Black Lives Matter
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@Crazy-Horse said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Crazy-Horse said in Black Lives Matter:
Letting people go because they are not in the mood to be arrested will lead to more people resisting arrest. Once criminals realise that all you have to do to avoid arrest is to fight, they will fight.
We see something similar in Qld with our very restricted pursuit policy. Grubs know we can't pursue so they don't pull over. Every night we now have multiple stolen cars driving dangerous on Qld roads with little chance of getting caught. It is not unusual to have vehicles driving the wrong way on the motorway at speeds well over 100km/h. It is scary and people are being killed.
Well it's a judgement call. If someone is resisting arrest but they are running off and they have a weapon, let them go. If someone is resisting arrest and they are danger to the public, hunt them down. If someone is resisting arrest and they don't have a weapon, taser them.
Under your rules they will quickly learn to flash a gun at police.
Why would they? If someone flashes a gun at Police, they should be shot. That is obvious. If they flash a gun at Police and aren't shot (but some miracle) the criminal justice system should deal with them harshly.
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@booboo said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Crazy-Horse said in Black Lives Matter:
Letting people go because they are not in the mood to be arrested will lead to more people resisting arrest. Once criminals realise that all you have to do to avoid arrest is to fight, they will fight.
We see something similar in Qld with our very restricted pursuit policy. Grubs know we can't pursue so they don't pull over. Every night we now have multiple stolen cars driving dangerous on Qld roads with little chance of getting caught. It is not unusual to have vehicles driving the wrong way on the motorway at speeds well over 100km/h. It is scary and people are being killed.
Well it's a judgement call. If someone is resisting arrest but they are running off and they have a weapon, let them go. If someone is resisting arrest and they are danger to the public, hunt them down. If someone is resisting arrest and they don't have a weapon, taser them.
With the pursuits, it is a tough one. The general question has to be how safe is the pursuit and how dangerous is the driving? Most people in New Zealand who drive off are caught another day with no issues.
What if they'd stolen the taser?
Already covered this. If they are a threat to the public or an officer's safety, that is one thing. If they are fleeing, that is another.
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@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 thought you said if they have a weapon and are running away, they should be let go? Sorry if mistaken.
If someone is running away, they are not flashing a gun at Police. Those situations are different.
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@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 thought you said if they have a weapon and are running away, they should be let go? Sorry if mistaken.
If someone is running away, they are not flashing a gun at Police. Those situations are different.
This is confusing...how do the police find out they have a weapon then?
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@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
Most people who get arrested for a DUI don't have a whole stash of guns in the house. If this guy was a gangster, he probably would have been carrying anyway.
I'm intrigued as to your source of this knowledge.
Because only 3 in 10 Americans actually own a gun?
Perfect then! I guess the ones that own a gun are the ones ya really need to worry about. Not the ones that "don't own a gun".
This whole thing started from another poster implying there is a lower chance of dying from shooting someone, than from coming back the next day. There is approx 1000 people killed by Police each year in the USA and approx 50,000 SWAT raids. So the chance of someone dying from a SWAT raid or it devolving into a mass shooting is very low. Certainly that is an option less likely to lead to someone dying than by actually shooting someone.
Regardless, it's not obvious that you would even use SWAT to arrest someone for a DUI.
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@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
Most people who get arrested for a DUI don't have a whole stash of guns in the house. If this guy was a gangster, he probably would have been carrying anyway.
I'm intrigued as to your source of this knowledge.
Because only 3 in 10 Americans actually own a gun?
Perfect then! I guess the ones that own a gun are the ones ya really need to worry about. Not the ones that "don't own a gun".
This whole thing started from another poster implying there is a lower chance of dying from shooting someone, than from coming back the next day. There is approx 1000 people killed by Police each year in the USA and approx 50,000 SWAT raids. So the chance of someone dying from a SWAT raid or it devolving into a mass shooting is very low. Certainly that is an option less likely to lead to someone dying than by actually shooting someone.
Regardless, it's not obvious that you would even use SWAT to arrest someone for a DUI.
Think that's being misleading using the numbers like that. 1000 people killed by police - out of how many encounters? 50,000 SWAT raids, how many deaths do they result in?
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@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 thought you said if they have a weapon and are running away, they should be let go? Sorry if mistaken.
If someone is running away, they are not flashing a gun at Police. Those situations are different.
This is confusing...how do the police find out they have a weapon then?
Sorry but isn't that really trivial? You pull someone over. You breath test them. They are over the limit. You ask them to step out of the car with their hands where you can see them. You put them in hand cuffs. If there are sudden movements you taser them. You check for weapons once you have arrested them.
If you have reason to believe they have a gun, you deal with the situation differently.
I would have thought what I said was Policing 101 and I don't think there is any debate about that process.
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@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 thought you said if they have a weapon and are running away, they should be let go? Sorry if mistaken.
If someone is running away, they are not flashing a gun at Police. Those situations are different.
This is confusing...how do the police find out they have a weapon then?
Sorry but isn't that really trivial? You pull someone over. You breath test them. They are over the limit. You ask them to step out of the car with their hands where you can see them. You put them in hand cuffs. If there are sudden movements you taser them. You check for weapons once you have arrested them.
If you have reason to believe they have a gun, you deal with the situation differently.
I would have thought what I said was Policing 101 and I don't think there is any debate about that process.
Sounds idealistic to me.
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@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
Most people who get arrested for a DUI don't have a whole stash of guns in the house. If this guy was a gangster, he probably would have been carrying anyway.
I'm intrigued as to your source of this knowledge.
Because only 3 in 10 Americans actually own a gun?
Perfect then! I guess the ones that own a gun are the ones ya really need to worry about. Not the ones that "don't own a gun".
This whole thing started from another poster implying there is a lower chance of dying from shooting someone, than from coming back the next day. There is approx 1000 people killed by Police each year in the USA and approx 50,000 SWAT raids. So the chance of someone dying from a SWAT raid or it devolving into a mass shooting is very low. Certainly that is an option less likely to lead to someone dying than by actually shooting someone.
Regardless, it's not obvious that you would even use SWAT to arrest someone for a DUI.
Think that's being misleading using the numbers like that. 1000 people killed by police - out of how many encounters? 50,000 SWAT raids, how many deaths do they result in?
Yeah but my argument is that coming back the next day to do a SWAT raid is a better option than straight up shooting someone who is fleeing from Police and is not posing a danger to public safety.
I'm saying that even if you attribute all killings by Police to SWAT raids, they still only have a 1 in 50 death rate. Shooting someone at close range is going to kill someone a lot more than 2% of the time.
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@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 thought you said if they have a weapon and are running away, they should be let go? Sorry if mistaken.
If someone is running away, they are not flashing a gun at Police. Those situations are different.
This is confusing...how do the police find out they have a weapon then?
Sorry but isn't that really trivial? You pull someone over. You breath test them. They are over the limit. You ask them to step out of the car with their hands where you can see them. You put them in hand cuffs. If there are sudden movements you taser them. You check for weapons once you have arrested them.
If you have reason to believe they have a gun, you deal with the situation differently.
I would have thought what I said was Policing 101 and I don't think there is any debate about that process.
Sounds idealistic to me.
When you train someone, you have to teach them the ideal. You then have to teach them how to respond to different situations.
I don't see what the alternative is? Treat everyone breathalyzed as if they are going to shoot you with a gun at any moment? My ideal is actually more strict than what a NZ Police officer would do but is appropriate for America. I don't believe should assume someone has a weapon unless they have found one or have other evidence.
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The fact that there is so much grey area here, and in so many cases like this as human beings never stick to a standard script, just makes me think fuck being a cop. They don't appear to get a great deal of training, and are then asked to deal with high stress situations that can easily end in death - theirs or the suspects.
It seems to me the two big takeaways from the last few weeks is that cops need better support/training, and that if they step way outside what is reasonable they need to be held to account consistently. Those two things would go a long way to restoring trust in them and the system.
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@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 thought you said if they have a weapon and are running away, they should be let go? Sorry if mistaken.
If someone is running away, they are not flashing a gun at Police. Those situations are different.
This is confusing...how do the police find out they have a weapon then?
Sorry but isn't that really trivial? You pull someone over. You breath test them. They are over the limit. You ask them to step out of the car with their hands where you can see them. You put them in hand cuffs. If there are sudden movements you taser them. You check for weapons once you have arrested them.
If you have reason to believe they have a gun, you deal with the situation differently.
I would have thought what I said was Policing 101 and I don't think there is any debate about that process.
Sounds idealistic to me.
When you train someone, you have to teach them the ideal. You then have to teach them how to respond to different situations.
I don't see what the alternative is? Treat everyone breathalyzed as if they are going to shoot you with a gun at any moment? My ideal is actually more strict than what a NZ Police officer would do but is appropriate for America. I don't believe should assume someone has a weapon unless they have found one or have other evidence.
Survival 101 as a cop, and more so in the US - treat everyone as high risk or unknown risk. You get complacent, you get injured or killed. A cop never knows who they are dealing with.
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@No-Quarter said in Black Lives Matter:
The fact that there is so much grey area here, and in so many cases like this as human beings never stick to a standard script, just makes me think fuck being a cop. They don't appear to get a great deal of training, and are then asked to deal with high stress situations that can easily end in death - theirs or the suspects.
It seems to me the two big takeaways from the last few weeks is that cops need better support/training, and that if they step way outside what is reasonable they need to be held to account consistently. Those two things would go a long way to restoring trust in them and the system.
There is a very high rate of PTSD in police. Cops, especially those on the frontline, are constantly in a state of hypervigilance, even when they are not at work. That takes a toll. The cop's personality will change over time. Marriages and friendships suffer as a result. Seeing the worst in people every single day makes it very hard to remember there are good people out there.
There is support, but cops are reluctant to admit they need it. Also, there is a very real threat that if the bosses find out it could cause problems for them.
I am no psychologist, but I reckon a lot of the bad behaviour/excessive force that we see from time to time is a result of PTSD. And you know what? Cops can be the harshest critics of other cops. We normally shake our heads and say "What a fluffybunny" instead of "Are you alright?" when we see a colleague overreact.
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@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 thought you said if they have a weapon and are running away, they should be let go? Sorry if mistaken.
If someone is running away, they are not flashing a gun at Police. Those situations are different.
This is confusing...how do the police find out they have a weapon then?
Sorry but isn't that really trivial? You pull someone over. You breath test them. They are over the limit. You ask them to step out of the car with their hands where you can see them. You put them in hand cuffs. If there are sudden movements you taser them. You check for weapons once you have arrested them.
If you have reason to believe they have a gun, you deal with the situation differently.
I would have thought what I said was Policing 101 and I don't think there is any debate about that process.
Sounds idealistic to me.
When you train someone, you have to teach them the ideal. You then have to teach them how to respond to different situations.
Maybe I am not understanding what you mean, but you can't actually teach someone how to respond to different situations when it comes to the routine police/public interaction. That comes with experience. There are way too many variables.
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@Crazy-Horse said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@hydro11 thought you said if they have a weapon and are running away, they should be let go? Sorry if mistaken.
If someone is running away, they are not flashing a gun at Police. Those situations are different.
This is confusing...how do the police find out they have a weapon then?
Sorry but isn't that really trivial? You pull someone over. You breath test them. They are over the limit. You ask them to step out of the car with their hands where you can see them. You put them in hand cuffs. If there are sudden movements you taser them. You check for weapons once you have arrested them.
If you have reason to believe they have a gun, you deal with the situation differently.
I would have thought what I said was Policing 101 and I don't think there is any debate about that process.
Sounds idealistic to me.
When you train someone, you have to teach them the ideal. You then have to teach them how to respond to different situations.
Maybe I am not understanding what you mean, but you can't actually teach someone how to respond to different situations when it comes to the routine police/public interaction. That comes with experience. There are way too many variables.
.....and that can be as simple as giving someone a ticket or not.
Problem is the public expect perfection and consistency every single time.
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@Crazy-Horse said in Black Lives Matter:
@No-Quarter said in Black Lives Matter:
The fact that there is so much grey area here, and in so many cases like this as human beings never stick to a standard script, just makes me think fuck being a cop. They don't appear to get a great deal of training, and are then asked to deal with high stress situations that can easily end in death - theirs or the suspects.
It seems to me the two big takeaways from the last few weeks is that cops need better support/training, and that if they step way outside what is reasonable they need to be held to account consistently. Those two things would go a long way to restoring trust in them and the system.
There is a very high rate of PTSD in police. Cops, especially those on the frontline, are constantly in a state of hypervigilance, even when they are not at work. That takes a toll. The cop's personality will change over time. Marriages and friendships suffer as a result. Seeing the worst in people every single day makes it very hard to remember there are good people out there.
There is support, but cops are reluctant to admit they need it. Also, there is a very real threat that if the bosses find out it could cause problems for them.
I am no psychologist, but I reckon a lot of the bad behaviour/excessive force that we see from time to time is a result of PTSD. And you know what? Cops can be the harshest critics of other cops. We normally shake our heads and say "What a fluffybunny" instead of "Are you alright?" when we see a colleague overreact.
This post took me back to my childhood.
My old man was a screw, and whenever we went out he would, and does - without fail - sit in a seat where he could see everyone else in the room.
Two examples.
We are in a restaurant, and while we are eating my old man is sitting there, like a stone, holding his cutlery but not eating. And two rather large guys walk by and say 'hey boss, nice family'.
The other is one I don't remember well, but it involved my Mum pushing us all into a store on the main street, and us waiting in there for ages because we were being followed down the street by some people who saw my old man and started following us. My old man stayed outside to talk to them, and it was apparently a pretty simple convo (e.g., 'hey boss, shopping with the wife?' 'Yep')
Him and his friends tell stories that I just can't understand.
For cops, I imagine it's much much worse.
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@MN5 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Snowy said in Black Lives Matter:
@Rembrandt said in Black Lives Matter:
Full footage including before arrest and after shooting. The shooter was the one who had the taser fired at him. (I
I wonder if the lethality percentage of the taser changes if it hits someone directly in the head?Debrief starts at 1.04. Pretty interesting to see behind the scenes, a lot of support from fellow officers.
Imagine the thoughts going through your head after the shooting, being pretty sure you did your job correctly but maybe knowing that might be irrelevant as you were born with the wrong skin colour for this day and age in police enforcement.
I watched most of that up until they shot him.
My first question is why the fuck didn't they just breathalise him to start with? He was clearly DUI but that was about 25 minutes of him trying to be polite before they actually test him. I was getting annoyed just watching it.As for tasers in the head - can cause brain injury - whether that is more lethal than a taser in the chest (can cause cardiac arrest) I don't know.
That was an unarmed drunk that they shot. They had even checked him for weapons. I don't believe that is doing your job to protect and serve correctly. He even said that he would walk home. Who were they protecting from him?
That was a reflex, trigger happy killing. IMO.Wow, fuck being a cop in the US after this ( and other ) fiascos.
They'll be terrified and not know what to do next time someone resists arrest.
Yep. Not getting your taser pinched and shooting the perp in the back would be start though.