All Blacks 2025
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
Cane and Frizell bottled it and Savea ended up doing the work of two loose forwards.
Whatever can be said of Sam Cane as an All Black, the idea of him bottling it is def. not one of them.
He's the first player to be red carded in an RWC final because he failed to keep his discipline.
Big arrow you've drawn there between lack of bottle and getting a (dubious IMHO) red card.
Bottling it means failing to do something and he failed to keep his tackles down with a lazy high shot. He failed to keep his discipline in a high pressure game. Whether or not the red is dubious is irrelevant. It was a high shot and he created that moment which forced an official to deliberate.
If he had kept his tackle down there would be nothing for the officials to judge.
Your contention has merit when looked at in isolation, but not when Kolisi gets away with a worse transgression in the very same game.
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
Cane and Frizell bottled it and Savea ended up doing the work of two loose forwards.
Whatever can be said of Sam Cane as an All Black, the idea of him bottling it is def. not one of them.
He's the first player to be red carded in an RWC final because he failed to keep his discipline.
Big arrow you've drawn there between lack of bottle and getting a (dubious IMHO) red card.
Bottling it means failing to do something and he failed to keep his tackles down with a lazy high shot. He failed to keep his discipline in a high pressure game. Whether or not the red is dubious is irrelevant. It was a high shot and he created that moment which forced an official to deliberate.
If he had kept his tackle down there would be nothing for the officials to judge.
Your contention has merit when looked at in isolation, but not when Kolisi gets away with a worse transgression in the very same game.
That's also irrelevant.
All Cane had to do was keep his tackle low and we wouldn't be having this debate. Again, Cane opened the door to let a flakey NH official decide his fate. No one else during the game. Cane.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
That's also irrelevant.
Well, it is and it isn't. Get your point. But what is relevant is that Cane and Kolisi were judged by different standards.
And Ta'avao and Porter in the Irish series etc etc.
Cane's name is getting dragged through the dirt here, and if he had of gotten a fair shake in the RWC final we may well be looking at photos of him lifting the trophy.
He (we) were hatcheted by officialdom.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
That's also irrelevant.
Well, it is and it isn't. Get your point. But what is relevant is that Cane and Kolisi were judged by different standards.
I thought they were both reds but sh*t happens. The fact that Kolisi didn't get a red was unlucky for our team and lucky for theirs.
Every player that tackles high invites the possibility for a red. The players know this.
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
That's also irrelevant.
Well, it is and it isn't. Get your point. But what is relevant is that Cane and Kolisi were judged by different standards.
And Ta'avao and Porter in the Irish series etc etc.
Cane's name is getting dragged through the dirt here, and if he had of gotten a fair shake in the RWC final we may well be looking at photos of him lifting the trophy.
He (we) were hatcheted by officialdom.
Forget the whataboutism.
Fact 1: Cane high tackled Kriel.
Fact 2: Officials have a framework for deliberating on cards but there is a degree of subjectivity.You open yourself up to cards when you high tackle someone.
This is overly dramatic about Cane's name being 'dragged through the dirt'. No ones saying he's a bad person. It's a game where he failed to stick to the rules. When players do that its commonly referred to as ill discipline.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
That's also irrelevant.
Well, it is and it isn't. Get your point. But what is relevant is that Cane and Kolisi were judged by different standards.
And Ta'avao and Porter in the Irish series etc etc.
Cane's name is getting dragged through the dirt here, and if he had of gotten a fair shake in the RWC final we may well be looking at photos of him lifting the trophy.
He (we) were hatcheted by officialdom.
Forget the whataboutism.
Fact 1: Cane high tackled Kriel.
Fact 2: Officials have a framework for deliberating on cards but there is a degree of subjectivity.You open yourself up to cards when you to cards when you high tackle someone.
This is overly dramatic about Cane's name being 'dragged through the dirt'. No ones saying he's a bad person. It's a game where he failed to stick to the rules. When players do that it's commonly referred to as ill discipline.
Etzebeth forearm smashed Cane in the face with a carry.
Frizzell was fouled before his slip onto the hookers knee (for a sanction I havnt seen pinged before or since).
Cane gets his red.
Kolisi gets 10 minutes.You are dealing in absolutes, when the game was reffed in anything but.
Essentially your contention and my contention are both correct concurrently.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
Cane and Frizell bottled it and Savea ended up doing the work of two loose forwards.
Whatever can be said of Sam Cane as an All Black, the idea of him bottling it is def. not one of them.
He's the first player to be red carded in an RWC final because he failed to keep his discipline.
Big arrow you've drawn there between lack of bottle and getting a (dubious IMHO) red card.
Bottling it means failing to do something and he failed to keep his tackles down with a lazy high shot. He failed to keep his discipline in a high pressure game. Whether or not the red is dubious is irrelevant. It was a high shot and he created that moment which forced an official to deliberate.
If he had kept his tackle down there would be nothing for the officials to judge.
Your contention has merit when looked at in isolation, but not when Kolisi gets away with a worse transgression in the very same game.
That's also irrelevant.
All Cane had to do was keep his tackle low and we wouldn't be having this debate. Again, Cane opened the door to let a flakey NH official decide his fate. No one else during the game. Cane.
But that's the exact issue. It's impossible for any dominant tackling loosie to keep 100% of their tackles low, mistakes happen.
"All" Cane had to do is something nobody else does. For example, Kolisi in the same game - so now Kolisi is lauded by all and sundry, while you are vilifying Cane - when they did the exact same damn thing, and the only thing that really causes that polar difference is the ref's inconsistent interpretation. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
Cane and Frizell bottled it and Savea ended up doing the work of two loose forwards.
Whatever can be said of Sam Cane as an All Black, the idea of him bottling it is def. not one of them.
He's the first player to be red carded in an RWC final because he failed to keep his discipline.
Big arrow you've drawn there between lack of bottle and getting a (dubious IMHO) red card.
Bottling it means failing to do something and he failed to keep his tackles down with a lazy high shot. He failed to keep his discipline in a high pressure game. Whether or not the red is dubious is irrelevant. It was a high shot and he created that moment which forced an official to deliberate.
If he had kept his tackle down there would be nothing for the officials to judge.
Your contention has merit when looked at in isolation, but not when Kolisi gets away with a worse transgression in the very same game.
That's also irrelevant.
All Cane had to do was keep his tackle low and we wouldn't be having this debate. Again, Cane opened the door to let a flakey NH official decide his fate. No one else during the game. Cane.
But that's the exact issue. It's impossible for any dominant tackling loosie to keep 100% of their tackles low, mistakes happen.
"All" Cane had to do is something nobody else does. For example, Kolisi in the same game - so now Kolisi is lauded by all and sundry, while you are vilifying Cane - when they did the exact same damn thing, and the only thing that really causes that polar difference is the ref's inconsistent interpretation.Heroes and Villains decided by a roulette wheel spin.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
Cane and Frizell bottled it and Savea ended up doing the work of two loose forwards.
Whatever can be said of Sam Cane as an All Black, the idea of him bottling it is def. not one of them.
He's the first player to be red carded in an RWC final because he failed to keep his discipline.
Big arrow you've drawn there between lack of bottle and getting a (dubious IMHO) red card.
Bottling it means failing to do something and he failed to keep his tackles down with a lazy high shot. He failed to keep his discipline in a high pressure game. Whether or not the red is dubious is irrelevant. It was a high shot and he created that moment which forced an official to deliberate.
If he had kept his tackle down there would be nothing for the officials to judge.
Your contention has merit when looked at in isolation, but not when Kolisi gets away with a worse transgression in the very same game.
That's also irrelevant.
All Cane had to do was keep his tackle low and we wouldn't be having this debate. Again, Cane opened the door to let a flakey NH official decide his fate. No one else during the game. Cane.
But that's the exact issue. It's impossible for any dominant tackling loosie to keep 100% of their tackles low, mistakes happen.
"All" Cane had to do is something nobody else does. For example, Kolisi in the same game - so now Kolisi is lauded by all and sundry, while you are vilifying Cane - when they did the exact same damn thing, and the only thing that really causes that polar difference is the ref's inconsistent interpretation.Dude. I'm not vilifying him. I'm simply saying he failed to keep his discipline in an RWC final when the pressure was on. There is nothing abusive in my comments towards him.
He doesn't get a pass for his performance because officials have varied responses to high tackles. It was a high tackle. His performance was poor.
Psdt made 28 tackles in that final and none of them were high despite him being 15cm taller than Cane.
Great performance from Ardie. Poor from Cane and Frizell.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Yeah I would say Cane, Savea and Frizell showed their true colours as players when the going got tough in their most critical game. Cane and Frizell bottled it and Savea ended up doing the work of two loose forwards.
lol look at your walking back hard from this here hottest of hot takes.
Your words dude. Sam Cane's true colours were a big game bottler. 104 tests as a complete warrior for the ABs. 7 days after one of the best loose forward displays you'll see in Black. Ignore all that, really that's not his true colours.
It's a shit take.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph being at the game last night and watching from a very elevated position Sotutu Always attracts a lot of defenders
Has a great ability to throw a a late pass before contact or just take contact and get gainlineI watched both the 2 number 8s closely last night Gleeson got through a ton of work with many carries without getting gainline
Looked busy but far less impactful
Hoskins showed some great touches last night
Stats imo dont always tell a full story but i would be curious to compare both as reference pointSotutu has had a great 2nd half of the season after a stop start 1st half of it (mainly due to suspension).
Obviously he's not in the frame, but despite the critics from Chch death riding him at every opportunity, he's shown his class for us in what's been a mediocre season for us.
So much of the Blues attack went through him last year. He was so good at distributing, carrying and had good footwork. Not valued by these selectors, but if you want to have some threats in close then he's your man.
Suspect he'll pick up an English contract shortly - if his heart is in it
You don’t think Ardie provides those skills? Plus he’s the most likely to play 80
Ardies distribution isn't really the same. He has a good short passing game granted.
What they both have, and what is still somewhat unusual for loosies, is genuine vision for space. It's often hoskins who you'll see throw wide passes or flick turnover ball out quick to where it needs to be. Just another thing which doesnt readily show up in stats.
Our point of difference used to be forwards with fitness who could run and pass, but everyone does that now (or for fitness doesnt need to because of the bench these days).
Teams where everyone understands space, and makes good fast decisions about where the ball needs to be might be our way forward.Maybe. But when it comes to winning RWC it usually ends up being a slug fest. For example Jesse Kriel made zero passes in the last RWC final.
2015 and 87 were anomalies.
We had those periods where we would dominate in between RWC with players who understand space but when it came to the street fight in the RWC we fell short.
I see your point, and you can't expect to play a 90s style Crusaders team at international level with success. yet in our last rwc final, savea was pretty good, and frizzell the big strong guy was crap. Recognising space doesn't mean playing wide and loose, you can manipulate space close to rucks too, and hoskins is good at that; so too sititi and savea. Not so much DP, EB, LJ.
Yeah I would say Cane, Savea and Frizell showed their true colours as players when the going got tough in their most critical game. Cane and Frizell bottled it and Savea ended up doing the work of two loose forwards.
lol look at your walking back hard from this here hottest of hot takes.
Your words dude. Sam Cane's true colours were a big game bottler. 104 tests as a complete warrior for the ABs. 7 days after one of the best loose forward displays you'll see in Black. Ignore all that, really that's not his true colours.
It's a shit take.
He did bottle it.
That's not vilifying or dragging his name through the dirt.
He failed to perform anywhere close to his best potential because he got himself ejected from the game through poor discipline.
He got carded in the previous game against the Boks in London too because again he failed to maintain his discipline under pressure.
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you do you champ.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
Psdt made 28 tackles in that final and none of them were high despite him being 15cm taller than Cane.
And Kolisi didn't manage to get through the game without a high tackle, and didn't receive the same punishment for his tackle.
Cane made one less tackle than the great performing Ardie in that match.
No one is saying that he shouldn't have tackled lower, but ignoring (because you have a hill you want to die on) that he was unfairly treated in the context of other infractions in that game is reductive.
