Highlanders 2025
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Split the discussion about 10s into it's own thread:
https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/7314/current-depth-at-10 -
What a load of uninspired bollocks. Renton sounds and looks about as inspiring as a wet piece of cardboard.
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@KiwiInLondon said in Highlanders 2025:
What a load of uninspired bollocks. Renton sounds and looks about as inspiring as a wet piece of cardboard.
Mate, seriously. What do you expect them to be like after having 46 points put on them and 33 unanswered points in the second half?
What you’re seeing is disappointment. I’d rather see that. You want them to put on some fake smiles and pretend to be happy for the camera? Some people will just find anything to have a whinge about.
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@Landers92 said in Highlanders 2025:
@KiwiInLondon said in Highlanders 2025:
What a load of uninspired bollocks. Renton sounds and looks about as inspiring as a wet piece of cardboard.
Mate, seriously. What do you expect them to be like after having 46 points put on them and 33 unanswered points in the second half?
What you’re seeing is disappointment. I’d rather see that. You want them to put on some fake smiles and pretend to be happy for the camera? Some people will just find anything to have a whinge about.
What I’m seeing is a lack of accountability, dodging the real questions, having no answers other than oh we’re young and getting there. Same fixture last year, that same young group picked themselves back up and went from 28-0 to 28-21. The excuses JJ is using don’t really hold a lot of water.
It’s not whinging, it’s calling out bullshit. Sorry you’d rather bury your head in the sand and say “oh well next year, we’re growing!” every year for diminishing returns. Stop being so wet and see it for what it is, dogshite coaching with dogshite playing
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Well...
Like it or not. These (as you put it) 'dogshite' players under the 'dogshite' coaching are the group responsible for changing things.
We have the best head coach possible the franchise can source. The assistants are who he could source.
We won't be getting a whole lot of established players or internationally capped guys coming in. The players to come in are young, and stuck behind established players like how we have picked up Tangitau and Vikena. Or players who have come through our system.
The established players we did recruit in the last five to six years, with the exception of two or three have been awful. Hunt, Paea, Kurindrani, Ben-Nicholas, Makalio, Lowe. Heck one year Solomon Alaimalo was our marque signing and we all remember how that went. At least the guys coming in are a step up.
With our current set up and playing group we are also limited around our captaincy choices. Outside of the current duo. The other choices are Withy (24 yo), Holland (22), de Groot (Joseph seems reluctant) or Dunshea (who would make Renton seem very talkative).
10/12 is a problem. It isn't going to be remedied anytime soon. We have to be creative with what we have. As I mentioned. I'd be interested in seeing something different and trying out Hurley at 10.
The biggest challenge is to not perpetually being in rebuild mode. To get to a point where the majority of our guys are four to five years into their Super careers. Are established players. We can't be shedding players to and having to start again.
In a stating the bloody obvious we need a few guys in the All Blacks. Bring that high performance expectation, and the ability to share knowledge. To do that, we need to have a well performing side to help the strong guys showcase their skills.
Being beaten by 30 points sucks. I have no desire to change your mind. I don't think it is possible. As a squad we are so in the red experience wise compared to our oponents. Chiefs had over 100 international caps on their bench. We had about 150 Super games between our eight guys. Mostly made up by Lowe and Gilbert.
Still doesn't excuse 30% of the field being left open on defence. Or guys missing easy tackles.
There has been a lot of two steps forward. One step backwards with the side. We should have won some of the earlier games this season.
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Injury update.
Caleb Tangitau (Groin / 1-2 weeks)
Tanielu Tele’a (Hamstring / 1-2 weeks)
Jona Nareki (Knee/ 1-2 weeks)
Daniel Lienert-Brown (Foot / 1-2 weeks)
Nikora Broughton (Knee / MCL 5-7 weeks)
Finn Hurley (Quad / Season)
Hayden Michaels (Hamstring / Season)
Ajay Faleafaga (Hand / Season)
James Arscott (Shoulder / TBC) -
About a year ago we beat the Crusaders… for the rest of last year we made steady progress, we then recruited well, and started this season well.
We then steadily took steps backwards from after that Blues game, and now it feels like we are back where we started.
I’m not sure you can really blame the injuries. What was concerning about last night was it felt like the coaching staff panicked… they changed some of the things which were working, and unsurprisingly that didn’t go well.
JJ walked in and said he wanted Dermody’s job… has he been an upgrade? The way we are tracking we might get the spoon, and that will be so damaging to any long-term plans. I feel gutted.
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@frugby said in Highlanders 2025:
About a year ago we beat the Crusaders… for the rest of last year we made steady progress, we then recruited well, and started this season well.
We then steadily took steps backwards from after that Blues game, and now it feels like we are back where we started.
I’m not sure you can really blame the injuries. What was concerning about last night was it felt like the coaching staff panicked… they changed some of the things which were working, and unsurprisingly that didn’t go well.
JJ walked in and said he wanted Dermody’s job… has he been an upgrade? The way we are tracking we might get the spoon, and that will be so damaging to any long-term plans. I feel gutted.
So beating a 13 man Blues team off the back of a freak Hurley chip and chase was your basis for everything starting to go right?
I got shat on for saying after 2-3 games things would turn to shit. Turns out everything I said was right. It’s been a shit show. I really do mean everything I said turned out to be true. None of these players have improved after the past 24 months
I challenge anyone to find any form of gameplay that the team has implemented this season. Any gameplay. It’s been an absolute shocker.
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@KiwiInLondon said in Highlanders 2025:
@frugby said in Highlanders 2025:
About a year ago we beat the Crusaders… for the rest of last year we made steady progress, we then recruited well, and started this season well.
We then steadily took steps backwards from after that Blues game, and now it feels like we are back where we started.
I’m not sure you can really blame the injuries. What was concerning about last night was it felt like the coaching staff panicked… they changed some of the things which were working, and unsurprisingly that didn’t go well.
JJ walked in and said he wanted Dermody’s job… has he been an upgrade? The way we are tracking we might get the spoon, and that will be so damaging to any long-term plans. I feel gutted.
So beating a 13 man Blues team off the back of a freak Hurley chip and chase was your basis for everything starting to go right?
Think you’ll find it was a 13 man Highlanders team who showed real grit on defence and energy on attack.
There has categorically been changes to our attack and defence as the season has gone on.
Seemingly it coincides with Tele’a being replaced by Umaga-Jensen… coincidentally our worst performances last year were largely without Tele’a.
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@frugby agreed. In the midfield Telea being replaced has been a major issue.
Funnily enough Gilbert being dropped from the backline has not helped. I think we need to acknowledge that while he may not be an amazing player - he is a good leader. The team needs those right now.
Then finally we need to settle on a halves pairing and build them. Based on what I'm seeing that's probably Hastie & Robinson. But there's not much in it. Fakatava breaks open games but his leadership seems to go missing in key moments. Millars being dominated physically at the moment and seems short of confidence. The fact that if you're not starting as a halve you're being dropped isn't helping. Robinson needs to be on the bench not the sidelines for the rest of the season. We can't afford to loose Hastie either at the moment. We've spent five years developing him - and seem content to throw that all down the tube for Adam Lennox.
Ma'au has taken major steps backwards this year and I'd be in favour of him being benched with Kauitau starting for now.
My starting xv (assuming Telea is back this week) would look something like this. I'm assuming Holland is out for his HIA.
- De Groot
- Vikenna
- Kakuitau
- Dunshea
- Stodart
- Haig
- Lasnga
- Withy
- Hastie
- Millar
- Nareki / Manson
- Timcoi T
- Telea
- Gilbert
- Kneepkins
- Taylor
- Bartlett
- Ma'au
- Howden
- Renton / Loft
- Fakatava
- Millar
- Umunga Jensen
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@handa457 in the simplest of terms use Width.. as we saw with our only tries last night the ball beats the man, looks like Hastie & Kneepkens are the only few that know this. if Vikena, Ma'u and our midfielders continue to go up the guts on repeat Savea and his teammates won't be phased in the slightest
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Well, I’ve got some positive news after a doom and gloom last couple of weeks.
Despite what someone was saying a few weeks back, I’ve been told by a reliable contact that Tangitau is in fact staying put with the Highlanders for the duration of his current contract. They also stated that going to the Highlanders has got him away from a crowd that wasn’t good for him.
Encouraging to hear and good for Caleb for getting out of his comfort zone in the first place. Here’s hoping he’s back on the field soon to continue to push for the Black jersey.
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@Landers92 said in Highlanders 2025:
Well, I’ve got some positive news after a doom and gloom last couple of weeks.
Despite what someone was saying a few weeks back, I’ve been told by a reliable contact that Tangitau in fact be staying put with the Highlanders for the duration of his current contract. They also stated that going to the Highlanders has got him away from a crowd that wasn’t good for him.
Encouraging to hear and good for Caleb for getting out of his comfort zone in the first place. Here’s hoping he’s back in the field soon to continues to push for the Black jersey.
Good to hear... any word on his groin?
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I'd like to see the Landers go back to what worked early on in the year. We need to play with speed, and tempo - go back to the 6-2 split. We have been desperately poor late in games, which probably speaks to a lack of depth. My team:
- de Groot
- Vikena
- Kautai
- Howden
- Dunshea
- Haig
- Lasaqa
- Withy
- Fakatava (Think he has actually been really good since coming back)
- Robinson
- Nareki
- Tavatavanawai
- Tele'a
- Tangitau
- Ratumaitavuki-Kneepkens
If Tele'a ain't fit, I have no clue what I'd do in the midfield, but TUJ at centre just does not seem to work. Maybe we could try swapping him and Jim around? If no Nareki/Tangitau, then I'd go Gilbert and Filimone.
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@KiwiInLondon said in Highlanders 2025:
@frugby said in Highlanders 2025:
About a year ago we beat the Crusaders… for the rest of last year we made steady progress, we then recruited well, and started this season well.
We then steadily took steps backwards from after that Blues game, and now it feels like we are back where we started.
I’m not sure you can really blame the injuries. What was concerning about last night was it felt like the coaching staff panicked… they changed some of the things which were working, and unsurprisingly that didn’t go well.
JJ walked in and said he wanted Dermody’s job… has he been an upgrade? The way we are tracking we might get the spoon, and that will be so damaging to any long-term plans. I feel gutted.
So beating a 13 man Blues team off the back of a freak Hurley chip and chase was your basis for everything starting to go right?
I got shat on for saying after 2-3 games things would turn to shit. Turns out everything I said was right. It’s been a shit show. I really do mean everything I said turned out to be true. None of these players have improved after the past 24 months
I challenge anyone to find any form of gameplay that the team has implemented this season. Any gameplay. It’s been an absolute shocker.
read it again....he said it went Backwards after the blues game...not the start of everything going right, a little too quick to jump in and try and point out "i was right"
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On reflection, I might have been a bit harsh. I'm not convinced selections have been great, and the original squad was partially flawed, but it is undeniable that there are serious gaps in this team.
Nevermind All Blacks, most of our guys don't even make the best 23 for the other franchises. de Groot, Holland, Fakatava, Tavatavanawai, JRK & Tangitau probably do, but that kind of speaks to the issues. We are just getting consistently butchered up front, and don't have a quality 10 to cover for it, so our best players don't see the ball.
The squad is young, but my big concern is that a lot of these guys are showing themselves to be young, rather than potential. A fit and firing Haig will make a difference eventually, but we have zero x-factor in the loose forwards.
On paper, as of right now, we have the fifth best squad in New Zealand, and you'd be hard pressed to argue we are better than the Waratahs, Reds or Brumbies. We have some better individuals than the Force, but they have an international quality first five who has won them a couple of games. You'd be hard pressed to argue we are any better than the 9th best team in this comp, and that is probably where we will finish if we beat Moana this weekend - as hard as it is to accept.
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@frugby said in Highlanders 2025:
On reflection, I might have been a bit harsh. I'm not convinced selections have been great, and the original squad was partially flawed, but it is undeniable that there are serious gaps in this team.
Nevermind All Blacks, most of our guys don't even make the best 23 for the other franchises. de Groot, Holland, Fakatava, Tavatavanawai, JRK & Tangitau probably do, but that kind of speaks to the issues. We are just getting consistently butchered up front, and don't have a quality 10 to cover for it, so our best players don't see the ball.
The squad is young, but my big concern is that a lot of these guys are showing themselves to be young, rather than potential. A fit and firing Haig will make a difference eventually, but we have zero x-factor in the loose forwards.
Some loose forwards that have x factor who might aspire for meaningful game time in Super are Che Clark & Malachi Wrampling but they themselves are young and inexperienced.. just tough isn't it. Decade ago you could recruit guys like Squire & Luke Whitelock who would be mid 20s with years of 1st class games under their belt.
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@frugby's point around would our guys make other teams is one I tend to look at. It somewhat reflects the bar of where we are at.
We have a few guys who would. Then some others who would be useful and easily switch in as cover.
Even a guy like Jim Tavatavanawai. While he is probably the best utility back going around. You'd be hard pressed to say he is a top five winger or 12.
When there are quality players in a squad, there is less risk when bringing in an inexperienced player in. There is a lot more guidance available. Bringing in a guy like Manson is a risk for us. Due to defensive issues. Whereas if he was apart of a stronger squad. There would more likely be All Blacks and experienced super players around him to give guidance. His mistakes would also be less visible.
The flow on from this is that we lose games, and end up selecting 'safer' players.
I'd much rather see guys give a go and us lose by 20. Than seeing safe players with limited attacking threats put in and we lose by the same amount.
Recruitment isn't a one sided equation. Players need to want come as much as we need them to come. As I've said before you have to tell a story as to why a player will have a good future at the franchise. It is a hard story to sell at the moment. Very few players to learn off. Team down the bottom of the table. Really good starting team opportunities though!
If you take an objective look at our recruitment over the last few years.
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we have probably prioritised local guys too much instead of pushing for the market
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We have let a couple of lads go with Semisi Tupou and Noah Hotham (with Hastie and Arscott perferred)
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there has been a clear youth focus. Probably lacked a few guys to hold the fort so to speak
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only a few proper recent recruitmebt balls ups. Naeata being the main one.
Above all it is a bad look for NZR having a team so far behind the other four primary NZ sides. It should be considering doing some guiding around leveling rhe playing field.
As I've mentioned before. Losing by 30 each week sucks. There is no quick fix when your guys are so far behind.
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@SouthernMann Yeah agree, although I don’t think you can blame the franchise over Hotham.
At the time we had Smith, and Fakatava looked like he would be the successor, the Crusaders had nobody… whilst the ORFU were straight braindead, I think the Landers would liked to have kept him but never stood a chance.
FWIW, I actually thought Fakatava outplayed him in the weekend.
