I can't remember but it is to do with extreme stress. I don't think the crown version of events is entirely correct either and that Robin played a part. The whole thing looks way more complicated an event than either party attests to.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="602410" data-time="1470120437">
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<p>I'm getting that you don't seem to think much of him but I've heard he's spent a fucken fortune on all of this without getting a hell of a lot in return ?</p>
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<p>Heard from who? Hes written three books about the clown and him and his son have made $1.2 mill according to the link I posted. </p> -
This is my favourite article on the matter. I'm on my phone so don't know how to paste the article into the post, but it's a good read - intriguing questions at the end as well. <br><br>
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/8075826/Compensation-for-Bain-would-be-a-travesty'>http://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/8075826/Compensation-for-Bain-would-be-a-travesty</a> -
I used to sit next to him in psychology tutorials at Otago uni - you never forget those jerseys.<br><br>
I don't know if he did it.<br><br>
But there's something awry in our country when you lose 13 years and don't get compo. I can feel empathy for that. It's the sort of shit I'd expect from a corrupt 3rd world place.<br><br>
Yes I understand that rules are followed but I expect better.