17 Test AB to Play for Tonga at World Cup



  • Piutau to play for Tonga. That will strengthn them up

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/99395094/charles-piutau-wants-to-play-for-tonga-at-rugby-world-cup

    I didn't realise that you could switch allegence. Seems like a good enough rule to strengthen PI rugby for WC's



  • I saw that Charles Piutau is considering a change of nation for 2019. When in the blue fuck did this happen?

    The article said so long as a player has the correct passport and has not played for 3 years they would be eligible. I thought this rule was when a player like Sivivatu came from living in Fiji, but had not represented Fiji yet, was have to fulfilled some term of residency. When did the rule change to allow players to represent multiple countries?



  • @raznomore think it is down to the Olympic eligibility rules, so he would need to go and play in a certain number of 7s tournaments (think it was Tim Nanai-Williams that did it?)



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  • @hooroo ok, I thought it was only through the Olympic 'loophole' they could do this, wasn't the 3 year stand down the old rule (see Joeli Vdiri) that has been gone for many years.



  • Good for Tonga. He wouldn't make the All Blacks in his current condition anyway.



  • I read this as being 17 ethnic Tongan former All-Blacks were wanting to exploit the olympic loophole to play for Tonga.

    Now that would really help Tonga .....

    I had to click the link to clarify.

    Loads of Samoans & Tongans were reported as indicating they were keen to exploit the loophole last time before 2015. But the merest of barriers (playing a few qualifying tournaments) seemed to be too much of a hinderance either for the player, the club or both.



  • That article is incorrect, only way he can do it is by playing an Olympic 7s qualifying tournament. No such thing as a three-year stand down.



  • @wurzel said in 17 Test AB to Play for Tonga at World Cup:

    That article is incorrect, only way he can do it is by playing an Olympic 7s qualifying tournament. No such thing as a three-year stand down.

    The aricle says;

    Players can switch allegiance provided they have a passport for that country and haven't played international rugby for three years.
    

    It should say;

    Players can switch allegiance provided they have a passport for that country and haven't played international rugby for three years. AND, their first appeaance for the new country is an Olympic qualifying event.
    

    E.g. By the time of the 2020 Olympic qualifiers, if Piutau hasn't played for NZ for 3 years, he can play 4 Olympic qualifying events for Tonga 7's. After that he can also play 15s for Tonga.

    Whether any of that can occur before the 2019 RWC is unknown yet, but likely/possible. If 2020 Olympic qualifiers are in 2018 or early 2019.



  • This is what the World Rugby Regulations say (I've simplified it):

    The Rule
    Under Regulation 8.2, a player who has represented the senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team, the next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team or the senior National Representative Sevens Team of a Union (where the Player has reached the age of twenty on or before the date of participation) is not eligible to play for another Union.

    The exception
    Under Regulation 8.12, a player who has represented the Union or Olympic Sevens Team of which he is a national, in an Olympic Event, shall thereafter be tied to that Union (or an underlying Union of the Olympic Sevens Team) for all forms of the Game and in all events (some exceptions apply).

    So a player can play for another country's XVs team after representing that country at an Olympic event.

    Conditions:
    (a) he participates as a Player in no less than half of the tournaments in a series of World Rugby or Regional Association Olympic qualification tournaments.
    (b) he participates as a Player in a standalone World Rugby or Regional Association Olympic qualification tournament
    (c) he participates as a Player in the Olympic Games.

    Now, this is where the 3-year stand down comes from:

    Eligibility to participate in Olympic Events
    As a general rule, the same rules as in Reg 8.1-8.4 (so including the rule in 8.2) apply. In addition, the player must have the nationality of the country he is representing at an Olympic event. (Regulation 8.7)

    Regulation 8.7.2 states that if a player has represented a Union (and is therefore captured by Reg 8.2), he may apply to participate in an Olympic Event to represent his new country or Union subject to a number of conditions, including observing a stand down period of at least three (3) years since the time the Player last represented his former Union and the time the Player first plays for the second Union or country, which must be in an Olympic Event.

    SCHEDULE 2. OLYMPIC EVENTS

    1. The Olympic Games 2020 – Tokyo

    2. The Men’s Olympic Events:
      _ World Rugby Sevens World Series 2018/2019
      _ Designated Regional Olympic Qualification Tournaments (ROQTs):

    • Africa 2019 Regional Sevens Championships
    • Asia 2019 Regional Sevens Championships
    • Europe 2019 Regional Sevens Championships
    • North America 2019 Regional Sevens Championships
    • Oceania 2019 Regional Sevens Championships
    • South America 2019 Regional Sevens Championships
      [to be confirmed]

    Regulation 8 : ELIGIBILITY TO PLAY FOR NATIONAL REPRESENTATIVE TEAMS



  • By the way, Charles Piutau is not the first to express a wish to represent another country after having represented New Zealand. In this thread we discussed Robbie Fruean, who wants to rep Samoa at the 2019 RWC, but has played for the Junior All Blacks (officially New Zealand's "next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team").

    Edited to add:
    The weird situation is, that Robbie Fruean will have to play half of the tournaments of the 2018/19 World Sevens Series, while Charles Piutau has to play the Oceania 2019 Regional Sevens Championships because Tonga doesn't belong to the World Series core nations (unless they qualify as a core nation this year via the Hong Kong leg of this year's Series).



  • Is it just me or is this all a bit retarded. Sevens should have nothing to do with eligibility in the 15 man game.

    I personally don't really care if someone represents multiple countries. Imagine if Michael Jones had never played for the AB's, he was my idol as a young flanker.



  • @chimoaus Without the sevens connection, there wouldn't be a possibility to change countries at all. This eligibility loophole only came into existence once sevens became an Olympic sport.

    I do care if someone represents multiple countries (without at least a 3 year stand down), for the simple reason that a player who has played for one country (say the ABs) and then wants to play for another (say, England) can take a whole lot of precious information with him to the new team. In the hypothetical case that Brad Shields had played for the ABs this year, and would qualify immediately for England next year, just think what info he could give the England coach & squad about game plans, special moves, training methods etc! Most people only think of former ABs with PI heritage playing for Fiji, Tonga or Samoa, but eligibility rules apply always to all countries!



  • @stargazer said in 17 Test AB to Play for Tonga at World Cup:

    @chimoaus Without the sevens connection, there wouldn't be a possibility to change countries at all. This eligibility loophole only came into existence once sevens became an Olympic sport.

    I do care if someone represents multiple countries (without at least a 3 year stand down), for the simple reason that a player who has played for one country (say the ABs) and then wants to play for another (say, England) can take a whole lot of precious information with him to the new team. In the hypothetical case that Brad Shields had played for the ABs this year, and would qualify immediately for England next year, just think what info he could give the England coach & squad about game plans, special moves, training methods etc! Most people only think of former ABs with PI heritage playing for Fiji, Tonga or Samoa, but eligibility rules apply always to all countries!

    That bold bit kind of placates your own point. Anyone removed from the set up for 3 years probably know sweet FA about whats happening in what would be a team 3 years down the road. This law is about to become 5 years as on 2021 as well.



  • @raznomore said in 17 Test AB to Play for Tonga at World Cup:

    @stargazer said in 17 Test AB to Play for Tonga at World Cup:

    @chimoaus Without the sevens connection, there wouldn't be a possibility to change countries at all. This eligibility loophole only came into existence once sevens became an Olympic sport.

    I do care if someone represents multiple countries (without at least a 3 year stand down), for the simple reason that a player who has played for one country (say the ABs) and then wants to play for another (say, England) can take a whole lot of precious information with him to the new team. In the hypothetical case that Brad Shields had played for the ABs this year, and would qualify immediately for England next year, just think what info he could give the England coach & squad about game plans, special moves, training methods etc! Most people only think of former ABs with PI heritage playing for Fiji, Tonga or Samoa, but eligibility rules apply always to all countries!

    That bold bit kind of placates your own point. Anyone removed from the set up for 3 years probably know sweet FA about whats happening in what would be a team 3 years down the road. This law is about to become 5 years as on 2021 as well.

    Not sure what you mean with "placating my own point". My point was clearly that I don't agree with someone changing the country they want to represent without a 3 year stand down. Implicitly, that means that I don't care/care less with a 3 year stand down.

    Anyway, I'm not so sure about the bit I bolded in your post. The residency rule is changing from 3 to 5 years, but that's something different from the stand down rule in case of changing the country you want to play for (which isn't necessarily linked to residency). Or are both changing?



  • @stargazer If there is a 3 year rule in place and there is nothing on the table to change that rule then you have nothing to worry about.





  • I'm seeing Ma'a Nonu's name mentioned, and I'm a huge Nonu fan, but seeing him in a different national rep jersey to me stinks of mercenariness, and 'tho would be good for Tonga, I'm not convinced the optics are good for the game.



  • @salacious-crumb said in 17 Test AB to Play for Tonga at World Cup:

    I'm seeing Ma'a Nonu's name mentioned, and I'm a huge Nonu fan, but seeing him in a different national rep jersey to me stinks of mercenariness, and 'tho would be good for Tonga, I'm not convinced the optics are good for the game.

    Nonu's name has been mentioned by who though? People on internet forums, that don't understand the olympic loophole randomly listing Pasifika players no longer playing in NZ?

    Nonu will be aged about 36 by the time the small Olympic loophole window occurs which would then maybe allow him to to then represent Samoa at 15s aged 37. (If the Samoan 7s coach was prepared to risk their Olympic qualification to shoehorn in an unsuitably over-muscled & old 15s specialist for one last hurrah).



  • I also suspect Duncan Johnstone doesn't understand the Olympic loopholes.

    Piutau isn't advocating for a change in current eligibilty rules (that I have read), he's just publicly stated that in approx 18 months time he intends to exploit the current olympic loophole in a desire to play for Tonga at the world cup in 2 years time.

    This loophole existed before Charles decided to leave NZ in 2015.





  • @taniwharugby

    Damn.
    That article also completely undermines my point about Piutau not advocating to change current rules; "Piutau has told the Daily Mail that administrators need to match the laws used by their rugby league counterparts"

    My apologies Duncan ......



  • "Piutau has told the Daily Mail that administrators need to match the laws used by their rugby league counterparts"

    If accurate (it is the Daily Mail) administrators need to tell Piutau where to get off, no way do we need a relaxing of international rules, the fact the IOC have created this hole is one thing, but making it easier aint the way to go.

    That said, I have always thought a one way rule form tier 1 to 2 should have a different set of requirements, although then you have a line at which time a team is no longer tier 2, or a team drops form 1 to 2....

    Thought Johnstone made some good points in his article.



  • I'd be happy for Frank Halai to switch back to Tonga, because he is properly Tongan.

    I can understand why these players would be advocating for a blanket change rather than having to go through the loophole, because only 10% of the fuckers who 'indicated an interest in switching" last time actually were prepared to front up and sacrifice some lucre while they spent a few months squeezing through that loophole. The loophole was too small once money was considered.

    Personally, I quite like that there is a bit of a barrier to switch, that players have to make a bit of a sacrifice to 'follow their dreams". Forego some pay, risk an injury etc.

    Maybe Piutau will be rich enough in 18 months time to do this, being the highest paid player in the world.

    I don't rate their chances of getting through a change. People on forums will tease the celtic nations that "it was changed back in 2000 because the PIs were beating the lower ranked T1 teams". But rugby is growing, why would Georgia, Romania, Canada, USA etc want that rule changed?

    If the PIs sort out their governance they'll get more votes at IRB council and might have a chance of advancing their wishes.



  • @salacious-crumb said in 17 Test AB to Play for Tonga at World Cup:

    I'm seeing Ma'a Nonu's name mentioned, and I'm a huge Nonu fan, but seeing him in a different national rep jersey to me stinks of mercenariness, and 'tho would be good for Tonga, I'm not convinced the optics are good for the game.

    It would be a massive coup for Tonga considering he is Samoan....



  • Agree with much that has already been posted. I think the arguments that have emerged since Charles Piutau's wish to play for Tonga was published, have centred around the question of whether World Rugby should allow the same kind of eligibility rules as league (allowing easy country hopping), i.e. an eligibility rule change (instead of only the 7s loophole).

    What would also annoy me - if the rules were changed to allow players to hop countries - is that not only former ABs who were born in Fiji, Tonga or Samoa and lived there during at least their childhood years would be able to play for those countries, but also players of Island heritage, who have never lived there. To me, commitment to a certain cultural heritage is not the same as commitment to a country (i.e. national heritage).
    Basically, this is the same thing that annoys me about uncapped players becoming immediately eligible for a country under the (grand)parent rule!

    I've also seen the argument that having these former ABs in the PI squads would help develop the game in the PI nations. How exactly? Because they would attract more sponsors and the money would go to development programmes? Isn't WR already pouring money into those programmes? And what if that money disappears in the pockets of administrators?
    If these players want to help develop rugby in the PI nations, then they can take up coaching in the Islands after retirement as a player!

    In the unrelated discussion of revenue sharing, I read the opinion of one former Samoan player about how important playing for Samoa is for local players. It gives them the opportunity to showcase their talent and skill on the international stage in the hope of scoring a club contract overseas and become a well-paid professional player. How is that going to happen if former internationals of other countries are going to take those spots in the national squad?



  • @rapido said in 17 Test AB to Play for Tonga at World Cup:

    Nonu's name has been mentioned by who though?

    Mentioned by The New Zealand Herald, TVNZ, Stuff, and the UK Express (and maybe some I missed.).



  • @raznomore said in 17 Test AB to Play for Tonga at World Cup:

    @salacious-crumb said in 17 Test AB to Play for Tonga at World Cup:

    I'm seeing Ma'a Nonu's name mentioned, and I'm a huge Nonu fan, but seeing him in a different national rep jersey to me stinks of mercenariness, and 'tho would be good for Tonga, I'm not convinced the optics are good for the game.

    It would be a massive coup for Tonga considering he is Samoan....

    That's where I was mistaken. I thought he was a New Zealander.



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  • @raznomore

    He represented New Zealand in an All Black uniform. If he'll be allowed to represent Samoa, what's to stop him from representing Japan?



  • I am a New Zealander first and foremost but I am also Samoan. I have a problem with people switching allegiances at the drop of a hat like Fafita, Fusitua and Taumalolo did. Tonie Carroll was the worst for me as he didn't go an play for a minnow, he switched from the Kiwis to Australia.

    But this is something different and I guess, as I mentioned in another thread, the older I get the more of an intrinsic pull I feel to my Island background. But I think this is different in that the players we are talking about are already lost to NZ. Not all are cast offs, Nonu could probably still walk into the ABs midfield at 36 and Piutau still has a lot to offer at his young age. But many of these players who could switch allegiances are over the hill, out of the picture and out of the set up. If there is a minimum stand down period of 3 years I think let them go. Let them represent a minnow. If the world cup is more hotly contested because of stronger PI teams the greater the spectacle it will be.

    Where I have an issue is the potential for a player to switch from Ab's to England or Australia.



  • @salacious-crumb said in 17 Test AB to Play for Tonga at World Cup:

    @raznomore

    He represented New Zealand in an All Black uniform. If he'll be allowed to represent Samoa, what's to stop him from representing Japan?

    @salacious-crumb said in 17 Test AB to Play for Tonga at World Cup:

    @raznomore

    He represented New Zealand in an All Black uniform. If he'll be allowed to represent Samoa, what's to stop him from representing Japan?

    Does he have something that ties him to Japan?



  • @raznomore this could be something ¥ 😉



  • Piutau is a fantastic rugby player and he would have played a packet of tests for NZ. However he preferred a packet of money...and all this smacks of wanting cake and eating too...rather than a genuine, heartfelt desire to help out the country where his parents (or ?grandparents) were born. As Johnstone said, if he really had Tongan rugby at heart, he would have declared for them back in the day.



  • @raznomore said in 17 Test AB to Play for Tonga at World Cup:

    @salacious-crumb said in 17 Test AB to Play for Tonga at World Cup:

    I'm seeing Ma'a Nonu's name mentioned, and I'm a huge Nonu fan, but seeing him in a different national rep jersey to me stinks of mercenariness, and 'tho would be good for Tonga, I'm not convinced the optics are good for the game.

    It would be a massive coup for Tonga considering he is Samoan....

    This post is some of your best work Raz



  • @billy-tell its that easy is it? You can't have a desire to rep either country?



  • @mn5 I wasn't really working at all on that one and to be fair @Rapido had already beaten me to it



  • @raznomore as Johnstone alludes to in his article, Piutau made a decision about money to leave, he is now only supposedly considering Tonga because he cant play for the ABs...if there was no restriction on ABs playing offshore do you think he'd still be thinking the same?

    The AB jersey is what got him into the position he finds himself today, if he had opted for his heart and went with Tonga years ago, I dont think he would be commanding the salary he is, but he still wants to play international rugby, despite using NZ to help push his value.

    The 'romantic' view is they play for thier heritage, but is that helpful to the teams, maybe displacing someone for a RWC...stopping some youngsters committing if they get a shot at say the ABs thinking oh well I can always change later.



  • @taniwharugby said in 17 Test AB to Play for Tonga at World Cup:

    @raznomore this could be something ¥ 😉

    Still need citizenship.

    The most famous example of people misunderstanding the Olympic loophole was when former NZ7s player David Smith got called up to French 15-a-side squad a few years ago.

    Smith did have French citizenship, because he had married a local, but he hadn't played any Olympic qualifying tournaments.



  • @raznomore said in 17 Test AB to Play for Tonga at World Cup:

    @billy-tell its that easy is it? You can't have a desire to rep either country?

    It will all get interesting if Bristol say “you can play 7s to qualify for Tonga...but for the 4 months you are away, we will keep £400,000”.

    We’ll see then how altruistic Charles really is.


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