Foe Cross Fit Fans
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[quote name='Duluth' timestamp='1359860065' post='341369']<br />
My main objection is the label. You have people who can in reality do 3 pullups claiming that they can do 20<br />
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The purpose of a real pull up is to exercise the lats. The lats are responsible for bringing the elbow closer to the body (pullups, rows etc)<br />
The reason you 'kip' is to do most of the retraction of the elbows with momentum and without engaging the lats.<br />
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So while the start and end points are the same it's an entirely different exercise. It is getting chin to the bar by any means possible.<br />
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No, it's literally to pull yourself up over the bar, so there's nothing wrong with calling it that. For bodybuilding you want to isolate the lats, in crossfit you want to perform the movement efficiently, using as little energy as possible. They are achieving different goals.<br />
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It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to compare a bodybuilding movement (or strength training, whatever) to a gymnastic movement. Apples and Oranges. -
[quote name='Duluth' timestamp='1359860658' post='341371']<br />
The choice of name is what causes the comparison.<br />
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It's called a kipping pull-up. And if the main site has it listed as simply a pull-up, that's because you can choose your method. <br />
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It's only confusing for people that think there is only one way to do a pull-up. -
I see TR did a assisted pull ups the other day. A great training method, but its clearly labelled as a cheat movement. I doubt he would ever simply refer to that movement as a pull up. Assisted pullups, kipping, negatives are all valid ways of extending sets<br />
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I just skimmed through the last few pages of you training thread and I saw more than 20 references to pullups but only one mention of kipping.<br />
Yet you've already conceded its a different exercise.<br />
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I'm not blaming you for that, crossfitters do it all the time. A large part of crossfit is marketing and hype.. I'm sure they are happy that crossfitters use the terms interchangeably and create confusion about the actual movement being completed.<br />
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Hail Xenu -
Context is everything, and in xFit it's assumed when there are large number of pull-ups you'll be kipping them. Same with muscle ups, handstand push-ups, large numbers of ring dips, bar muscle ups, the list goes on. <br />
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When I'm posting workouts i'll not be posting "kipping", same as I don't post squat snatch, or hand release push ups, or how I'm cycling my box jumps (although I record that info in my personal log). <br />
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Basically, I figure most people am aware I'm doing xFit workouts. <br />
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And just to be clear, a kipping pull-up is a pull-up. Has been for the decades that gymnastics have been using them, which is nothing to do with xFit "marketing". Same way a squat snatch and a power snatch are still a snatch, just different techniques.<br />
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But I'm sure you stopped reading a while ago, so you could come up with another "witty" Scientology quip. <br /> -
[quote name='Kirwan' timestamp='1359864823' post='341387']in xFit it's assumed when there are large number of pull-ups you'll be kipping them[/quote]<br />
Thats what I said earlier, crossfitters introduce confusion about the movement being performed. It's not because other people don't understand that cheat variations exist (as you claimed) its that crossfitters are using the term incorrectly -
I made a tongue in cheek comment about how the exercise should be labelled more clearly because kipping removes the main functional stress of the exercise. A point you conceded<br />
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You went on to say<br />
[quote name='Kirwan' timestamp='1359862021' post='341375']It's only confusing for people that think there is only one way to do a pull-up.[/quote]<br />
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[quote name='Kirwan' timestamp='1359864823' post='341387']xFit it's assumed when there are large number of pull-ups you'll be kipping them. [/quote]<br />
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The confusion comes from crossfitters<br />
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It's like using the term press-ups when you are doing lady press-ups on your knee. It's a cheat variation (nothing wrong with that) and it shouldn't be used interchangeably with the real exercise. -
I see where you have gotten confused, it's with my second quote. If you read that in context (with the previous posts too) you'll see that I was describing how the WODs were open to interpretation. In this case if they write pullups, you you have a choice about how you perform them; deadhang, kipping, mixed grip, they are even relaxed enough to let you do chins.<br />
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They assume you'll do kipping because it's more efficient than deadhangs. You've interpreted that to mean the pull-up term is interchangeable, that and how I summarised by WODs. It's up to the person what they want to get out of the workout. The point of certain types of xFit workouts is to maintain intensity, so if you are taking a minute off between reps of ten to get to 50 pullups, you are not maintaining any sort of intensity. If you can do 50 deadhangs in a row, knock yourself out.<br />
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It's the same with something like the clean, if they write clean you can power or squat clean. If they write squat clean, that's how you have to do it. Same with the workouts that prescribe deadhang pullups.<br />
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[size=4]By the way, anybody that thinks these are a cheat exercise clearly hasn't done one, they are actually pretty difficult. I watch new guys come through the classes that can do deadhangs, but struggle to do sets of kipping pullups. It's because it's a skill, training for a different purpose.[/size]<br />
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[size=4]Both are pullups. Not sure why it's so confusing (the term existed before xFit, and nobody accused [/size]gymnasts[size=4] of "cheating").[/size] -
[quote name='Kirwan' timestamp='1359868513' post='341412']They assume you'll do kipping because it's more efficient than deadhangs. [/quote]<br />
Yes crossfit introduces the confusion<br />
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[quote name='Kirwan' timestamp='1359868513' post='341412']You've interpreted that to mean the pull-up term is interchangeable, that and how I summarised by WODs. It's up to the person what they want to get out of the workout. The point of certain types of xFit workouts is to maintain intensity, so if you are taking a minute off between reps of ten to get to 50 pullups, you are not maintaining any sort of intensity. If you can do 50 deadhangs in a row, knock yourself out.[/quote]<br />
That is using the term interchangeably. You can complete it by doing pull ups or a cheat variation. It's assumed you'll do the cheat, but they'll still label it by the traditional exercises name.<br />
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Earlier in the thread you even said the two movements shouldn't be compared because they are so different. Now you are defending using the name of the real exercise interchangeably with the cheat variation.<br />
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[quote name='Kirwan' timestamp='1359868513' post='341412']Both are pullups. Not sure why it's so confusing (the term existed before xFit, and nobody accused gymnasts of "cheating")[/quote]<br />
Cheating is a standard term. The kipping pull up is a cheat variation of the exercise. You even said yourself that the purpose of the variation is to make the movement easier<br />
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Just to be clear there is nothing wrong with the movement if thats what you want to do. It just skips most of the Lat portion of the exercise.<br />
However the mis-labelling common in crossfit does overstate peoples abilities. -
- slow hand clap*<br />
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Did you pat yourself on the back every time you wrote cheat? #rolleyes<br />
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Who is confused by the way? CrossFitters know what we are doing, and someone training their lats in the gym knows what they are doing. Don't see much confusion there myself. <br />
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Well except maybe your confusion about being able to pick what pull-up technique you want in a xFit workout.
- slow hand clap*<br />
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[quote name='Red Beard' timestamp='1359869050' post='341414']<br />
I think I get it now!<br />
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Back to the original vid. The chick looked like she was having some kind of seizure when doing the kipping handstand push ups.<br />
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Her technique for those are terrible. It's a hard one to get right though, you should have your lower back against the wall, tuck your legs and explode out and up the wall. Her lack of shoulder strength for those was making it difficult to get into the right start position. <br />
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Same thing that stopped her getting that last Jerk at the higher weight. -
[quote name='Kirwan' timestamp='1359871063' post='341424']<br />
Her technique for those are terrible. It's a hard one to get right though, you should have your lower back against the wall, tuck your legs and explode out and up the wall. H[b]er lack of shoulder strength for those was making it difficult to get into the right start position.<br />
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Same thing that stopped her getting that last Jerk at the higher weight.[/b]<br />
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But all of that was probably fatigue from all the shit she'd done earlier ? -
[quote name='Kirwan' timestamp='1359871063' post='341424']<br />
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Her technique for those are terrible. It's a hard one to get right though, you should have your lower back against the wall, tuck your legs and explode out and up the wall. Her lack of shoulder strength for those was making it difficult to get into the right start position. <br />
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Same thing that stopped her getting that last Jerk at the higher weight.<br />
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Are handstand push ups a good exercise mate? Are they a viable alternative to say military presses? I know they're bloody tough. -
[quote name='Kirwan' timestamp='1359870898' post='341423']<br />
Did you pat yourself on the back every time you wrote cheat?<br />
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Cheat is a standard exercise term. Kipping is a cheat variation of traditional pull ups. Just like assisted pull ups are, or jumping to just do the negative etc etc<br />
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[quote name='Kirwan' timestamp='1359870898' post='341423']Who is confused by the way? CrossFitters know what we are doing, and someone training their lats in the gym knows what they are doing. Don't see much confusion there myself.<br />
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Well except maybe your confusion about being able to pick what pull-up technique you want in a xFit workout.[/quote]<br />
I don't understand whats so difficult to understand that the two exercises are different. Therefore you shouldn't use the term interchangeably<br />
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If you did 150 lady push ups on your knees, that's very different from doing 150 real push ups. Push ups is the name for the traditional strict movement. The cheat movement is also a push up but for clarity it should be stated that you did an easier variation. -
[quote name='Red Beard' timestamp='1359872158' post='341430']<br />
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Are handstand push ups a good exercise mate? Are they a viable alternative to say military presses? I know they're bloody tough.<br />
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They are easier than a press (even when done strict). I can press 70kg x 1, but I can do 10/11 handstand push-ups and I weigh around 81kg. <br />
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Works your core as well, and it's something different. Can do it at home too. -
wouldnt get as deep in the handstand push ups though would you, with the old noggin getting in the way, so movement is somewhat limited I'd of thought?
