All Blacks 2025
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I can definitely see the upside of Ah Koui as a test 6, would love to see more of him there at Super level.
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@cgrant said in All Blacks 2025:
Summary for the future squad :
Hookers :
Codie Taylor is a certainty;
Taukei'aho as well;
Aumua : has not fully recovered from a nasty injury. LO throwing still a work on.
Moananu : he could be a bolter as he is the best LO thrower in the country and has a very good workmate. Small but strong.Loosehead props :
Tamaiti Williams : probably the best of the bunch. Strong scrummager, powerful in the loose, good hands. Defence not his strength.
Ethan de Groot : despite a poor SR rugby campaign (with the notable exception of the game against the Hurricanes), he should be in. Good scrummager but does not bring very much in the loose. Not many meters gained in regard to his impressive physique.
Olli Norris : he could be a bolter as his scrummaging is far better this year and he is the best ball carrier of them all. Good at shifting bodies in the rucks too.
George Bower : Solid servant with no weaknesses but without notable strength. He is a Crusader but his age could count against him.
Xavier Numia : he has not recovered from his long injury. Actually, he is a shadow of his former self. Not as dynamic as he used to be but scrums adequately. I don't see him join the squad.Tight head props :
Lomax : best THP in the country. He is a certainty.
Tosi : not his best season that's for sure but he is beginning to regain some form. Won a penalty but conceded one against EdG on Friday. Powerful in the loose. He should be Lomax's understudy.
Fletcher Newell : seems to carry more effectively this year. Still a strong scrummager. He should be the third THP within the squad;
George Dyer : very good workrate and good if not dominant scrummager. He could be a bolter but this would be a big surprise as far as I am concerned.Locks :
Scott Barrett : he is a certainty despite being rather anonymous this season. Will he retain his captaincy ?
Tupou Vai'i : best lock in the country ... by a country mile. Another certainty for the squad;
Patrick Tuipolutu : not a great SR season for him, hampered by a few niggles. His experience should prevail for a place in the squad.
Holland : he has not progressed as quickly as I expected but maybe it is because he is playing in a very collectively weak team. Very effective in disrupting opposition's throws at the LO, solid work in the rucks and mauls. His weakness is his lack of power in his ball carrying IMO; I think he will be selected thanks to Darry's injury.
Josh Lord : he is made of glass, despite having added a few Kgs to his frame. He is a contender but I don't see him get the nod.
Ah Kuoi : he is having a great SR season. Excellent workrate, uncompromising attitude. He may be a bit too light for an international lock.
Sam Darry : he could have been the squad's fourth lock but his injury will probably keep him out. He has all the qualities to become a world class lock IMO.
Walker-Leawere : his indiscipline should keep him out of contention. It's a shame because his power could be useful against the SA or French packs.
Antonio Shalfoon : he is the Crusaders best lock this year. I thought he was a journeyman but he did far better than I expected. He is a Crusader so he is a possibility for the squad.Loose forwards :
Ardie Savea : a certainty. Will he become the team's captain ? He probably deserves it.
Wallace Sititi : another certainty despite his recent recovery from injury. He and Savea are both outstanding ball carriers.
Hoskins Sotutu : in terms of technique, he is probably the best Nr.8 in NZ. His lack of versatility might count against him.
Peter Lakai : he was outstanding against France last year and has played better and better after a slow start in the SR. A good player to have on the bench. He should be in.
Dalton Papali'i : very sound player who lacks the X-factor one could expect from such a gifted man. He could be in but he could also but out of the squad. Who knows ?
Jacobson : solid but not brillant. Anonymous in his outings with the ABs but very good with the Chiefs. He and Papali'i are the same type of players.
Finau : the big mystery. Physically imposing but does not impose himself at the upper level. If he plays to his potential, he could be a world beater. I think he will be in because of the lack of other valuable options.
Cullen Grace : solid, excellent at the lineout but physically a bit light for an international blindside flanker.
Ethan Blackadder : great workrate but does not have the expected impact, maybe because of his automatic injuries. One of Robertson's favorites so he might be in.
Du Plessis Kirifi : excellent at the breakdown but his lack of versatility might count against him. If Tavatavanawai is selected, then Kirifi could not be needed as they both play the same "jackaling" role.
Christian Lio-Willie : strong ball carrier but physically too limited for an international Nr.8 IMO. Plays for the Crusaders, though.Halfbacks :
Cam Roigard : not his best season so far. Good passing, good kicking, but many unusual mistakes in this SR season. However, he is a certainty for the squad.
Cortez Ratima : not his best season as he has been seriously challenged by Roe. He should be in the squad though. I'd like the idea of having two distinct combos : Roigard/Love and Ratima/DMac in the 23.
Finlay Christie : I don't think he will make the squad because he has been rather meh so far.
Noah Hotham : he could be in though he is not the finished article yet. Snipes well but his passing is too slow.
Fakatava : snipes well too but his passing lets him down at times. Tends to make silly errors but he can be brillant.
Funaki : solid but does not play for the good team and is not yet the finished article.
Preston : plays for the Saders. Sharp pass but weak in defence. I don't think he will make it.1st Five :
DMac : probably the best in the country. The Chiefs are a different team when he is not their playmaker.
Beauden Barrett : I guess he will be selected but more on his reputation than on his recent performances. Questionable goal and tactical kicking. However, he is still capable of showing glimpses of his former brillance.
Ruben Love : like the two above, he can play fullback and 1st Five. Brillant player with a thousand qualities. Questions about his game management as a 1st Five.2nd Five :
Jordie Barrett : he is a certainty. 2nd Five is probably his best position.
David Havili : one of Robertson's favorites but has not done a lot at the upper level. Will he get selected while there are other younger options ?
Quinn Tupaea : solid and uncompromising but still has to prove his worth on the international scene. If Havili is in, then he would be out of the squad.
Riley Higgins : good passer and offloader but his defence is still a work on. I have doubts about his chances to get picked.
Tavatavanawai : he is a type of player the ABs never had in their ranks. He could bring something different. He is a constant menace at the breakdown and could be useful in a tight game where the ABs have to defend their line. He could be a bolter for the selection.Centres :
Rieko Ioane : not a good year for him so far. He should be in, though, thanks to his anteriority and lack of experienced alternatives.
Billy Proctor : the best passing centre in NZ. He knows how to put a player into space. Good in defence, too. It would be a very bad surprise if he is not selected.
Tanielu Tele'a : strongest ball carrying centre in NZ. I don't know much about his defensive qualities. His versatility could make him a bolter for the squad.Back three :
Will Jordan : he is a certainty, probably as a fullback but with three potential fullbacks (DMac, BB and Love), he could be pushed to the right wing.
Caleb Clarke : Not a good season for him but he has plenty of qualities (speed, strength and safety under the high balls) which will probably take him into the squad.
Sevu Reece : great workrate but his lack of speed against the likes of Bielle Biarrey and Kolbe could be a major deficiency. I really don't know whether he will be selected or not.
Mark Tele'a : he certainly knows how the slip through tackles but his lack of speed and the fact that he is heading overseas might count against him.
Emoni Narawa : no known weaknesses. Has been very good so far for the Chiefs.
AJ Lam : can play wing, 2nd Five and centre. Quick and powerful, he has already been in the AB squad and could well retain his place.
Leroy Carter : has entered the conversation lately. His defensive frailties and inexperience at the highest level could count against him.
Caleb Tangitau : a shame that he has been injured as he was the form winger before. His sheer speed is something the ABs did not have in their squad last year. He is not yet the finished article but I'd like to see him taken at least as an apprentice.
Shaun Stevenson : he has been very good for the Chiefs this year. Brillant in attack and big boot. Has not shown the defensive lapses he used to show the years before. Unfortunately he is leaving so he won't get picked.
Bailyn Sullivan : he has been great for the Hurricanes. Excellent tackler and opportunist try scorer. Despite these positive accomplishments, it would be a big surprise to see him getting selected.Well thought through and comprehensive summary.
I think Tosi is in the equation at TH.
Is the comment about Numia’s calf injury an observation or based on some published info? -
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@Frank said in All Blacks 2025:
Ah Kuoi has a good workrate and size for a 6.
This could be his best position at int. level.
is he quick enough?Can't see him being any slower than Kaino, Grace, Blackadder, Finau, etc. Plus Vaai, Savea, Sititi are no slouches.
Kaino was in 100m final at St. Kent’s, but had to yield to Joe Rocks.
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@pakman said in All Blacks 2025:
@cgrant said in All Blacks 2025:
Summary for the future squad :
Hookers :
Codie Taylor is a certainty;
Taukei'aho as well;
Aumua : has not fully recovered from a nasty injury. LO throwing still a work on.
Moananu : he could be a bolter as he is the best LO thrower in the country and has a very good workmate. Small but strong.Loosehead props :
Tamaiti Williams : probably the best of the bunch. Strong scrummager, powerful in the loose, good hands. Defence not his strength.
Ethan de Groot : despite a poor SR rugby campaign (with the notable exception of the game against the Hurricanes), he should be in. Good scrummager but does not bring very much in the loose. Not many meters gained in regard to his impressive physique.
Olli Norris : he could be a bolter as his scrummaging is far better this year and he is the best ball carrier of them all. Good at shifting bodies in the rucks too.
George Bower : Solid servant with no weaknesses but without notable strength. He is a Crusader but his age could count against him.
Xavier Numia : he has not recovered from his long injury. Actually, he is a shadow of his former self. Not as dynamic as he used to be but scrums adequately. I don't see him join the squad.Tight head props :
Lomax : best THP in the country. He is a certainty.
Tosi : not his best season that's for sure but he is beginning to regain some form. Won a penalty but conceded one against EdG on Friday. Powerful in the loose. He should be Lomax's understudy.
Fletcher Newell : seems to carry more effectively this year. Still a strong scrummager. He should be the third THP within the squad;
George Dyer : very good workrate and good if not dominant scrummager. He could be a bolter but this would be a big surprise as far as I am concerned.Locks :
Scott Barrett : he is a certainty despite being rather anonymous this season. Will he retain his captaincy ?
Tupou Vai'i : best lock in the country ... by a country mile. Another certainty for the squad;
Patrick Tuipolutu : not a great SR season for him, hampered by a few niggles. His experience should prevail for a place in the squad.
Holland : he has not progressed as quickly as I expected but maybe it is because he is playing in a very collectively weak team. Very effective in disrupting opposition's throws at the LO, solid work in the rucks and mauls. His weakness is his lack of power in his ball carrying IMO; I think he will be selected thanks to Darry's injury.
Josh Lord : he is made of glass, despite having added a few Kgs to his frame. He is a contender but I don't see him get the nod.
Ah Kuoi : he is having a great SR season. Excellent workrate, uncompromising attitude. He may be a bit too light for an international lock.
Sam Darry : he could have been the squad's fourth lock but his injury will probably keep him out. He has all the qualities to become a world class lock IMO.
Walker-Leawere : his indiscipline should keep him out of contention. It's a shame because his power could be useful against the SA or French packs.
Antonio Shalfoon : he is the Crusaders best lock this year. I thought he was a journeyman but he did far better than I expected. He is a Crusader so he is a possibility for the squad.Loose forwards :
Ardie Savea : a certainty. Will he become the team's captain ? He probably deserves it.
Wallace Sititi : another certainty despite his recent recovery from injury. He and Savea are both outstanding ball carriers.
Hoskins Sotutu : in terms of technique, he is probably the best Nr.8 in NZ. His lack of versatility might count against him.
Peter Lakai : he was outstanding against France last year and has played better and better after a slow start in the SR. A good player to have on the bench. He should be in.
Dalton Papali'i : very sound player who lacks the X-factor one could expect from such a gifted man. He could be in but he could also but out of the squad. Who knows ?
Jacobson : solid but not brillant. Anonymous in his outings with the ABs but very good with the Chiefs. He and Papali'i are the same type of players.
Finau : the big mystery. Physically imposing but does not impose himself at the upper level. If he plays to his potential, he could be a world beater. I think he will be in because of the lack of other valuable options.
Cullen Grace : solid, excellent at the lineout but physically a bit light for an international blindside flanker.
Ethan Blackadder : great workrate but does not have the expected impact, maybe because of his automatic injuries. One of Robertson's favorites so he might be in.
Du Plessis Kirifi : excellent at the breakdown but his lack of versatility might count against him. If Tavatavanawai is selected, then Kirifi could not be needed as they both play the same "jackaling" role.
Christian Lio-Willie : strong ball carrier but physically too limited for an international Nr.8 IMO. Plays for the Crusaders, though.Halfbacks :
Cam Roigard : not his best season so far. Good passing, good kicking, but many unusual mistakes in this SR season. However, he is a certainty for the squad.
Cortez Ratima : not his best season as he has been seriously challenged by Roe. He should be in the squad though. I'd like the idea of having two distinct combos : Roigard/Love and Ratima/DMac in the 23.
Finlay Christie : I don't think he will make the squad because he has been rather meh so far.
Noah Hotham : he could be in though he is not the finished article yet. Snipes well but his passing is too slow.
Fakatava : snipes well too but his passing lets him down at times. Tends to make silly errors but he can be brillant.
Funaki : solid but does not play for the good team and is not yet the finished article.
Preston : plays for the Saders. Sharp pass but weak in defence. I don't think he will make it.1st Five :
DMac : probably the best in the country. The Chiefs are a different team when he is not their playmaker.
Beauden Barrett : I guess he will be selected but more on his reputation than on his recent performances. Questionable goal and tactical kicking. However, he is still capable of showing glimpses of his former brillance.
Ruben Love : like the two above, he can play fullback and 1st Five. Brillant player with a thousand qualities. Questions about his game management as a 1st Five.2nd Five :
Jordie Barrett : he is a certainty. 2nd Five is probably his best position.
David Havili : one of Robertson's favorites but has not done a lot at the upper level. Will he get selected while there are other younger options ?
Quinn Tupaea : solid and uncompromising but still has to prove his worth on the international scene. If Havili is in, then he would be out of the squad.
Riley Higgins : good passer and offloader but his defence is still a work on. I have doubts about his chances to get picked.
Tavatavanawai : he is a type of player the ABs never had in their ranks. He could bring something different. He is a constant menace at the breakdown and could be useful in a tight game where the ABs have to defend their line. He could be a bolter for the selection.Centres :
Rieko Ioane : not a good year for him so far. He should be in, though, thanks to his anteriority and lack of experienced alternatives.
Billy Proctor : the best passing centre in NZ. He knows how to put a player into space. Good in defence, too. It would be a very bad surprise if he is not selected.
Tanielu Tele'a : strongest ball carrying centre in NZ. I don't know much about his defensive qualities. His versatility could make him a bolter for the squad.Back three :
Will Jordan : he is a certainty, probably as a fullback but with three potential fullbacks (DMac, BB and Love), he could be pushed to the right wing.
Caleb Clarke : Not a good season for him but he has plenty of qualities (speed, strength and safety under the high balls) which will probably take him into the squad.
Sevu Reece : great workrate but his lack of speed against the likes of Bielle Biarrey and Kolbe could be a major deficiency. I really don't know whether he will be selected or not.
Mark Tele'a : he certainly knows how the slip through tackles but his lack of speed and the fact that he is heading overseas might count against him.
Emoni Narawa : no known weaknesses. Has been very good so far for the Chiefs.
AJ Lam : can play wing, 2nd Five and centre. Quick and powerful, he has already been in the AB squad and could well retain his place.
Leroy Carter : has entered the conversation lately. His defensive frailties and inexperience at the highest level could count against him.
Caleb Tangitau : a shame that he has been injured as he was the form winger before. His sheer speed is something the ABs did not have in their squad last year. He is not yet the finished article but I'd like to see him taken at least as an apprentice.
Shaun Stevenson : he has been very good for the Chiefs this year. Brillant in attack and big boot. Has not shown the defensive lapses he used to show the years before. Unfortunately he is leaving so he won't get picked.
Bailyn Sullivan : he has been great for the Hurricanes. Excellent tackler and opportunist try scorer. Despite these positive accomplishments, it would be a big surprise to see him getting selected.Well thought through and comprehensive summary.
I think Tosi is in the equation at TH.
Is the comment about Numia’s calf injury an observation or based on some published info?I don't think there is any issue with Numia, he just isn't playing as well as last year unfortunately. He has every opportunity to push his claim for the remainder of the Canes season (however long that is).
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@KiwiMurph said in Moana Pasifika v Blues:
@booboo said in Moana Pasifika v Blues:
Who on earth has thought that "Ardie is not All Black level" in the last nine years?
Plenty suggested he didn't play that well last year. And they were right.
Definition of a straw man argument
and it drives particular balance requirements in the other two loosies.
The issue was not with Ardie, it was Ardie + Sam Cane left an awful lot for the 6 to do ... you needed peak Kaino to try to balance it up.
Our loose forwards have not been super impressive over the last few years
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:
McMillan talked about using Ah Kuoi at 6 a few years back but it hasn't happened. The same for BOP last year due to injuries to their locks. He is certainly mobile enough.
He did start one game at 6 last year, against the Crusaders in Christchurch. Can't remember whether he played well or not.
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You'd have to assume that Savea (based on this year) and Sititi (based on last year) are inked in to start. So the question is who complements them best / covers their weaknesses.
Neither is an A-grade international lineout target, though Sititi is pretty good. Finau, Sotutu, Ah Kuoi the best we have I reckon. EB and DP not as good.
Savea does not clean many attacking rucks. Our best at this are EB and DP. Ah Kuoi is not bad. Finau and HS less so.
Both are good open field runners in wide channels, and less effective in close.. Sotutu, Finau the best here by some distance. EB, DP, Ah Kuoi not so much.
So for me, three paths forward (and it could even be horses for courses):- you pick some tight forwards to maximise the ruck work (Taylor, Barrett, Newell, maybe an Ah Kuoi or Holland for the bench over Tuipolotou), and use the remaining loosie spot to get lineout and close-in power (Sotutu/Finau).
- you pick tight forwards to provide grunt running (Samisoni, Tuipolotou, Tosi) and rely on your locks and tactics for your lineout, and the remaining loosie spot goes to a ruck-hitter: EB or DP..
- you prioritise the linout and give the loosie spot to Ah Kuoi., with a balance of ruck work and close in power running required from the tighties.
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a lot or people picking a lot of absolute midget loose forward squads.
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Devan Flanders could be in the conversation by the end of Super. Hopefully he comes back from his long-term injury with the same form he showed in 2024. He's the reason Howden went down to the Landers, he has the size for a test 6, and has the mobility, skillset and speed required at the next level. Would like to see more physicality in his game though, hopefully he can show that when he comes back.
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@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
I asked Chat GTP who played 6 for the All Blacks, apart from Wallace Sititi, in 2024. I would thought the same individuals and Cullen Grace are the likely suspect this year. Peter Lakai will cover 7 and 8 behind Ardie Savea and Walllace Sititi.
I'd be inclined to also ask it who mainly played 6 in 2023, when his contract in Japan finishes and whether the AB coaches like him.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
a lot or people picking a lot of absolute midget loose forward squads.
Based on last year, the selectors didn't seem to think size was absolutely crucial.
Ardie was a fixture at 8 and then they largely picked big sevens and small sixes - almost more left and right flankers than traditional openside/blindside. Finau the obvious exception.
As I recall, Razor even pretty much said at one point that they see loose forwards as pretty much interchangeable.
This might have been making a virtue out of a necessity.
But, it's what makes picking the loose forwards very murky - because we don't really know how Razor plans to deploy them. Will Ardie be 7 or 8? Will Sititi be 6 or 8?
The Super coaches have got into this spirit by picking lots of the contenders in positions different to where they're likely to play for the ABs - or at least where they mainly played last year.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
a lot or people picking a lot of absolute midget loose forward squads.
Based on last year, the selectors didn't seem to think size was absolutely crucial.
Ardie was a fixture at 8 and then they largely picked big sevens and small sixes - almost more left and right flankers than traditional openside/blindside. Finau the obvious exception.
As I recall, Razor even pretty much said at one point that they see loose forwards as pretty much interchangeable.
This might have been making a virtue out of a necessity.
But, it's what makes picking the loose forwards very murky - because we don't really know how Razor plans to deploy them. Will Ardie be 7 or 8? Will Sititi be 6 or 8?
The Super coaches have got into this spirit by picking lots of the contenders in positions different to where they're likely to play for the ABs - or at least where they mainly played last year.
Size becomes less of an issue with the go forward that Savea and Sititi provide.
Contrast that to Blackadder, Papalii and Jacobsen who have the same impact as a fly on a windshield in comparison.
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Screw versatility I say, for me that’s half the All Blacks problem picking guys who can play multiple positions as opposed to picking a specialist
You end up with tradesman like fillers on the bench -
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
Devan Flanders could be in the conversation by the end of Super. Hopefully he comes back from his long-term injury with the same form he showed in 2024. He's the reason Howden went down to the Landers, he has the size for a test 6, and has the mobility, skillset and speed required at the next level. Would like to see more physicality in his game though, hopefully he can show that when he comes back.
He's having a decent shot at the Blackadder route to AB selection. But, he may lack a red stripe on his jersey for to be completely successful.
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@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
Screw versatility I say, for me that’s half the All Blacks problem picking guys who can play multiple positions as opposed to picking a specialist
You end up with tradesman like fillers on the benchYou end up with with some of those guys in the starting XV.
Aside from the the hookers and halfbacks (and maybe the props), pretty much everyone else in our top XV will have played at least two postions for the ABs.
A bit of versatility is good, but we take it to extremes!
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i find NZ rugby to be hyper insular and conservative.
We're overly focused on reducing risk over exploiting opportunity (see nearly every player chat being focused on errors rather than anything else), and we select everywhere as cover for disaster rather than a chance to add a positive.
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@Chris-B there’s some players that have made All Blacks squads in the last several years because of versatility as opposed to really impacting from the bench or pushing for a permanent starting place and you can guarantee they will in this squad when ABs team gets named again .
For me if we are naming 2 number 7s then it’s Ardie and based on form then it’s DPK the best 2 players , not a Jacobson or Blackadder because they can cover 7 -
It should be remembered that the guy dropping out of the loose forward trio is Sam Cane - who, for all his criticisms hits as hard as anyone in the tackle, and did the dirty work. Ardie played at 7 will somewhat fill that void, but I still think they will be looking for a grafter - preferably with some meat on them. Could easily be Lakai at 8...
