Nonu

MN5

Serious question: Will he go down in AB folklore as a better player than his hero Tana Umaga? 
Tana obviously had the captaincy in his favour but as a player the argument can be made than Ma'a edges him.

taniwharugby

Tana was a wing/13...
 
Nonu, Nonu, Nonu, BOOM!
 
Says it all really! Legend!

phoenetia

Agree with all the above comments. I remember when he first came onto the scene, complete with eyeliner and everything.
He was quite one dimenstional back then, crash and bash and not much else from recollection.
I remember when he started kicking the ball and we were all like "hey what gives? Nonu can kick?". It wasnt all good to begin with, but it got better and better. 
And then he honed his ability to straighten, draw players and create space for those outside him.
I never would have thought he would become the player he is today, so dramatic has his transformation been.
Big boots to fill.

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="535014" data-time="1445904509">Serious question: Will he go down in AB folklore as a better player than his hero Tana Umaga? 
Tana obviously had the captaincy in his favour but as a player the argument can be made than Ma'a edges him.</blockquote>In my book yes. 
Captaincy aside, onfield influence is a push. Nonu edges him in terms of wider skill set, one (hopefully soon to be two) RWC winners medals and his durability. Tana dropped off badly and would have been dropped if he didn't quit imho. You could argue Nonu has never played better than right now

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="535019" data-time="1445904682">Tana was a wing/13... 
 
Nonu, Nonu, Nonu, BOOM! 
 
Says it all really! Legend!</blockquote>
 
You'll go a long way to find analysis that's more insightful and erudite than that.....

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="535014" data-time="1445904509">
<div>
Serious question: Will he go down in AB folklore as a better player than his hero Tana Umaga? 
Tana obviously had the captaincy in his favour but as a player the argument can be made than Ma'a edges him.
</div>
</blockquote>
I think Tana retired about two years too early which may have hindered his greatness credentials (I didn't notice a marked drop off in form from Tana, not at test level at least). It is worth noting though that they did a book of 100 greatest ABs when Tana was still playing and I think he made the top 25.
 
Ma'a has definitely secured his place in history though. Although, after watching some 2003 RWC highlights I do wonder if his late development as a 'rounded' player was due to coaching styles etc than Nonu himself. On a number of occasions in the highlights of his few minutes on the field he'd make a break and then throw a good pass. Maybe it was always there but he spent too much time as a battering ram wing and centre which didn't allow full use of his skills.
 
Ma'a and SBW are funny together at the end of that AB/Adidas doco.

taniwharugby

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="535025" data-time="1445904987">
<div>
You'll go a long way to find analysis that's more insightful and erudite than that.....
</div>
</blockquote>
 
here, check these out and let the big kids talk
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRxqFQoTCMPkso6x4cgCFYjapgodT3QB1A&url=http%3A%2F%2Fseannal.com%2Farticles%2Ftraining%2Fbuild-bigger-bicep-peaks.php&psig=AFQjCNHC6uxRVxrs9K4MEMF7ykoN2CkzKA&ust=1445991728087611'><img height="208" src="http://seannal.com/images/huge-biceps.jpg" width="244" alt="huge-biceps.jpg"></a>

Blue

Smoney Bill Who?

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Blue" data-cid="535031" data-time="1445905450">
Smoney Bill Who?</blockquote>He's Subbie Bill Williams to you

rotated

If you had have told me when Mauger and McAlister announced they were leaving during the RWC that their replacement was already a fixture in NZ rugby, would play 100 tests and would be better than both of them combined I would have had no idea who it was. Certainly wouldn't have guessed Nonu.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="535030" data-time="1445905385">
here, check these out and let the big kids talk <a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRxqFQoTCMPkso6x4cgCFYjapgodT3QB1A&url=http%3A%2F%2Fseannal.com%2Farticles%2Ftraining%2Fbuild-bigger-bicep-peaks.php&psig=AFQjCNHC6uxRVxrs9K4MEMF7ykoN2CkzKA&ust=1445991728087611"><img src="http://seannal.com/images/huge-biceps.jpg" alt="huge-biceps.jpg"></a></blockquote>
How many ABs you seen running round Whangarei lately ? 
Those chin ups have really paid off though bro

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="535014" data-time="1445904509">
<div>
Serious question: Will he go down in AB folklore as a better player than his hero Tana Umaga? 
Tana obviously had the captaincy in his favour but as a player the argument can be made than Ma'a edges him.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
In folklore Tana probably goes down as the greater character due to the captaincy, the O'Driscoll incident and aftermath, Grand Slam and the cheerleader effect with Cullen and Lomu.
 
Tana has always been the toughest All Black to evaluate for me. It's always tough to find players historically or currently with a similar resume.
 
I don't ever think Tana was the best outside back in the team, nor was he the conclusively the best player in the world in his position. Nonu was both at times. For me Nonu was the better player by a decent margin. The fact he not only kept SBW out of the team, but he was never genuinely threatened for the position speaks volumes to his ability.

MN5

Tana did genuinely excel in two positions which is a string to the bow.....

ACT Crusader

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="535067" data-time="1445907959">Tana did genuinely excel in two positions which is a string to the bow.....</blockquote>
 
Did he? I thought he was an okay centre/2nd 5, but nothing like what he showed as a winger. Despite being in there with Lomu and Cullen, he was IMO in his own right a world class winger.

voodoo

Tana the better defender

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="535067" data-time="1445907959">Tana did genuinely excel in two positions which is a string to the bow.....</blockquote>And as captain he had a crucial role in helping the new GH cartel gain widespread acceptance IIRC

MN5

He was up there as a centre but memory might be blurred and perhaps taking his mana, leadership etc too much into account.

rotated

As a centre can you genuinely say he was a head above his contemporaries like Mortlock, O'Driscoll & Fleck? You wouldn't fault anyone for having that quartet in any particular order.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="535076" data-time="1445908559">As a centre can you genuinely say he was a head above his contemporaries like Mortlock, O'Driscoll & Fleck? You wouldn't fault anyone for having that quarter in any particular order.</blockquote>
 
I guess Nonu stands alone at 12 although cases can be made for Giteau, Roberts and Fofana and young fellas like Henshaw and De Allende look the goods for the future too.

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="535060" data-time="1445907514">
<div>
In folklore Tana probably goes down as the greater character due to the captaincy, the O'Driscoll incident and aftermath, Grand Slam and the cheerleader effect with Cullen and Lomu.
 
Tana has always been the toughest All Black to evaluate for me. It's always tough to find players historically or currently with a similar resume.
 
I don't ever think Tana was the best outside back in the team, nor was he the conclusively the best player in the world in his position. Nonu was both at times. For me Nonu was the better player by a decent margin. The fact he not only kept SBW out of the team, but he was never genuinely threatened for the position speaks volumes to his ability.
</div>
</blockquote>
I think he was the form outside back through most of 1999. I guess that means best. But when you consider that Cullen, Wilson and Lomu were contenders for best outside back in the world during that era then the fact that Tana was up there speaks volumes to his abilities.
 
I think Tana's value as a 13 is underestimated. He turned what was a poor area for the ABs after Bunce's departure to one of strength. I think he's underrated as a centre in part because of Smith's longevity in the role.
 
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="535076" data-time="1445908559">
<div>
As a centre can you genuinely say he was a head above his contemporaries like Mortlock, O'Driscoll & Fleck? You wouldn't fault anyone for having that quarter in any particular order.
</div>
</blockquote>
Above Fleck, easily comparable with Mortlock and at times better than BoD. But as you note, that's a strong list so it's no shame not to be top of it. 
 
At any rate, I love Nonu, he's awesome, and how lucky was it for him that McAlister and Mauger buggered off when they did - either one of those two stay and he might have had a 20 test AB career.

The Silver Fern

Nonu