Consumer Garantees act
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Obviously not a water pump but this guy went through the disputes tribunal regarding his PS3 crapping out. It may be worth mentioning the CGA first to the place you bought the pump off and seeing what they have to say. Wouldn't hurt to google and ring suppliers of water pumps to see if you can get an idea of life expectancy.
I've used the CGA twice before to get my PS3 (broke after 4 years) and a Samsung TV (3 years). Both times I was told it's out of warranty and there was nothing they could do. Mentioned the CGA and both places (EB Games and Bond & Bond) were then more than happy to help me out.
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THe people that we bought it off, or who installed it when house was built, while sympathetic to us, claim thier hands are tied due to no longer using this supplier and thier stance on issues (they have had previously) with the pump.
I've had plenty of DT experience, be interesting to take them to that haha
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The retailer is also bound by the CGA (the legal term in the CGA is "supplier" - the manufacturer is referred to as the "manufacturer") and can't opt out by blaming the manufacturer, so that could be an angle to try. The "consumer" (you) gets to choose whether it is a refund or replacement.
Refunds must be cash - store credit or other goods is not acceptable, so can't be forced on you, although obviously you could take their cash and then buy something else off them immediately if you wanted to, so not worth arguing over if you are going to immediately buy a replacement from them.
In terms of the actual standard of the water pump and quoting from the CGA, goods must be of "acceptable quality", one facet of which is "durable". The standard is "as a reasonable consumer fully acquainted with the state and condition of the goods, including any hidden defects, would regard as acceptable." That will vary from item to item, but I'd have thought a water pump would have a reasonably lengthy expected lifespan given its role in keeping a household properly stocked with one of the necessities of life.
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I reckon most businesses will start from the position that the consumer is not overly familiar with the CGA, if at all. Of course they will try and shift blame, or say their hands are tied, they are just trying to avoid a bit of hassle.
Don't let them. I'd be reading up on the CGA, then going back to the retailer and having a chat. If mentioning it doesn't spur them to action, start citing parts of it. If they realise you know your rights, their responsibilities, and the possible penalties for non-compliance with NZ law, I'd say they will probably magically be more helpful.
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Yeah I had a look at CGA online and the onus is usually on the retailer first, although there isnt a mention here about the expectation of something lasting a reasonable time...
https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/consumer-guarantees-act
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@taniwharugby said in Consumer Garantees act:
Yeah I had a look at CGA online and the onus is usually on the retailer first, although there isnt a mention here about the expectation of something lasting a reasonable time...
https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/consumer-guarantees-act
It comes under "durable" - there are a number of Disputes Tribunal decisions along those lines.
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@Godder has pretty much nailed it. Realistically speaking if you've got a difficult manufacturer and a retailer / installer who' s ducking for cover you're going to end up having to decide whether to take it to the Disputes Tribunal. Your chances there will be much better if you can demonstrate that you've tried to resolve it through direct negotiation. Document everything and if you can establish a consensus as to what the expected durability of a pump is that may be helpful to a Tribunal.
Don't assume that if you win you'll ever see any money, you may have to work hard afterwards just to enforce the debt sadly.
Call your Citizens Advice Bureau, this is their bread and butter.
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Ignoring all the theory for a moment I think you may find that unless you can find a plumber that will say he would expect not to have to attend to pump to fix it after 2 years (the warranty period) you will have to suck it up.
I have a mate who is a plumber up your way and could guarantee that he could not truthfully say (or produce records) that apart from certain models of certain pump brands he would not expect to have to make repairs after 2 years (if not before then). It is probably his biggest earner and out the back of his workshop is a big pile of fucked water pumps.
Even for his own tanks he is better off replacing and repairing rather than trying to think he can put a certain pump in, follow the recommended maintenance and otherwise expect it to go like a Hilux. Water pumps are a bitch of a product. They get absolutely hammered especially when you have kids turning taps on and off all the time.
The maintenance thing is also a possible problem for any claim. Unless you can prove you followed the manufacturers recommended schedule you won't have a leg to stand on (unless it is regarded as totally unreasonable) -
@Crucial I have a mate that works in a company that installs irrigation systems and sells pumps, he has told me categorically this is a poor pump and has offered a few alternatives which come with 4 year warrantee as standard. I have no doubt he would put something in writing for me.
@JC I guess something in my favour with regard to if I end up down the DT route, is I have a loan pump still in my tank, so if they were to trespass to collect it, they would also need to put my old one back, which still actually works, or did when they took it, but apparently is beggared...so if I still had it I would still have that as leverage if I had a DT ruling in my favour.
I've attended plenty of DTs and know that jus cos you win, doesn't mean you get the money
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@taniwharugby said in Consumer Garantees act:
@Crucial I have a mate that works in a company that installs irrigation systems and sells pumps, he has told me categorically this is a poor pump and has offered a few alternatives which come with 4 year warrantee as standard. I have no doubt he would put something in writing for me.
But thats for his pump not yours. Just because a shithouse pump with a 2yr warranty craps out after two years and you can buy a better pump with a 4 year guarantee doesn't mean your shithouse one should have lasted longer.
I would be pissed off if I was you as well, I just also recognise that there is some crappy gear out there that is made cheaply and the manufacturers basically only care that it lasts the warranty.
Pumps for household supplies and pumps for irrigation get used in different ways as well.
I don't know what your setup is but if your pump kicks in whenever you run water it will be on/of on/off a lot. That creates a lot of wear and tear compared to an irrigation system that starts and stops maybe four times a day. Gotta compare apples with apples if you want to make a good case.
You would probably need to show perfect maintenance records as per the warranty guide as well or the company will just brush you aside.
Just one of those bitchy things you have to deal with if not on mains water. -
@Crucial oh I am fully aware of the differences between them and fully expect them to tell me to get fucked.
My mate sells and installs pumps for tanks too (submersibles and external) not just irrigation systems, he also knows the pump they used, has had many issues, as the Director of the people that installed it also admitted.
The main issue would be if the pump provided wasn't fit for purpose; you build a 4 bed house, which means under Council guidelines is based on 4-6 people occupying it, which means give or take 1400-2100L per day on average, so the pump should be able to deal with the load of that many (in fact it needs to exceed this, as my effluent system is designed for) which includes going on and off for toilets, taps, showers, dishwashers etc, which would be very normal for any water pump in a domestic dwelling.
There is absolutely no maintenance schedule required (looking online it doesn't appear it required one either) or if so, I was not provided one, unlike my effluent system which needs to be serviced annually.
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My last "on demand" pump lasted at least 12 years, probably longer. It got hammered, because it's also connected to the stock water. Pretty sure it was a Grundfos - my new one definitely is. Can't remember quite what went wrong in the end, but the nub of the story is that it got stuck running pumping the same water, which eventually boiled and wrecked itself. I don't think they've got any particular maintenance, except you should probably change the filter annually.
On the other hand I recall my uncle being very unhappy that his one failed after just a handful of years.
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@Chris-B. ours is solely for domestic use, have no paddocks or troughs that need filling...well I do have a trough, but there is a tap form the people over the back who fill that (unknowingly) from an old connection that pre-dates our build.
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Mine runs about nine troughs and every time there's a leak in the system (frequently) the pump roars away until you hear it and track down the leak.
Fucking manufacturers of troughs, linkages and polythene pipe. I should have them under the CGA - selling me stuff that it's almost impossible to stop dripping somewhere - not fit for purpose, your honour!
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@taniwharugby said in Consumer Garantees act:
@Crucial oh I am fully aware of the differences between them and fully expect them to tell me to get fucked.
My mate sells and installs pumps for tanks too (submersibles and external) not just irrigation systems, he also knows the pump they used, has had many issues, as the Director of the people that installed it also admitted.
The main issue would be if the pump provided wasn't fit for purpose; you build a 4 bed house, which means under Council guidelines is based on 4-6 people occupying it, which means give or take 1400-2100L per day on average, so the pump should be able to deal with the load of that many (in fact it needs to exceed this, as my effluent system is designed for) which includes going on and off for toilets, taps, showers, dishwashers etc, which would be very normal for any water pump in a domestic dwelling.
There is absolutely no maintenance schedule required (looking online it doesn't appear it required one either) or if so, I was not provided one, unlike my effluent system which needs to be serviced annually.
My bad, I thought your claim was against the pump manufacturer rather than the builder/plumber whoever. If someone has installed a pump not suitable though then surely that is just a DT case rather than a consumer guarantee issue?
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We have a Grundfos at home and it has been faultless for > 10 years. However the company that makes the pumps that TR and I have just had simultaneously fail just outside of the warranty period is owned by ...Grundfos. Not sure if it is just a cheaper brand but they seem to have a lot more issues.
As for maintenance - it's basically nothing and only every 3 to 4 years. Both TR and my pumps failed in under 3 (but outside the 2 year warranty of course). Mine is probably more suited to it's job but they don't seem to be very good quality and they aren't a cheap option either.
I won't be purchasing another DAB pump myself.
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The warranty period for a product has nothing to do with the CGA other than as a number to attempt to obfuscate the actual reasonable lifespan of that product. The whole point of the CGA is that manufacturers and retailers can't just wash their hands of a product after the warranty period - it actually has to meet a reasonable person's expectations of acceptable standard.
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@Godder Absolutely. Having lived with domestic water pumps for long periods, they are actually quite reliable. The fact that TR and myself have both had one of the same brand and age fail not long after the warranty period is disappointing. I think a reasonable lifetime would be at least 5 years.
Whether you think I am a reasonable person would depend on how many of my posts you have read...and adding GFY DAB probably wouldn't help, but an acceptable level of reliability should exceed 2 1/2 years IMHO.
