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The future of NZ Rugby

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The future of NZ Rugby
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  • M Offline
    M Offline
    Machpants
    replied to KiwiMurph on last edited by
    #141

    @KiwiMurph said in The future of NZ Rugby:

    @Machpants said in The future of NZ Rugby:

    @mofitzy_ said in The future of NZ Rugby:
    "Impey has said that SRA isn't financially viable so NZ needs Aust (and vice versa)." No he said a five team domestic league is not viable, increasing it to 8NZ teams is. It wasn't around finance but number of games. Ozzie will bring in fuck all money

    Not sure how NZ are going to fund or have the population to support 8 professional teams.

    Well Impey said it is viable, so I guess there are plans within plans. NPC non pro (cos it is a massive loss maker), 8 teams on low SR level money, but to get the big moola you need ABs, as now - but maybe more pronounced? I dunno

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  • KiwiMurphK Online
    KiwiMurphK Online
    KiwiMurph
    replied to Stargazer on last edited by
    #142

    @Stargazer said in The future of NZ Rugby:

    First of all, I'm not sure I believe that Aussie article. They're shitstirring on a regular basis.

    Good call.

    Daniel Gilhooly  /  Jul 8, 2020  /  Rugby

    Penney warns NZ Rugby off going alone

    Penney warns NZ Rugby off going alone

    NSW Waratahs coach Rob Penney has fired a warning shot at New Zealand Rugby (NZR) to weigh the...

    New Zealand Rugby insists it has made no decision about its preference for a trans- Ta$man competition to replace Super Rugby next year and hasn't been pressured by Australian interests.
    
    NZR chief executive Mark Robinson hit out at Australian media reports that his board were split over two possible preferred models - an open-border split of five NZ and five Australian franchises; or an eight-team competition featuring five from NZ, two from Australia and one from the Pacific.
    
    Robinson said the board had yet to even see a copy of the independent Kiwi-driven "Aratipu Report" recommendations which will be unveiled publicly next week.
    
    A report in the Sydney Morning Herald said Rugby Australia was poised to reject any proposal featuring three or less Australian teams.
    
    Robinson said he had spoken to RA chief executive Rob Clarke earlier on Thursday and received no steer on his preference for 2021 and beyond.
    
    "There's nothing we're hearing about what they would and wouldn't be open to at this stage," Robinson said.
    
    "I'm not aware of what Australia are particularly focused on in that area."
    
    Robinson said suggestions his board were split was "absolute nonsense" along with suggestions the Sanzaar joint venture was on the verge of being dismantled.
    
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  • BovidaeB Offline
    BovidaeB Offline
    Bovidae
    wrote on last edited by Bovidae
    #143

    Some other quotes from Robinson.

    "As recently as Tuesday, I was reconfirming NZRs commitment to the partnership moving forward," Robinson said on Thursday.
    
    "Clearly things like international rugby have a key part to play and club or franchise rugby that's been worked through."
    

    The latter comment seemed to be implying that SANZAAR may have control over international rugby only.

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  • KiapK Offline
    KiapK Offline
    Kiap
    replied to Machpants on last edited by
    #144

    @Machpants said in The future of NZ Rugby:

    We have a 250 mill 5 yr deal with sky

    If you believe that number won't be adjusted then I've got a bridge for sale you might be interested in.

    Having said that, you're right that broadcast deals (such as they are) don't always get split 50-50.

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  • gt12G Offline
    gt12G Offline
    gt12
    wrote on last edited by
    #145

    If NZ rugby isn't actively discussing a 13-15 team competition that involves NZ, Oz, and Japan, they've got rocks in their heads.

    Allow Kiwis to play for any team in the competition to remain eligible for AB selection.

    Alternatively, set up an NZ pro competition (lets say 8 teams) that runs at a different time to the Japan competition. Allow players to play in Japan to make money, and NZ to remain available for ABs (in this case, managing workloads would be much harder).

    rotatedR 1 Reply Last reply
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  • rotatedR Offline
    rotatedR Offline
    rotated
    replied to gt12 on last edited by
    #146

    @gt12 said in The future of NZ Rugby:

    If NZ rugby isn't actively discussing a 13-15 team competition that involves NZ, Oz, and Japan, they've got rocks in their heads.

    Allow Kiwis to play for any team in the competition to remain eligible for AB selection.

    Alternatively, set up an NZ pro competition (lets say 8 teams) that runs at a different time to the Japan competition. Allow players to play in Japan to make money, and NZ to remain available for ABs (in this case, managing workloads would be much harder).

    What is the planned schedule for the Top League going forward? I'm confused with the multiple seasons and COVID?

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  • KiwiwombleK Offline
    KiwiwombleK Offline
    Kiwiwomble
    wrote on last edited by
    #147

    what ever they put forward, NZ needs to accept not being as dominant as we were for most of Super Rugby or we'll just end up killing the interest in places like Aus or Japan where Rugby isn't the No 1 sport...for NZ rugby to survive we need other countries markets...and for these markets to exist theyre going to need to win some games

    I think a lot of true rugby fans forget that most supporter watch it for there team to win...most people dont watch games just hoping for some good rugby regardless of whos winning

    pukunuiP 1 Reply Last reply
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  • sparkyS Offline
    sparkyS Offline
    sparky
    wrote on last edited by sparky
    #148

    Call it New Super 12. Five franchises in NZ, four in Aus, two in Japan and one in Suva (but would play a couple of games a year in Hawaii or California) . Round robin followed by Semis and a Grand Final.

    Kiwis can play in any of these teams and be available for the ABs as long as they follow NZR protocols on injury-prevention, rest and being available for ABs duty.

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  • pukunuiP Offline
    pukunuiP Offline
    pukunui
    replied to Kiwiwomble on last edited by
    #149

    @Kiwiwomble said in The future of NZ Rugby:

    what ever they put forward, NZ needs to accept not being as dominant as we were for most of Super Rugby or we'll just end up killing the interest in places like Aus or Japan where Rugby isn't the No 1 sport...for NZ rugby to survive we need other countries markets...and for these markets to exist theyre going to need to win some games

    I think a lot of true rugby fans forget that most supporter watch it for there team to win...most people dont watch games just hoping for some good rugby regardless of whos winning

    Your two paragraphs don’t match up. You are suggesting diluting NZ teams to make them shitter to save NZ rugby.
    But then saying people watch to see their teams be good and win.

    So lets turn away NZ fans in the hope that we make some Aussie bandwagon jumpers happy? Fuck that.

    Japan rugby showed no interest in the sunwolves, where is the evidence to suggest they are suddenly going to want to put multiple teams in Super rugby?

    Adding a team from the pacific is equally crazy. It will be a commercial basket case.

    If a return to a Super 15 round robin like was meant to happen is a no go and a 9-10 team trans Ta$man comp isn’t considered viable and Rugby Aotearoa also isn’t considered viable then i would think the best option would be a revamped NPC.
    No more super franchises. Just take the top 8-10 Provinces and create a first division round robin. And make a second division with the remaining npc teams plus dome heartland sides and one or two from the pacific.
    Have automatic promotion/relegation.

    But quite frankly, if the three options above (super 15, trans Ta$man or RAot) aren’t viable we are in trouble.
    Chucking pacific islands teams or japanese teams in and allowing our players to freely drain away is going to be a bigger disaster than the over expanded, conference based mess super rugby had become already.

    rotatedR KiwiwombleK 2 Replies Last reply
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  • rotatedR Offline
    rotatedR Offline
    rotated
    replied to pukunui on last edited by
    #150

    @pukunui said in The future of NZ Rugby:

    Just take the top 8-10 Provinces and create a first division round robin.

    Not as easy as just doing that. How did that go last time?

    The obvious unions to drop will try to delay with legal action and then go cap in hand to the NZRU asking to pay their legal bill. I agree it's the right option but I would want to see there is either a resolve from the NZRU to see it through or a way to avoid a protracted legal process.

    pukunuiP taniwharugbyT 2 Replies Last reply
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  • pukunuiP Offline
    pukunuiP Offline
    pukunui
    replied to rotated on last edited by
    #151

    @rotated said in The future of NZ Rugby:

    @pukunui said in The future of NZ Rugby:

    Just take the top 8-10 Provinces and create a first division round robin.

    Not as easy as just doing that. How did that go last time?

    The obvious unions to drop will try to delay with legal action and then go cap in hand to the NZRU asking to pay their legal bill. I agree it's the right option but I would want to see there is either a resolve from the NZRU to see it through or a way to avoid a protracted legal process.

    Yeah, definitely only plan D given the drastic restructure it would involve. But there don’t seem to be many easy options if we are moving away from super.
    The other point I haven’t heard mentioned is that if we are all of a sudden creating new NZ Super teams, where are the players coming from? Of the players who are off contract i would think a large percentage would still be looking at signing for one of the 5 existing teams.
    It will take years for the new team/teams to get established. In the mean time we will see some lop sided games and be back at square one.

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  • mofitzy_M Offline
    mofitzy_M Offline
    mofitzy_
    wrote on last edited by
    #152

    Within the Pacific region we have the worlds 1st and 3rd biggest economies, USA (West Coast, Hawaii) and Japan. We need to find a way to tap into those markets. If the world league is a non starter then somehow have Top League and MLR integration.

    gt12G 1 Reply Last reply
    2
  • gt12G Offline
    gt12G Offline
    gt12
    replied to mofitzy_ on last edited by
    #153

    @mofitzy_

    Agreed. I don't know exactly how to do it, but it makes me laugh when kiwis bang on about having a great 8 team kiwi only competition.

    Neat.

    With 5 million ppl in the home market, and even on a sports forum quite a few don't bother paying for Sky, that's definitely a must have on every sports channel.

    For better or worse, NZ needs to find some bigger markets they can tie up with.

    A two-tiered competition (SRA + ____) would allow the best of both worlds, and allow a Southern club championship like the Heineken cup.

    Or, they could go for a a two tiered Super competition. I don't know how, but I'm sure that a good solution doesn't have NZ going it alone.

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  • taniwharugbyT Offline
    taniwharugbyT Offline
    taniwharugby
    replied to rotated on last edited by taniwharugby
    #154

    @rotated well if it is done properly, not on some manipulated figures for a predetermined outcome, it would be harder to argue against.

    Similar to the way you bang the same drum about blaming the provinces that were under the gun without addressing the fact NZR failed to do the restructure transparently last time.

    Was a hatchet job and was rightly pulled.

    rotatedR 1 Reply Last reply
    1
  • rotatedR Offline
    rotatedR Offline
    rotated
    replied to taniwharugby on last edited by
    #155

    @taniwharugby said in The future of NZ Rugby:

    @rotated well if it is done properly, not on some manipulated figures for a predetermined outcome, it would be harder to argue against.

    Similar to the way you bang the same drum about blaming the provinces that were under the gun without addressing the fact NZR failed to do the restructure transparently last time.

    Was a hatchet job and was rightly pulled.

    As @pukunui said 8-10 provinces. You could have the most an absolute meritocracy and crystal clear transparency and there is no way you are going to get 4-6 provinces to roll over when you could have two go quietly when about five were on financial life support a decade ago.

    If you are making a radical change like restoring (a form of) the Mitre 10 Cup to the premier domestic competition then the decisions should be strategic anyway. There is no criteria that would see any of the Super bases miss out for example.

    taniwharugbyT 1 Reply Last reply
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  • taniwharugbyT Offline
    taniwharugbyT Offline
    taniwharugby
    replied to rotated on last edited by taniwharugby
    #156

    @rotated you still miss the point they were basing the dropping of provinces on manipulated numbers, which left them open to a legal challenge.

    But we've been over this bridge many times and we will never agree.

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  • StargazerS Offline
    StargazerS Offline
    Stargazer
    wrote on last edited by
    #157

    South Auckland base for planned Pasifika super rugby side

    A group of former All Blacks, including two-time World Cup winner Jerome Kaino, are behind the establishment of the first professional rugby union team in Hawaii.

    Kanaloa Hawaii has had its bid to join America's Major League Rugby confirmed and is now in talks with New Zealand Rugby about joining a revamped Super Rugby competition.

    It would be a separate team to the one that will play in the US, and would be based in South Auckland.

    Kaino and fellow former All Blacks Joe Rokocoko, John Afoa, Benson Stanley, Anthony Tuitavake and Ben Atiga are in the Kanaloa Hawaii ownership group.

    .

    The chief executive of Kanaloa Hawaii, Tracy Atiga, told RNZ Pacific, said they have already had discussions with New Zealand Rugby about the possibility of joining a new-look Super Rugby tournament.

    New Zealand Rugby is currently examining the future make up of Super Rugby and the international Rugby Championship, with its Aratipu report due to go to the board next week.

    "We would essentially set up our satellite programme which is here in south Auckland to accommodate a second team," said Atiga.

    "So we are not talking about one team that plays in the MLR and then they come and play in Super Rugby - we are talking about two pro teams that would have equally competitive athletes at that level and we would own and operate them in co-ordination with each other," she said.

    Former All Blacks and Wallabies skills coach Mick Byrne would be head coach with former All Black Tamati Ellison assistant coach.

    Jul 13, 2020  /  Sport

    South Auckland base for planned Pasifika super rugby side

    South Auckland base for planned Pasifika super rugby side

    A Pacific Islands Super Rugby team based in South Auckland is gaining traction.

    RapidoR 1 Reply Last reply
    3
  • KiwiwombleK Offline
    KiwiwombleK Offline
    Kiwiwomble
    replied to pukunui on last edited by Kiwiwomble
    #158

    @pukunui said in The future of NZ Rugby:

    @Kiwiwomble said in The future of NZ Rugby:

    what ever they put forward, NZ needs to accept not being as dominant as we were for most of Super Rugby or we'll just end up killing the interest in places like Aus or Japan where Rugby isn't the No 1 sport...for NZ rugby to survive we need other countries markets...and for these markets to exist theyre going to need to win some games

    I think a lot of true rugby fans forget that most supporter watch it for there team to win...most people dont watch games just hoping for some good rugby regardless of whos winning

    Your two paragraphs don’t match up. You are suggesting diluting NZ teams to make them shitter to save NZ rugby.
    But then saying people watch to see their teams be good and win.

    So lets turn away NZ fans in the hope that we make some Aussie bandwagon jumpers happy? Fuck that.

    Japan rugby showed no interest in the sunwolves, where is the evidence to suggest they are suddenly going to want to put multiple teams in Super rugby?

    Adding a team from the pacific is equally crazy. It will be a commercial basket case.

    If a return to a Super 15 round robin like was meant to happen is a no go and a 9-10 team trans Ta$man comp isn’t considered viable and Rugby Aotearoa also isn’t considered viable then i would think the best option would be a revamped NPC.
    No more super franchises. Just take the top 8-10 Provinces and create a first division round robin. And make a second division with the remaining npc teams plus dome heartland sides and one or two from the pacific.
    Have automatic promotion/relegation.

    But quite frankly, if the three options above (super 15, trans Ta$man or RAot) aren’t viable we are in trouble.
    Chucking pacific islands teams or japanese teams in and allowing our players to freely drain away is going to be a bigger disaster than the over expanded, conference based mess super rugby had become already.

    I was talking about new/potential/non NZ fans, they're not going to get invested if they just get thumped by the NZ teams every week

    I agree with the NPC stuff you mention though

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  • CrucialC Offline
    CrucialC Offline
    Crucial
    wrote on last edited by
    #159

    Don't forget that NPC has had major problems over time. Not just on the money side but through the same dominance issues that are being discussed about in Super.
    Before NPC (and in the early years) talent was spread natuarally. Provincial teams hadn't had their kids 'scholarshipped' away to the cities and many returned home after a spell at University.
    The combination of money where the cities are and schools acting like pro-clubs nowdays means that domination by the 'big' teams will continue to be entrenched.
    Trying to even out teams through drafts won't work. The mixture of cities and provincial towns puts paid to that.

    1 Reply Last reply
    0
  • RapidoR Offline
    RapidoR Offline
    Rapido
    replied to Stargazer on last edited by Rapido
    #160

    @Stargazer said in The future of NZ Rugby:

    South Auckland base for planned Pasifika super rugby side

    A group of former All Blacks, including two-time World Cup winner Jerome Kaino, are behind the establishment of the first professional rugby union team in Hawaii.

    Kanaloa Hawaii has had its bid to join America's Major League Rugby confirmed and is now in talks with New Zealand Rugby about joining a revamped Super Rugby competition.

    It would be a separate team to the one that will play in the US, and would be based in South Auckland.

    Kaino and fellow former All Blacks Joe Rokocoko, John Afoa, Benson Stanley, Anthony Tuitavake and Ben Atiga are in the Kanaloa Hawaii ownership group.

    .

    The chief executive of Kanaloa Hawaii, Tracy Atiga, told RNZ Pacific, said they have already had discussions with New Zealand Rugby about the possibility of joining a new-look Super Rugby tournament.

    New Zealand Rugby is currently examining the future make up of Super Rugby and the international Rugby Championship, with its Aratipu report due to go to the board next week.

    "We would essentially set up our satellite programme which is here in south Auckland to accommodate a second team," said Atiga.

    "So we are not talking about one team that plays in the MLR and then they come and play in Super Rugby - we are talking about two pro teams that would have equally competitive athletes at that level and we would own and operate them in co-ordination with each other," she said.

    Former All Blacks and Wallabies skills coach Mick Byrne would be head coach with former All Black Tamati Ellison assistant coach.

    Jul 13, 2020  /  Sport

    South Auckland base for planned Pasifika super rugby side

    South Auckland base for planned Pasifika super rugby side

    A Pacific Islands Super Rugby team based in South Auckland is gaining traction.

    I am vehemently opposed to an ethnic Franchise based in Auckland.

    I am for splitting Auckland in two geographically.

    But creating an Auckland franchise based on ethnicity, get the fuck out of my life.

    StargazerS 1 Reply Last reply
    5

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