New Lynn knife attack
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[edit - split from the NZ Politics thread]
Ordinary kiwis can’t get home at the moment but terrorist Sri Lankan nationals are tracked rather than booted out on their arse. Total failure of nz security forces.
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@billy-tell said in NZ Politics:
Ordinary kiwis can’t get home at the moment but terrorist Sri Lankan nationals are tracked rather than booted out on their arse. Total failure of nz security forces.
I'd suggest total failure of New Zealand justice system as a whole rather than specifically to the NZ Intelligence Community or the Police. Given he was under 24/7 monitoring by surveillance and STG, I'd say the NZ security services were probably doing as much as they could, but obviously they have to play within the laws that we've got.
But I agree with your sentiment and don't get how we don't have escape clauses in our laws to allow us to turf people like this out.
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@aucklandwarlord said in NZ Politics:
@billy-tell said in NZ Politics:
Ordinary kiwis can’t get home at the moment but terrorist Sri Lankan nationals are tracked rather than booted out on their arse. Total failure of nz security forces.
I'd suggest total failure of New Zealand justice system as a whole rather than specifically to the NZ Intelligence Community or the Police. Given he was under 24/7 monitoring by surveillance and STG, I'd say the NZ security services were probably doing as much as they could, but obviously they have to play within the laws that we've got.
But I agree with your sentiment and don't get how we don't have escape clauses in our laws to allow us to turf people like this out.
Someone needs to ask the hard Qs. If he needs that much surveillance than WTF was he roaming free. All that surveillance and 6 people attacked. A shameful scandalous episode imo.
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@billy-tell said in NZ Politics:
@aucklandwarlord said in NZ Politics:
@billy-tell said in NZ Politics:
Ordinary kiwis can’t get home at the moment but terrorist Sri Lankan nationals are tracked rather than booted out on their arse. Total failure of nz security forces.
I'd suggest total failure of New Zealand justice system as a whole rather than specifically to the NZ Intelligence Community or the Police. Given he was under 24/7 monitoring by surveillance and STG, I'd say the NZ security services were probably doing as much as they could, but obviously they have to play within the laws that we've got.
But I agree with your sentiment and don't get how we don't have escape clauses in our laws to allow us to turf people like this out.
Someone needs to ask the hard Qs. If he needs that much surveillance than WTF was he roaming free. All that surveillance and 6 people attacked. A shameful scandalous episode imo.
I guess there are limits. Its like the woman who is murdered by her ex despite filing a restraining order. Shouldn't bloody happen, obviously he was on high alert if the cops arrived so quick and shot him
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@billy-tell said in NZ Politics:
@aucklandwarlord said in NZ Politics:
@billy-tell said in NZ Politics:
Ordinary kiwis can’t get home at the moment but terrorist Sri Lankan nationals are tracked rather than booted out on their arse. Total failure of nz security forces.
I'd suggest total failure of New Zealand justice system as a whole rather than specifically to the NZ Intelligence Community or the Police. Given he was under 24/7 monitoring by surveillance and STG, I'd say the NZ security services were probably doing as much as they could, but obviously they have to play within the laws that we've got.
But I agree with your sentiment and don't get how we don't have escape clauses in our laws to allow us to turf people like this out.
Someone needs to ask the hard Qs. If he needs that much surveillance than WTF was he roaming free. All that surveillance and 6 people attacked. A shameful scandalous episode imo.
Agree re the roaming free thing. Unacceptable we don't have the law to indefinitely imprison people who pose an extreme risk, just as we do with preventative detention for extreme violence or sexual offenders.
Re the surveillance operation versus number of people attacked - from my past professional life I've got a reasonable working knowledge of surveillance operations, and it's not like the surveillance cops can walk next to the person, especially if he's surveillance savvy (as the press conference said he was) and under 24/7 surveillance - there is a need to keep a distance so he isn't seeing the same faces week in, week out.
Bearing in mind a number of factors, that I can see from the information in the press conference:
- The surveillance cops would have been different to the STG guys carrying the weapons who actually shot the terrorist, (two separate skills sets plus the need to blend in with the general public without carrying bulky weapons), so they would have seen or heard the attack and had to radio the STG guys in.
- They were in a supermarket which even under covid restrictions would have had a few people in there, so the ability to wound multiple people in a short space of time is right there. The element of surprise and targeting more vulnerable people would mean there wouldn't have been much chance for the victims.
- The terrorist used a weapon of opportunity from the shelves - as in, he didn't walk into the supermarket holding a hunting knife, he grabbed a weapon off the shelves, so for all intents and purposes, it probably looked like he was doing his daily shop, hence they kept their distance so as not to alert him that he was being surveilled.
I personally (albeit biasedly) think the Police did a pretty good job to limit the damage to six. The Commissioner said they had shot the guy within 60 seconds of the attack beginning - that's a pretty short space of time to react and end a situation, all things considered.
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This is something the general public should be angry about though, our unworkable suppression of terrorism law and generally soft court system
"Last year, the Crown had sought to prosecute S under the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002, but a High Court judge ruled that preparing a terrorist attack was not in itself an offence under the legislation."
"S was (sentenced) on lesser charges. On May 26 this year, he was (convicted) by a jury of possessing propaganda-style material supportive of Islamic State. He was acquitted on other charges of possessing a graphic video depicting a prisoner being decapitated and possession of an offensive weapon. According to a report in July this year, S has "the means and motivation to commit violence in the community". He was sentenced to one year of supervision"
Supervision for that, when he's previously been seen as having the means and motivation to perpetrate violence on the community? I don't get why if the cops do a poor job, they can be sanctioned by the IPCA, but judges can give out shithouse sentences and release people back into the community in defiance of facts, who go on to do harm, yet there is no comeback.
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I'm not clear about this guy's citizenship/residency status, but presume he obtained one of them before he became known to authorities in 2016. Deporting a resident on national security grounds without criminal convictions is possible (cabinet can do it), but I don't think it's ever happened (the Ahmad Zaoui saga comes to mind...).
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@aucklandwarlord said in New Lynn knife attack:
This is something the general public should be angry about though, our unworkable suppression of terrorism law and generally soft court system
"Last year, the Crown had sought to prosecute S under the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002, but a High Court judge ruled that preparing a terrorist attack was not in itself an offence under the legislation."
"S was (sentenced) on lesser charges. On May 26 this year, he was (convicted) by a jury of possessing propaganda-style material supportive of Islamic State. He was acquitted on other charges of possessing a graphic video depicting a prisoner being decapitated and possession of an offensive weapon. According to a report in July this year, S has "the means and motivation to commit violence in the community". He was sentenced to one year of supervision"
Supervision for that, when he's previously been seen as having the means and motivation to perpetrate violence on the community? I don't get why if the cops do a poor job, they can be sanctioned by the IPCA, but judges can give out shithouse sentences and release people back into the community in defiance of facts, who go on to do harm, yet there is no comeback.
Is the guy a nz citizen? If not, visa cancelled and back to Sri Lanka for you lad. So much money wasted on surveillance, court orders etc for a foreign terrorist.
The good news is that jacinda gets to show her extreme compassion with more hugs of friends and families of the victims.
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@godder said in New Lynn knife attack:
I'm not clear about this guy's citizenship/residency status, but presume he obtained one of them before he became known to authorities in 2016. Deporting a resident on national security grounds without criminal convictions is possible (cabinet can do it), but I don't think it's ever happened (the Ahmad Zaoui saga comes to mind...).
Yip, my thoughts exactly. Or possibly a refugee, which is even harder to deport once granted because of the threats they face in the country they left. Residency can be stripped, but normally requires a serious offence to be committed within a 5 - 10 year period and even then there are rights of appeal.
Given the PM acknowledged she had heard of him before today, it makes me think this guy was probably top of the pile in terms of NatSec threats. Here's hoping the six victims make a full recovery.
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He should have got the treatment the Aussies give to 501's.
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@aucklandwarlord there’s a gap in the laws. The below is an extract from
https://www.treasury.govt.nz/sites/default/files/2021-04/ria-justice-snzc-apr21.pdfIn July 2020, the High Court decision, R v S, found that planning or preparation to carry out a terrorist act is not criminalised in the TSA. New Zealand has obligation under the United Nations Security Council Resolution (UNSCR) 1373 (2001) to criminalise terrorism-related planning or preparation.
This also leaves a gap in our own ability to prevent terrorism. Case studies from agencies highlighted that this gap in the law could hinder their ability to intervene early to prevent a terrorist attack. The judge also noted that “the absence of an offence of planning or preparing a terrorist act (falling short of existing inchoate offences) could be an Achilles heel” and that Australia and the United Kingdom have this offence.
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@act-crusader said in New Lynn knife attack:
In July 2020, the High Court decision, R v S, found that planning or preparation to carry out a terrorist act is not criminalised in the TSA. New Zealand has obligation under the United Nations Security Council Resolution (UNSCR) 1373 (2001) to criminalise terrorism-related planning or preparation.
Definitely. I've heard on good oil that the terrorism suppression act is basically impossible to use. But for clear-cut cases like Tarrant who wrote a manifesto about why he was doing it, it's apparently almost impossible to work within so the Solicitor General (who has to give approval before terrorism charges can be laid) takes an incredibly cautious approach and doesn't approve them.
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@aucklandwarlord agree, he came to NZ in 2011, but after 5 years as a resident, deporting someone requires a 5+ year sentence (or life/preventive detention). After 10 years, it can only be done if they leave for 5 years (in which case the clock starts again) or national security, or if he obtained the original residence visa fraudulently.
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Quoting in part from a Herald paywalled article published on the 16th of August:
The Crown sought to prosecute a 32-year-old man — known only as "S" for legal reasons — under the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002, but a High Court judge ruled that preparing a terrorist attack was not in itself an offence under the legislation.
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The case illustrates a flaw in New Zealand's counterterrorism powers that police and security agencies have long argued constrains their ability to keep the public safe from violent extremists — but which successive governments failed to resolve.
In a July 2020 ruling before S stood trial, which could not be reported until now, Justice Matthew Downs acknowledged there was a serious threat to public safety from "lone wolf" attackers, especially after the Christchurch shootings that killed 51 people and injured 40.
The judge described the absence of an offence of planning a terrorist attack as an "Achilles' heel" hindering the authorities' ability to stop such would-be attackers. But he dismissed the Crown's application to charge S under the anti-terror law, saying it was for Parliament, not the courts, to create an offence of planning an attack.
In a rare move, Justice Downs ordered that a copy of his judgment be sent to the Attorney-General, Solicitor-General and Law Commission.
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Yet 13 months later and we still don't have that law. I don't know heaps about terrorism, but I know a fair bit about implementing other transnational crime law, and it's actually shouldn't be a difficult process to pass in general - there are model laws already written by various relevant IGOs, it's just adapting it to meet your local requirements and then passing it through parliament.
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So for all the talk from Jacinda about hate speech laws to prevent terrorism, the actual law change that can work wasn't prioritised? What the fuck?
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@aucklandwarlord said in New Lynn knife attack:
Yip, my thoughts exactly. Or possibly a refugee, which is even harder to deport once granted because of the threats they face in the country they left.
yeah I always recall in the UK in the early 2000's that extremist with the hook hand, preaching his hate in the UK, couldnt be deported back to Jordan (I think?) because he would be put to death.
In cases like this, I expect there is usually a bit more to it, and sadly bound by seemingly toothless laws in alot of cases.
Just hope all the victims pull through, and glad there is 1 less burden our the NZ Taxpayers, because the 24/7 surveillance must cost a decent chunk - I expect there are others out there under 24/7 surveillance too, if any good comes form this, maybe to change the laws to enable something to be done to prevent this kind of thing.
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@aucklandwarlord said in New Lynn knife attack:
This is something the general public should be angry about though, our unworkable suppression of terrorism law and generally soft court system
"Last year, the Crown had sought to prosecute S under the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002, but a High Court judge ruled that preparing a terrorist attack was not in itself an offence under the legislation."
"S was (sentenced) on lesser charges. On May 26 this year, he was (convicted) by a jury of possessing propaganda-style material supportive of Islamic State. He was acquitted on other charges of possessing a graphic video depicting a prisoner being decapitated and possession of an offensive weapon. According to a report in July this year, S has "the means and motivation to commit violence in the community". He was sentenced to one year of supervision"
Supervision for that, when he's previously been seen as having the means and motivation to perpetrate violence on the community? I don't get why if the cops do a poor job, they can be sanctioned by the IPCA, but judges can give out shithouse sentences and release people back into the community in defiance of facts, who go on to do harm, yet there is no comeback.
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Jacinda saying this guy "doesn't represent any faith" is such a load of shit and just pours petrol on the fire. He follows a version of Islam, sure not the version most Muslims follow but to claim it has nothing to do with it is just fucking bananas. God she's an idiot.
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@no-quarter said in New Lynn knife attack:
So for all the talk from Jacinda about hate speech laws to prevent terrorism, the actual law change that can work wasn't prioritised? What the fuck?
That wouldn't get praise from the global media. Much more effective to focus on banning guns and hate speech